When will Stone Mountain be sandblasted?

[R.P. McM]

snip

Look, just going to make a few things clear.
The African slave trade was a very multifaceted thing caused by economics, while the Holocaust was not (mainly) economics-driven. In fact, it occurred somewhat in spite of economics - resulting to the largest degree because of Nazi ideology.
The bulk of the African slave trade, in terms of where slaves arrived, was in fact Brazil and the Carribbean, so any death toll from the triangular trade (even if one be reputably estimated) would have to be divided among those two areas, Spanish continental Latin America, and the Antebellum South. And not necessarily equally among those four geograpical areas.

A sizable amount of the blame for the slave trade happening has to be put at the feet of local elites in West Africa, who emptied out large swatches of the region for sake of greed, and in fact a majority of deaths related to or linked to the triangular trade were done by Africans to Africans, as just the latest manifestation of the millennia-old slave trade in Western Africa, with the Europeans being the customers, buying those slaves for their own greedy self-serving reasons. The text I copied in seems to mention an estimation of 4 million who died in the process of bringing those slaves to the ports (excluding those who died while young), over a 300 year period - who do you think was dealing those deaths? Europeans?

[...]

Yeah, I'm going to be perfectly honest: this is a terrible hill to die on. You sound like David Irving or David Duke. Normally, I'm willing to entertain controversial, counterintuitive, iconoclastic arguments. But this is simply beyond the pale. I think you're imagining that I give a s*** that west African tribes sold their enemies to Caucasian slave traders. No, that doesn't lessen the moral culpability of the latter in the slightest.

I'll go further. I remember our arguments about the composition of the Senate and Supreme Court. We were at odds, but respectfully so. Now, you're just confirming every nasty thing I've said about the opposition over the past four years. So disappointing.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

snip

Look, just going to make a few things clear.
The African slave trade was a very multifaceted thing caused by economics, while the Holocaust was not (mainly) economics-driven. In fact, it occurred somewhat in spite of economics - resulting to the largest degree because of Nazi ideology.
The bulk of the African slave trade, in terms of where slaves arrived, was in fact Brazil and the Carribbean, so any death toll from the triangular trade (even if one be reputably estimated) would have to be divided among those two areas, Spanish continental Latin America, and the Antebellum South. And not necessarily equally among those four geograpical areas.

A sizable amount of the blame for the slave trade happening has to be put at the feet of local elites in West Africa, who emptied out large swatches of the region for sake of greed, and in fact a majority of deaths related to or linked to the triangular trade were done by Africans to Africans, as just the latest manifestation of the millennia-old slave trade in Western Africa, with the Europeans being the customers, buying those slaves for their own greedy self-serving reasons. The text I copied in seems to mention an estimation of 4 million who died in the process of bringing those slaves to the ports (excluding those who died while young), over a 300 year period - who do you think was dealing those deaths? Europeans?

[...]

Yeah, I'm just going to be perfectly honest: this is a terrible hill to die on. You sound like David Irving or David Duke. Normally, I'm willing to entertain controversial, counterintuitive, iconoclastic arguments. But this is simply beyond the pale. I think you're imagining that I give a s*** that west African tribes sold their enemies to Caucasian slave traders. No, that doesn't lessen the moral culpability of the latter in the slightest.

I'll go further. I remember our arguments about the composition of the Senate and Supreme Court. We were at odds, but respectfully so. Now, you're just confirming everything nasty thing I've said about the opposition over the past four years. So disappointing.

1. I'm not saying the Europeans are in any better moral position here because of the fact they were not the sole facilitators. I'm saying there's plenty of blame to be spread around, the triangular trade was an economic system first and foremost, and if you want to connect the resulting death toll from the inhumanity of what resulted to anything Stone Mountain-related you have to do adjustments from the overall total. Quite a different beast from an industrial genocide in the 20th century driven, as I have mentioned earlier, by mass extermination of "undesirables", at the expense of the war effort and the broader economy.
Also, you seem to be implying something get a get-out-of-immorality-free-card just for being economics driven. No that isn't how it works. Antebellum slavery was a cruel system rightfully put out of its misery in the Civil War, and the triangular trade was rightfully brought to an end by the Royal Navy and other factors. Never thought I'd have to, you know, specify my position, but hey...
Taking all this in, you'd only get "David Duke" in there if you had that preconceived notion and you read it with that in mind and blocked out your mind from all other possibilities.
2. I'm not "the opposition". I'm on the same team as you are, somehow.

[P. Clodius Pulcher did nothing wrong]

It'll be a long time. But we'll get it done regardless, and Rushmore too!

[Fuzzy Bear]

It'll be a long time. But we'll get it done regardless, and Rushmore too!

Just so long as we can remove the statue of the anti-Semite Malcolm X from Columbia University.

I'd certainly not want to be deprived of the privilege of taking down monuments I find objectionable.  I'll start working on my list.  You're OK with that, right?

[Badger]

Tons of non white Atlantans go to Stone Mountain every day to hike, have family get togethers or participate in other outdoor activities.

As for the carving, I don't have a problem with it being sandblasted, but I'd much rather we put a bunch of famous black Georgians in a circle around the traitors, smiling and laughing.

You know, this could actually work. And that design of smiling figures of MLK, John Lewis - - not sure there's one existing of Lincoln smiling-- and so on would be an awesome juxtaposition without ruining the artistic integrity of the original Stone Mountain mural.

[Badger]

Ridiculous analogy coming around this forum that the Confederacy was analogous to the Holocaust - the historical record is clear on this issue, western expansion was the genocide of the time, not imported slave labor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judah_P._Benjamin

That is completely unfounded. As in utterly. Simply put, both killed millions in the name of white supremacy. Attempting to somehow" disprove " that with a Wikipedia article pointing out that the Confederacy included one prominent political leader who was Jewish is.... Beyond inane.

Seriously, the whole point being here as best I can tell is that the Holocaust was arguably more efficient and deadly. So if the very smart smart geniuses who seem to hear this Theory can tell me how many millions of people need to be slaughtered by a white supremacist ideology before we decide it's inappropriate to maintain public monuments to their political and military leaders? Serious question. We've already determined that 10 million killed by the Nazis is too much to maintain pro-nazi public monuments, but apparently others killing only in the low-to-mid single-digit millions like slavery means Confederate monuments apparently get a pass. Would love to hear from these posters to how many Millions being killed are necessary to cross that threshold.

[Alcibiades]

If we are worried about ruining the Artistry in Grandeur of the mural, it could be reconfigured to include people like John Lewis, MLK and Abraham Lincoln in terms of a dedication Two Georges contribution to the Civil Rights struggle. Include a light show even showing the march across the Pettus Bridge instead of Confederates Galloping on a charge against the Damn Yankees.

The wolf course meaning of stone mountains current tourists wouldn't be interested, most not even remotely, in visiting and equally monumental and artistic dedication for such a divergently different - - even though far more noble - - historical record. The vast majority of people who visit Stone Mountain do so as a pilgrimage Shrine of the Confederacy and all it stood for.

And that's probably the best argument as to why Stone Mountain needs to end as a Confederate Monument.

lol

Its just a giant tourist trap lmao right next to Atlanta. That along with some nice hiking trails and other stuff. Its literally the most visited location for Georgia tourists and there aren't hordes of White Americans thinking this is their Mecca or something.

You poor deluded Soul. Are you really so naive I still think that pernio Confederates this isn't happy place? You really think the same people would attend if they suddenly change it to a mural of MLK, John Lewis, and Abraham Lincoln? Do you really have it cluelessness unironically post at?

If you're worried about tourist Revenue, there'd be increased tourism from African Americans in Pro civil rights whites. Whitmore the point, we shouldn't give a s*** about the people who would no longer attend it wasn't about the Lost Cause.

Seriously, that is a painfully obtuse post on your part.

The vast majority of people who visit the monument do so as part of a visit to a park which includes hiking, camping, golf, lakes, a tourist train, holiday events, and other random stuff. I think it's a very safe bet these people don't care whether it's Robert E Lee or Ulysses Grant or Winfield Scott on the side of the mountain. There is nothing about Stone Mountain that would make it a magnet for some white power neo-Confederate pilgrimage. In fact, having to pay admission and wade through crowds of families makes a pretty poor spot for that.

Including very many (minority families!)

Citation badly needed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/09/19/stone-mountain-the-ugly-past-and-fraught-future-of-the-biggest-confederate-monument/

Demographic changes in DeKalb County mean that a majority of visitors on any given day are African Americans or immigrants.

“Most people who come don’t seem to think about it at all,” said John Bankhead, spokesman for the Stone Mountain Memorial Association.

Most visitors interviewed recently agreed: Confederate history hadn’t been on their minds as they rode the gondola or the scenic railroad. But the park has been the site of white-supremacist rallies in recent years. The memorial association denied a KKK group a permit to burn a cross at the park as recently as August, citing public safety concerns.

Is it bad that I find the idea of a group of Klansmen obediently going through the necessary bureaucracy to try to burn a cross darkly humorous?

[Samof94]

Pretty simple meme tier question .

It’s be tough for sure, but it is not there is a mountain in Germany of Hitler, Goebbels and Rommel riding in a motorcade.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Would cost too much of taxpayers dollars to do that.

Yeah, it would cost a ton of money to lose a ton of tourist dollars. Ultimately, money talks and most of the other Confederate monuments that get torn down are liabilities. This is not.

Eventually a plaque will be added giving more context and maybe some sort of monument to key black figures in the area will be built in the park, but that's where it ends.

[SInNYC]

Rebrand it as a monument to evil.
Maybe stick a 'museum of inhumanity' at its base with exhibits on Hitler, Tamerlane, ISIS, and the like.

[Indy Texas 🇺🇦🇵🇸]

When the only thing you know about Stone Mountain is about 1915 film Birth of a Nation from your Film Studies gen ed class.

So educate us great unwashed as to what we're missing here.

The fact that the majority of people who visit Stone Mountain are regular tourist families who want to hike somewhere outside, see a cool laser light show or some large sculpture. Very few of the people who visit Stone Mountain now are full fledged racists.

They can do all of those things without the sculpture there (or with it replaced by a different sculpture).

[Badger]

When the only thing you know about Stone Mountain is about 1915 film Birth of a Nation from your Film Studies gen ed class.

So educate us great unwashed as to what we're missing here.

The fact that the majority of people who visit Stone Mountain are regular tourist families who want to hike somewhere outside, see a cool laser light show or some large sculpture. Very few of the people who visit Stone Mountain now are full fledged racists.

They can do all of those things without the sculpture there (or with it replaced by a different sculpture).

This. What if they replaced that giant Monument with one of civil rights leaders like can, John Lewis, even Lincoln? First off, you probably get a lot more African American tourists who even if they're not repelled by the current monuments would be more interested in coming to see it, laser show at all.

And bluntly put, even if some whites don't come there anymore because they feel all butthurt over celebrating those people instead of Giants of "southern culture", honestly, who cares? F*** them. Seriously, why should we care what the type of asshats who now chose not to attend a beautiful state park because a giant Monument is now a civil rights leaders instead of leaders of the Confederacy sink? It's the right thing to do.

 and if the monument supposedly isn't racist, then there would presumably be very few such people who no longer attend, right?

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

If we are worried about ruining the Artistry in Grandeur of the mural, it could be reconfigured to include people like John Lewis, MLK and Abraham Lincoln in terms of a dedication Two Georges contribution to the Civil Rights struggle. Include a light show even showing the march across the Pettus Bridge instead of Confederates Galloping on a charge against the Damn Yankees.

The wolf course meaning of stone mountains current tourists wouldn't be interested, most not even remotely, in visiting and equally monumental and artistic dedication for such a divergently different - - even though far more noble - - historical record. The vast majority of people who visit Stone Mountain do so as a pilgrimage Shrine of the Confederacy and all it stood for.

And that's probably the best argument as to why Stone Mountain needs to end as a Confederate Monument.

lol

Its just a giant tourist trap lmao right next to Atlanta. That along with some nice hiking trails and other stuff. Its literally the most visited location for Georgia tourists and there aren't hordes of White Americans thinking this is their Mecca or something.

You poor deluded Soul. Are you really so naive I still think that pernio Confederates this isn't happy place? You really think the same people would attend if they suddenly change it to a mural of MLK, John Lewis, and Abraham Lincoln? Do you really have it cluelessness unironically post at?

If you're worried about tourist Revenue, there'd be increased tourism from African Americans in Pro civil rights whites. Whitmore the point, we shouldn't give a s*** about the people who would no longer attend it wasn't about the Lost Cause.

Seriously, that is a painfully obtuse post on your part.

The vast majority of people who visit the monument do so as part of a visit to a park which includes hiking, camping, golf, lakes, a tourist train, holiday events, and other random stuff. I think it's a very safe bet these people don't care whether it's Robert E Lee or Ulysses Grant or Winfield Scott on the side of the mountain. There is nothing about Stone Mountain that would make it a magnet for some white power neo-Confederate pilgrimage. In fact, having to pay admission and wade through crowds of families makes a pretty poor spot for that.

Including very many (minority families!)

Citation badly needed.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/retropolis/wp/2017/09/19/stone-mountain-the-ugly-past-and-fraught-future-of-the-biggest-confederate-monument/

Demographic changes in DeKalb County mean that a majority of visitors on any given day are African Americans or immigrants.

“Most people who come don’t seem to think about it at all,” said John Bankhead, spokesman for the Stone Mountain Memorial Association.

Most visitors interviewed recently agreed: Confederate history hadn’t been on their minds as they rode the gondola or the scenic railroad. But the park has been the site of white-supremacist rallies in recent years. The memorial association denied a KKK group a permit to burn a cross at the park as recently as August, citing public safety concerns.

Is it bad that I find the idea of a group of Klansmen obediently going through the necessary bureaucracy to try to burn a cross darkly humorous?

Moreso, when you consider that one reason there is Stone Mountain State Park is that by condemning the land to make it a State Park, it got rid of the easement that the previous owners had given the KKK to hold rallies there.

[Santander]

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/14/a-park-celebrating-the-pro-slavery-confederacy-faces-a-reckoning

Doesn't look like it will happen in the next few years. The new (black) chairman has no interest in removing the sculpture, but would like to change some of the names in the park, and add exhibits on black and Native American history. Basically, the park is a business that continues to evolve to cater to as broad a customer base as possible.