Woke American Ideas are a Threat, French leaders say

[Intell]

France forces migrants to integrate to its culture and customs which is the right approach, you shouldn't  bring in a backwards culture to a liberal western society and expect it to be tolerated.

You know what's "backwards"? Your attitude towards immigration.

Yes people from Muslim countries have a great culture and attitude!

Given what goes on in countries like India and Nepal, such as child marriage, slavery, religious violence, lynchings of dalits, or forcing women on their periods to live in a squalid huts outside of the main home, perhaps we should suppress South Asian cultures in the West as well then

Great Idea! South Asian culture is only slightly less worse than muslim culture.

Genuine question - why do you have a dark red avatar?

Old habits die hard, I guess.

I am proud of my white skin, just as a Chinese is proud of his yellow skin, a Japanese of his brown skin, and the Indians of their various hues from black to coffee-coloured. Anybody who is not proud of his race is not a man at all. And any man who tries to stigmatise the Australian community as racist because they want to preserve this country for the white race is doing our nation great harm... I reject, in conscience, the idea that Australia should or ever can become a multi-racial society and survive.

— Arthur Calwell, leader of Australian Labor Party, 1960-1967

noted white person- me.

[Intell]

France forces migrants to integrate to its culture and customs which is the right approach, you shouldn't  bring in a backwards culture to a liberal western society and expect it to be tolerated.

You know what's "backwards"? Your attitude towards immigration.

Yes people from Muslim countries have a great culture and attitude!

Given what goes on in countries like India and Nepal, such as child marriage, slavery, religious violence, lynchings of dalits, or forcing women on their periods to live in a squalid huts outside of the main home, perhaps we should suppress South Asian cultures in the West as well then

Great Idea! South Asian culture is only slightly less worse than muslim culture.

Genuine question - why do you have a dark red avatar?

I support shifts towards workers control of industry with increased union power, a social wealth fund, and the nationalisation of key sectors of the economy.

[CumbrianLefty]

Good for you. But you also think these things should only be for "white" people?

[Storebought]

Because no bad ideas were ever invented in France?

In any case, why should Macron complain? The correct, and truly French, response to a bad idea is to deconstruct it.

[Хahar 🤔]

If Xahar is a good citizen and his children grows up be good citizens, he can decides to live in his parallel society for all I care. As long as he doesn't cause problem for other, why should I care about his life choices or religious views, and to be honest I would also prefer none of my relatives or children marry a Muslim, so I would be hypocrite for condemning him for sharing my views.

This is a fascinating comment to me because it takes for granted that I belong to a parallel society. I would not recognize that to be true of myself, and I think that anyone who has a real sense of my life would be perplexed by this assertion. It's suggestive of a dichotomy between assimilation, where the only thing left of the past society is a surname, and ghettoization, where the individual of migrant background lives only among and only ever interacts with others of the same background.

To the extent that this dichotomy is taken for granted, it stands to reason that it would be a self-fulfilling prophecy. In some sense it is incomprehensible to me that people would assume such a dichotomy, because it is incomprehensible to the American mind and I am nothing if not American.

[Intell]

Good for you. But you also think these things should only be for "white" people?

I'm not white, so no?

[CumbrianLefty]

Hmmm, even more intriguing

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Tack's comments here remind me of a conversation i had with someone irl who had a novel solution for solving the israel crisis: simply mandate (or heavily subsidize) marriages between Jews and Arabs and sponsor a new syncretic religion that could bind them to create a new ethnicity that could share the territory together. Almost too simple when you think about it!

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Hmmm, even more intriguing

I think Intell is Nepalese, a nation whose precarious position between two interfering behomoths does genuinely present an existential threat. Not sure if France is under the same risk, but it is a national obsession - exactly why anglo saxon culture is a virulent and crass plague but French culture is a international aspiration that everybody secretly wants deep down is anybody's guess.

The issue with French intellectuals is you essentially have a people who don't like Islam - they don't like religion in general and they especially don't like people dissing the french ideal. But they are in a bind, because although they clearly want everybody out, their sense of superiority comes from the fact they have values etc that don't exactly condone mass deportations. So instead they have to do these crazy warped laws intended to sort of inconvenience Islam away.

[JerryArkansas]

The country that committed genocide as long ago as the 1950's doesn't like people to look introspectively at the link between race and religion and the normalised bigotry in society.

[Former President tack50]

Tack's comments here remind me of a conversation i had with someone irl who had a novel solution for solving the israel crisis: simply mandate (or heavily subsidize) marriages between Jews and Arabs and sponsor a new syncretic religion that could bind them to create a new ethnicity that could share the territory together. Almost too simple when you think about it!

For what is worth I also have a very big brain take sometimes on the Israel-Palestine issue; with said solution being that since both sides have failed to reach a reasonable accomodation after 70 years, the UK should take control back with the area becoming a British colony again in perpetuity (or alternatively some sort of UN mandate, don't care too much on the exact specifics other than neither Israel nor the Palestinian Authority would have any sort of sovereignty over the area anymore)

I personally like to call it a "zero state solution".

I also had once a more similar take to your irl friend; where Israel (and Palestine) would have open borders for Christians only and heavily subsidize Christian immigration; essencially splitting the difference between muslims and jews and calling it a day. (of course Arab Christians excluded as they would count as Palestinians, I am thinking of Europeans and people from the Americas here; with perhaps non-muslim Asians allowed too)

Again treat the Israelis and Palestinians like little problematic children. If they can't behave, screw both equally

Needless to say neither would work, but hey, these zero state solutions would get the aim of pissing off both sides equally.

[Kingpoleon]

The country that committed genocide as long ago as the 1950's doesn't like people to look introspectively at the link between race and religion and the normalised bigotry in society.

Are you talking about France or repeating Soviet propaganda?

[Lechasseur]

I think that assimilation and integration are general a good things, but I think the most important things with a immigration are these things:

1: Do the immigrants cause problems or disruptions?

2: How major disruption or problems do they cause?

3: How much do these problems reproduce in the next generations?

If you have a immigrant group which doesn't disrupt things or cause problems, I honestly don't care whether they integrate or assimilate. If we have a group causing some problems but these problems doesn't reproduce next generation, I think you can live with them.

If Xahar is a good citizen and his children grows up be good citizens, he can decides to live in his parallel society for all I care. As long as he doesn't cause problem for other, why should I care about his life choices or religious views, and to be honest I would also prefer none of my relatives or children marry a Muslim, so I would be hypocrite for condemning him for sharing my views.

What you fail to recognize, and I mean this sincerely, is that starting from a basis where you immediately start questioning whether immigrants are "causing problems" is the very source of tension. If you start with the assumption that immigrants will assimilate and that they are mostly good because they are people, they will assimilate because this assumption undergirds some form of birthright citizenship, which has been shown to dramatically improve integration at all levels. There's no serious debate about this!

Europeans who refuse to learn lessons from the immigrant society when dealing with immigration are welcome to do so, just as Americans who decide to believe that guns are good and universal healthcare isn't important are welcome to do so. They will bear a cost for this foolishness but one value of our countries is that we are free to entertain foolish thoughts.

Yep, can confirm, it did quite the number on me

Not having birthright citizenship more or less ruined my life

[CumbrianLefty]

The country that committed genocide as long ago as the 1950's doesn't like people to look introspectively at the link between race and religion and the normalised bigotry in society.

Are you talking about France or repeating Soviet propaganda?

Thought that was fairly clear tbh?

[Cassius]

The country that committed genocide as long ago as the 1950's doesn't like people to look introspectively at the link between race and religion and the normalised bigotry in society.

Are you talking about France or repeating Soviet propaganda?

I presume he’s referring to the massacres in Sétif and Guelma in 1945 - which did not constitute a genocide (regardless of what Algerian nationalist mythographers say) and have also been acknowledged and apologised for by the French government.

[Kingpoleon]

Thought that was fairly clear tbh?

There’s a growing number of online semi tankies who use “We Charge Genocide” in their pseudo intellectual anti-Americanism to compare Jim Crow to the Holocaust. I wanted to clarify which he meant.

[Estrella]

Thought that was fairly clear tbh?

There’s a growing number of online semi tankies who use “We Charge Genocide” in their pseudo intellectual anti-Americanism to compare Jim Crow to the Holocaust. I wanted to clarify which he meant.

Jim Crow? You'd think there's a much more obvious genocide-like event in American history.

[Omega21]

I think that assimilation and integration are general a good things, but I think the most important things with a immigration are these things:

1: Do the immigrants cause problems or disruptions?

2: How major disruption or problems do they cause?

3: How much do these problems reproduce in the next generations?

If you have a immigrant group which doesn't disrupt things or cause problems, I honestly don't care whether they integrate or assimilate. If we have a group causing some problems but these problems doesn't reproduce next generation, I think you can live with them.

If Xahar is a good citizen and his children grows up be good citizens, he can decides to live in his parallel society for all I care. As long as he doesn't cause problem for other, why should I care about his life choices or religious views, and to be honest I would also prefer none of my relatives or children marry a Muslim, so I would be hypocrite for condemning him for sharing my views.

What you fail to recognize, and I mean this sincerely, is that starting from a basis where you immediately start questioning whether immigrants are "causing problems" is the very source of tension. If you start with the assumption that immigrants will assimilate and that they are mostly good because they are people, they will assimilate because this assumption undergirds some form of birthright citizenship, which has been shown to dramatically improve integration at all levels. There's no serious debate about this!

Europeans who refuse to learn lessons from the immigrant society when dealing with immigration are welcome to do so, just as Americans who decide to believe that guns are good and universal healthcare isn't important are welcome to do so. They will bear a cost for this foolishness but one value of our countries is that we are free to entertain foolish thoughts.

Yep, can confirm, it did quite the number on me

Not having birthright citizenship more or less ruined my life

Aren't you French though?

What was the issue, if you don't mind me asking?

[Lechasseur]

I think that assimilation and integration are general a good things, but I think the most important things with a immigration are these things:

1: Do the immigrants cause problems or disruptions?

2: How major disruption or problems do they cause?

3: How much do these problems reproduce in the next generations?

If you have a immigrant group which doesn't disrupt things or cause problems, I honestly don't care whether they integrate or assimilate. If we have a group causing some problems but these problems doesn't reproduce next generation, I think you can live with them.

If Xahar is a good citizen and his children grows up be good citizens, he can decides to live in his parallel society for all I care. As long as he doesn't cause problem for other, why should I care about his life choices or religious views, and to be honest I would also prefer none of my relatives or children marry a Muslim, so I would be hypocrite for condemning him for sharing my views.

What you fail to recognize, and I mean this sincerely, is that starting from a basis where you immediately start questioning whether immigrants are "causing problems" is the very source of tension. If you start with the assumption that immigrants will assimilate and that they are mostly good because they are people, they will assimilate because this assumption undergirds some form of birthright citizenship, which has been shown to dramatically improve integration at all levels. There's no serious debate about this!

Europeans who refuse to learn lessons from the immigrant society when dealing with immigration are welcome to do so, just as Americans who decide to believe that guns are good and universal healthcare isn't important are welcome to do so. They will bear a cost for this foolishness but one value of our countries is that we are free to entertain foolish thoughts.

Yep, can confirm, it did quite the number on me

Not having birthright citizenship more or less ruined my life

Aren't you French though?

What was the issue, if you don't mind me asking?

No I'm not legally

I was born in France and have spent most of my life here, but my dad moved to Belgium for a job when I was 11 and we came back when I was 15, thus I didn't qualify for the naturalization procedure for foreigners born in France.

It severely limited my career prospects (basically forced me to go into business as I couldn't do any public sector work), and I'm at potential risk of deportation if ever I do anything wrong so I always have to watch out.

Quite stressful and also limits my potential to live a fulfilling life (choosing a career because it's the one thing you're legally allowed to do ain't fun). And ofc the career thing is because you need a stable job in order to get naturalized thus you need to pick a career that will allow you to work in the private sector.

The funny thing is even my RN friends don't get why I'm not French.

[Omega21]

I think that assimilation and integration are general a good things, but I think the most important things with a immigration are these things:

1: Do the immigrants cause problems or disruptions?

2: How major disruption or problems do they cause?

3: How much do these problems reproduce in the next generations?

If you have a immigrant group which doesn't disrupt things or cause problems, I honestly don't care whether they integrate or assimilate. If we have a group causing some problems but these problems doesn't reproduce next generation, I think you can live with them.

If Xahar is a good citizen and his children grows up be good citizens, he can decides to live in his parallel society for all I care. As long as he doesn't cause problem for other, why should I care about his life choices or religious views, and to be honest I would also prefer none of my relatives or children marry a Muslim, so I would be hypocrite for condemning him for sharing my views.

What you fail to recognize, and I mean this sincerely, is that starting from a basis where you immediately start questioning whether immigrants are "causing problems" is the very source of tension. If you start with the assumption that immigrants will assimilate and that they are mostly good because they are people, they will assimilate because this assumption undergirds some form of birthright citizenship, which has been shown to dramatically improve integration at all levels. There's no serious debate about this!

Europeans who refuse to learn lessons from the immigrant society when dealing with immigration are welcome to do so, just as Americans who decide to believe that guns are good and universal healthcare isn't important are welcome to do so. They will bear a cost for this foolishness but one value of our countries is that we are free to entertain foolish thoughts.

Yep, can confirm, it did quite the number on me

Not having birthright citizenship more or less ruined my life

Aren't you French though?

What was the issue, if you don't mind me asking?

No I'm not legally

I was born in France and have spent most of my life here, but my dad moved to Belgium for a job when I was 11 and we came back when I was 15, thus I didn't qualify for the naturalization procedure for foreigners born in France.

It severely limited my career prospects (basically forced me to go into business as I couldn't do any public sector work), and I'm at potential risk of deportation if ever I do anything wrong so I always have to watch out.

Quite stressful and also limits my potential to live a fulfilling life (choosing a career because it's the one thing you're legally allowed to do ain't fun). And ofc the career thing is because you need a stable job in order to get naturalized thus you need to pick a career that will allow you to work in the private sector.

The funny thing is even my RN friends don't get why I'm not French.

Wow...

I just don't get how you don't qualify for regular naturalization after so many years of having a legal residence there.

Seems very dumb to me...

Anyway, I hope you make it in the end and get that Passeport

[Lechasseur]

I think that assimilation and integration are general a good things, but I think the most important things with a immigration are these things:

1: Do the immigrants cause problems or disruptions?

2: How major disruption or problems do they cause?

3: How much do these problems reproduce in the next generations?

If you have a immigrant group which doesn't disrupt things or cause problems, I honestly don't care whether they integrate or assimilate. If we have a group causing some problems but these problems doesn't reproduce next generation, I think you can live with them.

If Xahar is a good citizen and his children grows up be good citizens, he can decides to live in his parallel society for all I care. As long as he doesn't cause problem for other, why should I care about his life choices or religious views, and to be honest I would also prefer none of my relatives or children marry a Muslim, so I would be hypocrite for condemning him for sharing my views.

What you fail to recognize, and I mean this sincerely, is that starting from a basis where you immediately start questioning whether immigrants are "causing problems" is the very source of tension. If you start with the assumption that immigrants will assimilate and that they are mostly good because they are people, they will assimilate because this assumption undergirds some form of birthright citizenship, which has been shown to dramatically improve integration at all levels. There's no serious debate about this!

Europeans who refuse to learn lessons from the immigrant society when dealing with immigration are welcome to do so, just as Americans who decide to believe that guns are good and universal healthcare isn't important are welcome to do so. They will bear a cost for this foolishness but one value of our countries is that we are free to entertain foolish thoughts.

Yep, can confirm, it did quite the number on me

Not having birthright citizenship more or less ruined my life

Aren't you French though?

What was the issue, if you don't mind me asking?

No I'm not legally

I was born in France and have spent most of my life here, but my dad moved to Belgium for a job when I was 11 and we came back when I was 15, thus I didn't qualify for the naturalization procedure for foreigners born in France.

It severely limited my career prospects (basically forced me to go into business as I couldn't do any public sector work), and I'm at potential risk of deportation if ever I do anything wrong so I always have to watch out.

Quite stressful and also limits my potential to live a fulfilling life (choosing a career because it's the one thing you're legally allowed to do ain't fun). And ofc the career thing is because you need a stable job in order to get naturalized thus you need to pick a career that will allow you to work in the private sector.

The funny thing is even my RN friends don't get why I'm not French.

Wow...

I just don't get how you don't qualify for regular naturalization after so many years of having a legal residence there.

Seems very dumb to me...

Anyway, I hope you make it in the end and get that Passeport

In theory I've qualified since I was 20, but in practice no because the government generally won't naturalize students as they only want people with jobs, and ofc I happened to have graduated during the worst crisis since WWII...

Thanks

[Lechasseur]

But yeah if anyone's been asking themselves the question why I've moved very considerably left in the last year or so, it's mainly due to this issue+economic devastation from Covid

[Kingpoleon]

Thought that was fairly clear tbh?

There’s a growing number of online semi tankies who use “We Charge Genocide” in their pseudo intellectual anti-Americanism to compare Jim Crow to the Holocaust. I wanted to clarify which he meant.

Jim Crow? You'd think there's a much more obvious genocide-like event in American history.

That’s not exactly the 1950s.

[parochial boy]

Meanwhile, the French approach to regional languages:

https://twitter.com/Francebleubzh/status/1362080694529368076

(the argument the minster is giving us: No need to give Breton lessons to students who already speak it!)
🙃

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Meanwhile, the French approach to regional languages:

https://twitter.com/Francebleubzh/status/1362080694529368076

(the argument the minster is giving us: No need to give Breton lessons to students who already speak it!)

Maybe the ministry should also consider not giving French lessons to students who already speak it, while they're at it. Lmao