Woke American Ideas are a Threat, French leaders say

[Samof94]

It's okay, Europeans have their own equally stupid but probably more dangerous forms of identity politics.


Is anyone else a bit tired of how the word "woke" is being used now? What the hell does it even mean? Like "identity politics", it's another scare word or term that means whatever you want it to mean.

France has had its own Northern Ireland in Corsica. Brittany is kind of their Wales but with even worse linguistic discrimination.

And their Scotland is the Occitan areas on this comparison, presumably.

Exactly. They are more like Spain than the rest of France.

[Clarko95 📚💰📈]

It's okay, Europeans have their own equally stupid but probably more dangerous forms of identity politics.


Is anyone else a bit tired of how the word "woke" is being used now? What the hell does it even mean? Like "identity politics", it's another scare word or term that means whatever you want it to mean.

Not really. Wokeness = ID politics

Okay then just say "identity politics"

[cp]

It's okay, Europeans have their own equally stupid but probably more dangerous forms of identity politics.


Is anyone else a bit tired of how the word "woke" is being used now? What the hell does it even mean? Like "identity politics", it's another scare word or term that means whatever you want it to mean.

So true. Same applies to 'cancelling', btw.

Not to forget the dreaded ‘cultural Marxism’.

Mind you, people on left and centre have been chucking terms like fascist and Nazi around like snuff at a wake for so long it’s hardly surprising the right fires back with it’s own demonology.

Given the way things have played out on the right over the past few years, those epithets seem rather prescient!

[vileplume]

I'm not saying that "woke American ideas" would be a solution, but France somehow manages to be even worse at handling its societal divisions than America. The US has the American dream - something which is and has always been completely disconnected from reality, but at least it gives people hope. What does France have? Laïcité for thee but not for me, an extremely centralist state and an elitist political and cultural class that refuses to acknowledge that discrimination exists. No wonder that France has a massive radicalization problem. If you create a class of people that are consistently discriminated against and yelled at every day from all sides about how they don't belong there and how it's impossible for them to ever integrate, well of course they're gonna get angry and some of them will turn into extremists.

It's an excellent example of magical thinking, really. It's as if waving a wand and punishing people for speaking Occitan (as it was in the past) or wearing a hijab (as it is now) will suddenly turn a deeply fractured country into France une et indivisible.

Honestly, after seeing a magazine publish an article where some old white guy fantasized about selling a black politician into slavery, I've been convinced that American SJWism can't be worse than whatever is happening in France now.

It's instructive to note that British Muslims largely hail from places that are far more "conservative" than the ancestral homes of French Muslims (Pakistan as opposed to the Maghreb), and yet Muslims are thoroughly integrated into British society while they remain perpetually on the margins of French society. French might argue that this is because these outsiders are unworthy of their superior culture or that they have some kind of special respect for human dignity, but all of the rest of us can see this for what it is. Credulous foreigners will accept anything if you dress it up as anti-Americanism, as you can see in the moronic statement immediately above this one, as if France is not already "broken apart".

A comment posted on the LRB blog a few months ago is indicative of the French form of racism:

Also as it happens, after moving from the UK to the US and living there for many years (where I taught feminist theory among other things), I moved to France and am now a French citizen. I can certainly testify to the knee-jerk anti-Americanism of many French academics (whatever their politics), and also to the conviction that 'becoming French' requires rejecting your former culture - that French culture is a precious gift bestowed on the deserving but benighted immigrant. Anecdotally, I recall having an argument some time ago with one of the people who signed the Manifesto of 100, who was convinced that living in France meant recognizing that French culture and values were superior and superseded everything else. (This was in the context of a government proposal to offer Arabic classes in the schools, which he vehemently opposed.) But when I said that I didn't see why I should reject Shakespeare and Purcell, or for that matter the Beatles and Martin Amis, he was quite taken aback - he knew perfectly well that he was arguing with a white 'Anglo-Saxon', but his entire position presupposed that the newly French person was Arab, African, or from some other place with no 'culture' to speak of. A purely colonial attitude, as Raul Zweiregen points out. He literally had no answer to my objection, since he knew perfectly well that he couldn't say 'Oh, but I didn't mean you' without exposing himself as a hypocrite.

https://blog.lrb.co.uk/blog/2020/november/the-fish-rots-from-the-head

It is not enough that France has already colonized these places; the minds of their people must remain colonized forever.

Unfortunately that statement is completely untrue. Whilst integration of Muslims in the UK is better than in France it's by no means great and Muslim communities exist rather separately from the rest of society and tend to mix mainly within their own religious/ethnic community. Whilst there is a fairly decent representation of Muslims/people of a Muslim background in the upper echelons of British politics (Sadiq Kahn, Sajid Javid, Sayeeda Warsi etc.) this masks the distinct lack of integration in much of the rest of society. Honestly the USA (despite its many faults) does integration far better than Europe.

[CumbrianLefty]

The position isn't great in some parts of the UK, I agree.

But lets get this clear, we are still in a *much* better position on this than France is.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

An interesting contrast can be seen in attitudes towards the instruments of state regarding counter-terrorism policy and so on: relations between the vast majority of British Muslims and the police are basically fine,* and a high proportion of Islamists convicted of terrorism offences are convicted based on evidence supplied by family members. The situation in France is... well, it's not like that.

_{*Largely because, this issue aside, they really don't have much contact. Asians are not (these days) that likely to be on the receiving end of police harassment and crime rates amongst all Asian minorities are low and concentrated at the non-violent end. People often get confused by the high proportion of British prisoners who are Muslim: they are overwhelmingly converts, often converting whilst inside.}

[EastAnglianLefty]

Also worth noting that conversion to Islam in prisons is for many prisoners about getting slightly better food (as it's mistakenly believed that more is spent per person on halal food.) There were similar fads for converting to Mormonism and Orthodox Judaism in the past (the official policy for the Prison Service recognising the latter makes it very difficult, largely because the kosher food genuinely does cost more per meal, though I'm not sure the quality is any better.)

In some prisons, those dietary converts have got a nasty shock when it turns out their radicalised co-religionists actually try to enforce religious adherence and in particular take a decidedly dim view of prisoners using drugs or smuggled in alcohol.

[ingemann]

UK have send as many foreign fighters to Syria as France even through UK have half as many Muslims as France. The main difference between Muslims in UK versus France is that there’s fewer of them and the British establishment care even less about the native population who are forced to live among them than the French establishment does. I couldn’t imagine a single other European country where the police hadn’t dealt with Rotterham grooming gangs, even Sweden the PC capital of Europe the police would have dealt with them, even if they had done so in silence.

So the answer is not that the Muslims of UK are better behaved, but that UK is a worse country than France and with a far worse elite, and as such the awfulness of British Muslims are less obvious than their counterparts in France.
 

[Estrella]

UK have send as many foreign fighters to Syria as France even through UK have half as many Muslims as France. The main difference between Muslims in UK versus France is that there’s fewer of them and the British establishment care even less about the native population who are forced to live among them than the French establishment does. I couldn’t imagine a single other European country where the police hadn’t dealt with Rotterham grooming gangs, even Sweden the PC capital of Europe the police would have dealt with them, even if they had done so in silence.

So the answer is not that the Muslims of UK are better behaved, but that UK is a worse country than France and with a far worse elite, and as such the awfulness of British Muslims are less obvious than their counterparts in France. 

I wanted to say how I Can't Believe It's Not a Fuzzy Post!™, but this is way past even him. Closer to Klartext, maybe? (remember him?)

[CumbrianLefty]

So the Idea that the Muslims in the UK are the most Integrated in Europe is ridiculous, by any serious metric, unless you want to go by how many hijabis there are on the Bake Off or something.

Which might be a point worth making had anyone claimed that, but they didn't.

(of course I agree about our indulgence of jihadis pre-2005, but that's a slightly different thing)

[Хahar 🤔]

Yes, it stands to reason that policies intended to erase a group's identity provide evidence of superior "integration" if "integration" is defined specifically as the erasure of group identity. As a Muslim with no desire to marry outside my religious group, I suppose I am an example of the failure of integration.

But I guess it's pointless to try to address a post that looks at white nationalist invective and criticizes only that some casual errors of fact mar the point. The fact that I have ingemann on ignore means that he made post (or several) many years ago to lead me to that point, but it's nice to see so many other posters in this thread telling on themselves.

[Former President tack50]

Yes, it stands to reason that policies intended to erase a group's identity provide evidence of superior "integration" if "integration" is defined specifically as the erasure of group identity. As a Muslim with no desire to marry outside my religious group, I suppose I am an example of the failure of integration.

Yes. This, but unironically. You are indeed a failure of integration for that

I would indeed define successful integration as you know, "behaving French", adopting French customs, speaking French at home, etc. There are definitely tons of different ways of "being French", but looking at urutzizu's statistics I would indeed consider that France is doing a much better job at integrating its muslim population than the UK; though I am open to statistics that show the opposite.

And no, it is not white nationalism to suggest that. To bring an Spanish example, there is a reason why black Cubans, Dominicans or Colombians are often considered to be better integrated than much whiter Moroccans. It is not a matter of race, it is a matter of culture technically.

[parochial boy]

What I will say is that the idea that there is an inherent contradiction between the idea "I identify with the culture of my parents' homeland" and "I feel like I am a part of the society of the country I grew up in" is an unfathomably depressing, and actually downright scary, one. And I have a migration background, so I actually know what I am talking about here.

[Red Velvet]

Yes, it stands to reason that policies intended to erase a group's identity provide evidence of superior "integration" if "integration" is defined specifically as the erasure of group identity. As a Muslim with no desire to marry outside my religious group, I suppose I am an example of the failure of integration.

Yes. This, but unironically. You are indeed a failure of integration for that

I would indeed define successful integration as you know, "behaving French", adopting French customs, speaking French at home, etc. There are definitely tons of different ways of "being French", but looking at urutzizu's statistics I would indeed consider that France is doing a much better job at integrating its muslim population than the UK; though I am open to statistics that show the opposite.

And no, it is not white nationalism to suggest that. To bring an Spanish example, there is a reason why black Cubans, Dominicans or Colombians are often considered to be better integrated than much whiter Moroccans. It is not a matter of race, it is a matter of culture technically.

Race does have a significant influence on integration, but I agree that culture is by far the most defining factor and inflicts majority of the conflicts.

And by “culture”, it’s usually (almost always) religion differences.

[Хahar 🤔]

I would indeed define successful integration as you know, "behaving French", adopting French customs, speaking French at home, etc.

Why is this desirable?

[Estrella]

I would indeed define successful integration as you know, "behaving French", adopting French customs, speaking French at home, etc.

Please define.

[Red Velvet]

I would indeed define successful integration as you know, "behaving French", adopting French customs, speaking French at home, etc.

Why is this desirable?

Depends on what you believe. Some say a national identity is important in order to have social cohesion, a narrative that unites all the different segments of the population in a common ground they have in order to favor of the country interests and a sense of peace. Otherwise people will fight themselves.

Every country has their own national identity, otherwise what really is a country other than a random piece of land that has a bunch of people with nothing in common that hate each other, having to live with one another?

Problem with France is not that it’s trying to protect their national identity, but their misguided strategy in order to achieve that goal. But other countries are also hypocrites in their construction of different internal narratives and identities, so no one can really judge France too hard imo.

France only gets that much attention because their national identity have strong particularities and are very different than the one constructed in America for example.

[EastAnglianLefty]

I don't see that the language used at home necessarily matters, providing that they're able to speak the national language fluently.

There is a issue with some older Muslim (primarily Pakistanti) women in the UK not speaking English well, because it limits their ability to have an active life outside the home. There's no issue with a kid using Urdu at home and being fluent enough to get a GCSE in it - it's functionally the same as white couples who bring up their kids to be bilingual, which nobody has an issue with.

[CumbrianLefty]

Yes, it stands to reason that policies intended to erase a group's identity provide evidence of superior "integration" if "integration" is defined specifically as the erasure of group identity. As a Muslim with no desire to marry outside my religious group, I suppose I am an example of the failure of integration.

Yes. This, but unironically. You are indeed a failure of integration for that

I would indeed define successful integration as you know, "behaving French", adopting French customs, speaking French at home, etc. There are definitely tons of different ways of "being French", but looking at urutzizu's statistics I would indeed consider that France is doing a much better job at integrating its muslim population than the UK; though I am open to statistics that show the opposite.

And no, it is not white nationalism to suggest that. To bring an Spanish example, there is a reason why black Cubans, Dominicans or Colombians are often considered to be better integrated than much whiter Moroccans. It is not a matter of race, it is a matter of culture technically.

Race does have a significant influence on integration, but I agree that culture is by far the most defining factor and inflicts majority of the conflicts.

And by “culture”, it’s usually (almost always) religion differences.

Siberia, China and Japan (mostly) have "no religion"?? Hmmm.

Yes they are largely secular, but on that basis most of W Europe should be grey as well.

[Former President tack50]

I would indeed define successful integration as you know, "behaving French", adopting French customs, speaking French at home, etc.

Why is this desirable?

Like Red Velvet says, it helps with national cohesion and what not. I will recognize that from the immigrant's perspective it is very tough, particularly when the cultural and values gap is so big but it is still an objective that should be pursued.

Not going to lie, the "I would not marry a non-muslim" is one very disturbing to me. That is exactly how you end up with ghettos and discrimination. I know we all have our preferences, but there is a reason why when people see an integrated group of people that has a healthy mix of white French and immigrants they don't really care; while when they have an exclusively immigrant group segregated from French society (to the point of not even speaking French properly!) you start getting people to be supportive of Le Pen style policies.

I would indeed define successful integration as you know, "behaving French", adopting French customs, speaking French at home, etc.

Please define.

Yeah fair, perhaps I went a bit too broad there. Still, urutzizu's statistics all show very good metrics of success and failure in integration; with perhaps the best one to me being the "interfaith friendships" one; as well as the more simple "religiousness" one (most ""white"" Europeans are extremely secular and so shoudl immigrants).

What I will say is that the idea that there is an inherent contradiction between the idea "I identify with the culture of my parents' homeland" and "I feel like I am a part of the society of the country I grew up in" is an unfathomably depressing, and actually downright scary, one. And I have a migration background, so I actually know what I am talking about here.

I mean, for early generations of immigrants I get your point, but in countries like the UK or France they've been there since the 1950s, so the idea is genuinely contradictory?

In my mind for first generation immigrants such an idea is not contradictory, and even for their children it is hard but I guess passable. However the grandchildren should definitely identify with the country they live in as they are literally the same as any other person, just with a weird surname maybe.

For your own example, your parents could identify with their country they were born in, you (and your siblings) only 50%; and any kids you have should identify as exclusively Swiss for instance.

[Cassius]

I would indeed define successful integration as you know, "behaving French", adopting French customs, speaking French at home, etc.

Please define.

https://youtu.be/SBHjSsjWuM4

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

@tack50 literally what the f**k

1. Wait you're serious about Xahar's life choices? Wanting to marry within one's faith group is... standard religious practice. That in itself has little to do with self-ghettoization or whatever.

2. Religiousness is for the most part irrelevant. Most "native" Europeans are largely secular... and so? Do you believe that those who aren't are less 'integrated'? Of course you think immigrants 'should' be secular, that's what you think about people in general!

3. I mean, what are you even talking about? So you think e.g. Sprouts should not identify as Italian American? Your phrasing sounds almost like "hey erasing identities is good, actually".

4. I think instead parochial boy's eventual kids should do the f**k they want.

[kaoras]

I would indeed define successful integration as you know, "behaving French", adopting French customs, speaking French at home, etc.

Please define.

Eating frogs and being "romantic with women" of course, much like adopting Spanish customs means learning Flamenco and being into corridas de toros.

Well, I chat a lot with Spaniards about politics, and Tack positions don't surprise me in the slightest. Is almost amusing how much hate some people have for things like regional languages, and those are things that are, you know, from Spain itself. You can guess their opinions about inmigration.

[Former President tack50]

@tack50 literally what the f**k

1. Wait you're serious about Xahar's life choices? Wanting to marry within one's faith group is... standard religious practice. That in itself has little to do with self-ghettoization or whatever.

2. Religiousness is for the most part irrelevant. Most "native" Europeans are largely secular... and so? Do you believe that those who aren't are less 'integrated'? Of course you think immigrants 'should' be secular, that's what you think about people in general!

3. I mean, what are you even talking about? So you think e.g. Sprouts should not identify as Italian American? Your phrasing sounds almost like "hey erasing identities is good, actually".

4. I think instead parochial boy's eventual kids should do the f**k they want.

1) Yeah, I'll apologize if it comes off as too judgemental of life choices which was not my intention (same goes with parochial_boy). I am aware it is standard religious practice but it is one that does still lead to ghettoization and marginalization? Being standard practice does not mean it is good practice. If all muslims marry among each other, well, that creates an "us vs them", "in vs out group" dynamic very fast.

I hope I don't have to explain why such dynamics are bad.

2) I am not going to lie; I would genuinely give religious Christians a "free pass" or at least condemn that less because European countries have all been historically Christian. It is far from ideal and may make me seem a bit of a hypocrite but whatever.

Of course, France is a country that makes secularism by far a huge part of its national identity; so part of "being French" certainly involves leaving religion at home (which includes not wearing christian necklaces, or head veils, or turbans, etc).

3) The US have a very different approach to immigration than European countries and I am not sure of what Sprouts family history is.

However, assuming he has the "standard" parents came home in the early 1900s and does not have anything Italian about him other than perhaps a surname; yes, I don't think he should really identify as Italian-American.

I am not fully against hyphenated identities for people who came as kids, or who have both parents born abroad, but by the time you get to grandchilcren, shouldn't they identify fully with the country they were born and raised in, instead of a country they have literally nothing in common other than a surname (and often not even this!) and having very distant relatives?

In general, I think "When in Rome, do as Romans do" is a good policy to have.

[Former President tack50]

I would indeed define successful integration as you know, "behaving French", adopting French customs, speaking French at home, etc.

Please define.

Eating frogs and being "romantic with women" of course, much like adopting Spanish customs means learning Flamenco and being into corridas de toros.

Well, I chat a lot with Spaniards about politics, and Tack positions don't surprise me in the slightest. Is almost amusing how much hate some people have for things like regional languages, and those are things that are, you know, from Spain itself. You can guess their opinions about inmigration.

Ironically I am very much in favour of regional languages and regional autonomy

I think a model like the Basque one is the ideal one (where parents can choose what language do they want their kids to have classes in). But this is offtopic.

"Behaving French" is an extremely tough thing to describe, but I imagine it would involve having a healthy mix of (ethnically) French friends for example; which was one of the things urutzizu's poll measured. I hope I don't have to explain why ghettos and lack of interaction between ethnic groups are bad!