Who is a Celt? (user search)
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  Who is a Celt? (search mode)
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Author Topic: Who is a Celt?  (Read 695 times)
Statilius the Epicurean
Thersites
Junior Chimp
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Posts: 5,609
United Kingdom


« on: January 12, 2021, 10:24:56 PM »
« edited: January 12, 2021, 10:41:53 PM by Statilius the Epicurean »

I believe most experts think the Proto-Celts broke away into their own separate group (possibly/probably a split with the Italics who went south) in an area around modern day Austria, making that a sort of “Celtic homeland.”  

That was a 19th century hypothesis linking the ethnogenesis of the Celtic language with the Hallstatt culture but it has pretty much been decisively refuted as relying on misreadings of Greco-Roman authors and tenuous identifications between archaeological and linguistic evidence. We don't really know where the Celtic Urheimat was, but somewhere in France (centrally-located for our attested spread of Celtic languages, fits with what later Roman authors say) or northern Italy (where our earliest inscriptions are and closest to its nearest linguistic neighbour, Italic) are reasonable.

As for genetics, the last major replacement wave in western Europe, that of the bronze metallurgists from the Ukrainian steppe carrying the aforementioned R1b, happened somewhere around a thousand years before the expansion of the Celtic language (maybe). Possibly it can be identified with proto-Indo-European, but even this shouldn't be taken too far because for example modern Basque men have R1b at 87.1%, and they obviously don't speak an Indo-European language. The relationship between genetics, language and material culture in prehistorical societies is waaaaaaay too complicated and obscure for anyone to have figured out a model of how they interfaced.
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Statilius the Epicurean
Thersites
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,609
United Kingdom


« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2021, 05:49:08 PM »
« Edited: January 13, 2021, 05:52:45 PM by Statilius the Epicurean »

For example, I already mentioned R1b-L21 for Celtic peoples migrating to the British Isles and Ireland

Like I said, this genetic marker colonised the British Isles (Ireland is part of btw) more than 1,000 years before we have any evidence of a Celtic language existing. There is no reason to link the two. People have tried in a lately fashionable theory that the Beaker people were proto-Celts but it relies on comparing different sets of linguistic, genetic and archaeological data that are thousands of years apart from each other and suffers all sorts of problems.

I don't think there's any reason to expect paleogenetics to have anything to do with Celtic ethnic identity as we understand it today or previously in the historical era. R1b-L21 is just evidence of Bronze Age trade and migration patterns for societies that have been lost to prehistory.
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