Most obnoxious example of “whataboutism”
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  Most obnoxious example of “whataboutism”
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Question: Which of these examples of “whataboutism” is the most obnoxious?
#1
The claim that Bill Clinton’s accusations of rape nullify Trump’s
 
#2
The claim that Obama building the cages nullifies Trump caging kids
 
#3
The claim that Sanders voting for the crime bill nullifies Biden writing it
 
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Total Voters: 31

Author Topic: Most obnoxious example of “whataboutism”  (Read 1044 times)
darklordoftech
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« on: January 25, 2021, 06:53:45 PM »

?
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Big Abraham
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« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2021, 07:32:29 PM »

I don't think any legitimate practitioner of "whataboutism" is saying any of these preceding statements nullify the latter—it's simply a rhetorical exercise in deflection
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Alben Barkley
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« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2021, 07:35:09 PM »

The third one is not a whataboutism. Sanders based his whole campaign on being consistently more righteous and ahead of everybody else throughout his career, always taking bold principled stands even when it was unpopular. His supporters frequently cited the crime bill as a criticism of both Biden and Hillary (who didn't even vote for it as she was not in office at the time) in explicit contrast to Bernie Sanders and his supposedly flawless record. It's not a whataboutism to point out this makes no sense because Sanders did in fact vote for the bill. Whataboutism is more like when you bring up something completely different when accused of something to say "We all have done bad things, so what's the difference?" Classic example being the Soviet Union bringing up racism in the US every time their atrocities were criticized. It's not the same as being called out for being a hypocrite who did exactly the same thing you are criticizing your opponents for and are claiming moral superiority over.
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Vosem
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2021, 07:41:46 PM »

I don't think the second one is whataboutism; there was a concerted effort to paint the immigration policy as something which Trump invented or was uniquely responsible for, which wasn't true.

The first example is very obnoxious, though, because obviously any two individuals' rape accusations are different issues which don't have anything to do with each other. Pointing attention to the dissonant ways in which some specific person analyzed them might be valid for understanding that person, but few of the people condemning Trump for his scandals were actually very defensive of Clinton.

The third one seems to be in between the first two. While it is certainly relevant that Sanders voted for the bill if he wants to blame Biden for its contents, it is easy to imagine considerations that might've led Sanders to vote for it (fear of a worse replacement) in spite of disapproval of its contents.

Your first example is the most obnoxious.
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BRTD
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2021, 07:53:16 PM »

Only the first one is a true whataboutism.

Personally I think the weirdest and most obnoxious is anti-anti-Trump leftists trying to deflect criticism of Trump by bringing up George W. Bush, as if partisan Democrats also didn't hate his ass. Yes I'm aware it's mostly directed at people like the Lincoln Project but they make up a very small percentage of Trump haters.
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darklordoftech
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« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2021, 08:20:30 PM »
« Edited: January 25, 2021, 10:29:33 PM by darklordoftech »

Personally I think the weirdest and most obnoxious is anti-anti-Trump leftists trying to deflect criticism of Trump by bringing up George W. Bush, as if partisan Democrats also didn't hate his ass.
Whataboutist arguements are based on the logical fallacy that if you hate person A, you must like person B. It’s possible to hate every President from Reagan on equally.
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John Dule
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« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2021, 08:31:57 PM »

Only the first one is a true whataboutism.

Personally I think the weirdest and most obnoxious is anti-anti-Trump leftists trying to deflect criticism of Trump by bringing up George W. Bush, as if partisan Democrats also didn't hate his ass. Yes I'm aware it's mostly directed at people like the Lincoln Project but they make up a very small percentage of Trump haters.

To be fair, the recent attempts to rehabilitate GWB deserve all the pushback they get. His appearances on late-night talk shows and his "lovable antics" whenever he attends a public event simply make me nauseous. Trump may have been a worse president than Bush, but Bush's presidency is absolutely one of the worst eight years America has ever had to endure. Anyone looking back on the 2000s with rose-tinted glasses needs their eyesight checked.
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BRTD
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2021, 09:24:15 PM »
« Edited: January 25, 2021, 09:30:46 PM by Now We Are Free »

Only the first one is a true whataboutism.

Personally I think the weirdest and most obnoxious is anti-anti-Trump leftists trying to deflect criticism of Trump by bringing up George W. Bush, as if partisan Democrats also didn't hate his ass. Yes I'm aware it's mostly directed at people like the Lincoln Project but they make up a very small percentage of Trump haters.

To be fair, the recent attempts to rehabilitate GWB deserve all the pushback they get. His appearances on late-night talk shows and his "lovable antics" whenever he attends a public event simply make me nauseous. Trump may have been a worse president than Bush, but Bush's presidency is absolutely one of the worst eight years America has ever had to endure. Anyone looking back on the 2000s with rose-tinted glasses needs their eyesight checked.

I don't disagree with any of that. I mean voting against GWB was the first Presidential vote I ever cast. But it's possible to argue against any attempt to rehabilitate GWB without basically saying "Trump wasn't that bad" or "Trump shouldn't be criticized because GWB was a bad President too." Just say the simple truth: That both of their Presidencies were utter disasters.
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darklordoftech
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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2021, 10:14:04 PM »
« Edited: January 25, 2021, 10:18:56 PM by darklordoftech »

The third one is not a whataboutism. Sanders based his whole campaign on being consistently more righteous and ahead of everybody else throughout his career, always taking bold principled stands even when it was unpopular. His supporters frequently cited the crime bill as a criticism of both Biden and Hillary (who didn't even vote for it as she was not in office at the time) in explicit contrast to Bernie Sanders and his supposedly flawless record. It's not a whataboutism to point out this makes no sense because Sanders did in fact vote for the bill. Whataboutism is more like when you bring up something completely different when accused of something to say "We all have done bad things, so what's the difference?" Classic example being the Soviet Union bringing up racism in the US every time their atrocities were criticized. It's not the same as being called out for being a hypocrite who did exactly the same thing you are criticizing your opponents for and are claiming moral superiority over.
But I saw a tendency to assume that anyone who pointed out that Biden wrote the crime bill must be a Bernie supporter when they could just as easily have been a Booker or Warren supporter, and if someone truly considered voting for the crime bill to be disqualifying, they wouldn’t have supported Biden or Bernie. If Booker or Warren said, “Biden, you wrote the crime bill. Bernie, you voted for it. I did neither”, I would have applauded.
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LAKISYLVANIA
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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2021, 05:49:15 AM »

write-in: The claim that the BLM riots (or Antifa) nullifies the Capitol hill riots
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Sir Mohamed
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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2021, 09:46:24 AM »

write-in: The claim that the BLM riots (or Antifa) nullifies the Capitol hill riots

Couldn't agree more. You might add violence from white supremacists to just Capitol riots.
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Nathan
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« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2021, 11:23:18 AM »

I agree with Vosem's analysis here. My personal write-in, though, is the conservative Catholic "BUT ABORTION" deflection from Trump's immigration/environmental/welfare/labor/(etc. etc. etc.) policies--not because it's a uniquely inane or irrelevant point to bring up, but because it's had a uniquely toxic effect on environments and movements about which I care deeply.
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Alcibiades
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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2021, 11:27:38 AM »

I agree with Vosem's analysis here. My personal write-in, though, is the conservative Catholic "BUT ABORTION" deflection from Trump's immigration/environmental/welfare/labor/(etc. etc. etc.) policies--not because it's a uniquely inane or irrelevant point to bring up, but because it's had a uniquely toxic effect on environments and movements about which I care deeply.

I of course agree that the focus on abortion above all of Trump’s egregious actions is ridiculous, but if one truly views abortion as murder, then you can understand why they might ignore all other issues as paling in comparison to abortion in terms of significance.
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Nathan
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2021, 11:32:46 AM »
« Edited: January 26, 2021, 11:36:04 AM by Away, haul away, we'll haul away, Joe! »

I agree with Vosem's analysis here. My personal write-in, though, is the conservative Catholic "BUT ABORTION" deflection from Trump's immigration/environmental/welfare/labor/(etc. etc. etc.) policies--not because it's a uniquely inane or irrelevant point to bring up, but because it's had a uniquely toxic effect on environments and movements about which I care deeply.

I of course agree that the focus on abortion above all of Trump’s egregious actions is ridiculous, but if one truly views abortion as murder, then you can understand why they might ignore all other issues as paling in comparison to abortion in terms of significance.

I'm not disputing that; I know people who voted for Trump for that reason and I don't think less of them for it (or, at least, not as much less as I think of other Trump voters). But there is a current in the American Church that has been overtly colonized by Gamergate, the alt-right, QAnon, and MAGA--Frank Pavone retweeting Proud Boy slogans, Abby Johnson in the Capitol mob, Bishop Strickland going full anti-vaxxer and speaking at the Jericho March, that one priest in Wisconsin justifying lynching in his homilies about how it's a sin to believe in systemic racism, etc. etc.--and using "BUT ABORTION" to deflect from that is an entirely different beast to using it to justify an unenthusiastic, lesser-evil Trump vote.
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buritobr
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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2021, 04:21:00 PM »

One of the worst for me: the claim that Lula had good relations with the governments of Cuba and Venezuela nulify Bolsonaro's speeches glorifying soldiers who committed torture and executions and making false claims of rigged elections
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