Thoughts on Pope Francis?

[TheReckoning]

?

[Hindsight was 2020]

Massive FF

[If my soul was made of stone]

Massive FF by the standards of religious leaders

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

I'm a staunch Francis supporter both within and not within the Catholic Church. I think he understands things about the need to live together as a real human community that almost no other current world leader does, and I admire that he advances this without obvious sops to secular do-gooderism. There's obviously plenty I could criticize but it's heavily outweighed by the stuff I strongly support.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

I have much admiration for Francis, I pretty much agree with all Nathan said.
This would be the part where I say something about Italian politics and about Francis pushing back against the degrading tendencies most notably personified by The Senator That Shall Not Be Named, but maybe this is not the right board for that.

[kaoras]

I don't have much sympathy for him after he said that a Chilean city that opposed the naming of a bishop involved in covering sexual abuses suffered because they were dumb and easily deceived by "zurdos" (a derogatory term for leftists).https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MJ-arsR7kE


https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pope-francis-accuses-chile-sex-abuse-victims-of-slander/

Now, of course, everything said about that bishop ended up being true and he resigned, Francis apologized blablabla. And then he proceeded to name another 2 bishops that were also involved in covering sexual abuses...

[afleitch]

Ask me when his successor is appointed.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Francis getting a significantly more skeptical-to-hostile reception in Latin America than he does in many other parts of the world--for some very good reasons--actually reminds me a little of the Dalai Lama. To Westerners Tenzin Gyatso is an uncomplicatedly admirable symbol of serenity and compassion, but in intra-Tibetan politics he takes hard-nosed, sometimes deeply conservative or even cold-hearted stances that make him a much more polarizing figure. Today's crop of vaguely-left-aligned religious leaders just tend not to be heroes in their hometown.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

I don't have a strong opinion on him, but it's fascinating how every serious Catholic that I've talked with offline has a highly critical one. That wasn't the case with Ratzinger and it certainly wasn't the case with JPII.

JPII and Benedict didn't rock the boat when it came to the American Church's cozy relationship with Republican politics, and certainly didn't have the open-secret personal distaste for the United States and its culture that Francis has.

[Xeuma]

Francis getting a significantly more skeptical-to-hostile reception in Latin America than he does in many other parts of the world--for some very good reasons

Could you expand on this? I can't imagine its the same reasons many American Catholics take issue with him.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Francis getting a significantly more skeptical-to-hostile reception in Latin America than he does in many other parts of the world--for some very good reasons

Could you expand on this? I can't imagine its the same reasons many American Catholics take issue with him.

kaoras has listed a big one above. There's also the issue of his early involvement with right-wing regimes in Argentina prior to his theopolitical evolution in the 80s and 90s, the fact that some of his left-ish stances as Pope such as his highly positive attitude towards indigenous cultures are just as controversial among Catholics in Latin America as they are in the US, etc.

[Lexii, harbinger of chaos and sexual anarchy]

Francis getting a significantly more skeptical-to-hostile reception in Latin America than he does in many other parts of the world--for some very good reasons

Could you expand on this? I can't imagine its the same reasons many American Catholics take issue with him.

kaoras has listed a big one above. There's also the issue of his early involvement with right-wing regimes in Argentina prior to his theopolitical evolution in the 80s and 90s, the fact that some of his left-ish stances as Pope such as his highly positive attitude towards indigenous cultures are just as controversial among Catholics in Latin America as they are in the US, etc.

Here in Argentina it's largely because of his involvement in regular politics, making and breaking alliances with influential politicians as soon as it was politically expedient for him and often on what looked like little more than a whim, both as Archbishop and as Pope
He is also good friends with a bunch of the most disliked (and often some of the most openly corrupt or stupid) politicians of the country, like the Moyano family and Juan Grabois

[Chips]

FF.

[Spark]

My holy father is a massive FF on the environment (Laudato Si), human rights, gay marriage. He's much better than Benedict XVI.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Not a fan, but he's not my primus inter pares, so I don't have to live with him.

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

     Not a fan, but he's not my primus inter pares, so I don't have to live with him.

Now that you mention it, how do you feel about Bartholomew? He's rarely discussed on the forum.

[Associate Justice PiT]

     Not a fan, but he's not my primus inter pares, so I don't have to live with him.

Now that you mention it, how do you feel about Bartholomew? He's rarely discussed on the forum.

     I don't think he is doing a good job. He abuses his power and is trying to transform his episcopal throne into something representing the Catholic See of Rome, claiming privileges that are not his and arguing for a change in ecclesiology.

     He also has made a number of worrying statements suggesting that he is close to sealing the deal on reunification with the Catholic Church, which does not seem realistic at all given the substantial differences in theology. If we can't even heal the Chalcedonian Schism, I definitely do not think we can heal the Great Schism.

     He also has this weird tendency to appoint bishops to dioceses where they have no experience with the flock there and cannot properly gauge their pastoral needs. The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America should have an American bishop. Instead, Americans get somebody who has no understanding of the situation on the ground here.

     There is probably more I could say, but I think that answers your question.

[Kingpoleon]

JPII and Benedict didn't rock the boat when it came to the American Church's cozy relationship with Republican politics, and certainly didn't have the open-secret personal distaste for the United States and its culture that Francis has.

Considering the times that the CIA funneled money through the Vatican Bank, it’s hardly surprising that Francis and other Catholics are a bit suspicious of America.

[John Henry Eden]

All things considered? An ok pontiff

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

All things considered? An ok pontiff

I'm surprised to hear this from someone with a Pat Buchanan-themed signature. Not sure if it's bad surprised or good surprised.

[Statilius the Epicurean]

I saw this on my feed which is interesting:

https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/1358189002667491328

Also somewhat related, what are the arguments against admitting female deaconesses? I know they're referred to in Paul's letters so shouldn't it be a no brainer?

[DC Al Fine]

I don't follow his pontificate all that closely, so only two incidents stand out in my memory. First, Pachahama which made me, like most Protestants chuckle, and which at least made some folks more aware of certain excesses in the Catholic approach to evangelism. Second was the concordat with Chinese genocidaires, which I found infuriating.

Overall, not his biggest fan, but as PiT, he's not my Bishop/Elder, so *shrug*.

[DC Al Fine]

Also somewhat related, what are the arguments against admitting female deaconesses? I know they're referred to in Paul's letters so shouldn't it be a no brainer?

The Orthodox Presbyterian Church produces a very handy Q&A about why they teach what they teach on all sorts of topics. They produced one on the all-male diaconate years ago. Now the Catholic arguments will probably be at least somewhat different, not least because Catholics and Reformed Protestants have different conceptions of the office of Deacon, but it still makes for a solid primer on their arguments.

[Kingpoleon]

Also somewhat related, what are the arguments against admitting female deaconesses? I know they're referred to in Paul's letters so shouldn't it be a no brainer?

Paul’s letters also refer to a woman, Junia, as “Apostle” - a title reserved for less than twenty people in Scripture. Furthermore, I believe some people allege that Phoebe and Junia were actually men with male names that were mistranslated.