Opinion of Ronald Reagan? (user search)
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  Opinion of Ronald Reagan? (search mode)
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Author Topic: Opinion of Ronald Reagan?  (Read 9037 times)
Alcibiades
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E: -4.39, S: -6.96

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« on: January 11, 2021, 06:11:11 AM »

I tried to think of one problem in contemporary American governance and public life that couldn’t trace it’s origins to this administration and his little plutocratic revolution.
I came up with ‘Well we probably can’t pin Covid on him.’



A good part of the problem is a lot of people, some of whom had a very tense relationship with Reagan at various points, taking its legacy and shilling it with their spin on it.

Reagan made some mistakes, but he was far more strategic in his thinking and much more competent then 99% of Republican politicians today.

I’m not sure he was particularly competent. He was notoriously not a details man and his administration was the pretty corrupt, not to mention his cognitive decline. Even if he was competent, being competent at doing bad things (or ignoring inconvenient problems such as the AIDS epidemic) does not make him a good president.
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Alcibiades
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Political Matrix
E: -4.39, S: -6.96

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« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2021, 02:58:04 PM »

A president can be an HP and still be a good president.

I don't think Reagan was an HP. But I also think he wasn't a great president. He is very much overrated and gets too much credit and not enough blame for the things that happened during (and right) after his time in office.



He’s overrated by Republicans, but the Democrats on this Thread are acting like he’s the reincarnation of Hitler.


On character, Reagan started his campaign outside Philadelphia, MS (site of the Mississippi Burning murders of civil rights activists) with a speech on states' rights. He called African politicians monkeys in a leaked phone conversation with then President Nixon. He failed to respond to the AIDS epidemic because his party was apathetic toward gay people (even if he wasn't personally homophobic). In retrospect we can peg him as a prejudiced man who inflamed situations when he should have been a leader.



Mississippi was a swing state in 1980 and the event he was speaking at was one of the top political fairs in Mississippi so of course he would speak there. Also actually read the states rights speech instead of just looking at one soundbite and you will see the only time he was referencing states rights came to economics in the speech not civil rights



I think his audience understood perfectly well what he meant by “states’ rights”, the most infamous racial dogwhistle in all politics.
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Alcibiades
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Posts: 3,885
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Political Matrix
E: -4.39, S: -6.96

P P
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2021, 05:39:46 PM »

What do you think a political scientist does TheReckoning?

These rankings are actually generally done by historians, so they’re even less scientific. (This is not to try to discredit the discipline in any way, in fact I loathe natural scientists who engage in humanities-bashing and think they’re so superior, but it is just simply not quantifiable or falsifiable in the way even a social science study might be, let alone a natural science one.)
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Alcibiades
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Posts: 3,885
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Political Matrix
E: -4.39, S: -6.96

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« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2021, 06:33:29 PM »

The fact that the Democrats on this board are calling the 7th best president ever (according to independent analysts) a HP show they aren’t as objective as they think.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/02/19/opinion/how-does-trump-stack-up-against-the-best-and-worst-presidents.html


I wanted to agree with you but then I clicked on that link.

That survey has JFK at 16 which is hysterically bad and Truman at 6?!?! (uh No). LBJ shouldnt be near the Top 10. If this was purely domestic then okay but Vietnam drops him into the 20's.

I think Reagan was a hypocirte in many areas especially on the deficit.

I do think he was a good if not GREAT President for the 8 years he was in office and I guess thats what the rankings are judging but his economic policies have led to DECADES of middle class decline

Go check out the rankings by independents. They are a bit more fair, I believe, since they get partisanship out of the way.

I also think that these are meant to be rankings extending past their presidency’s as well, since Reagan’s standing in these surveys have increased post-presidency (not remained the same, as would be true if he was only judges on his presidency itself).

I’m not sure how including Reagan’s post-presidency would improve his ranking, seeing as he had Alzheimer’s for most of it, so was not exactly active compared to say, Jimmy Carter.
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Alcibiades
YaBB God
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Posts: 3,885
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Political Matrix
E: -4.39, S: -6.96

P P
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2021, 02:06:12 PM »

HP. He ushered in the neoliberal era that we are in today.

Lmao what???

LBJ was the first Neolib president, no question.

Lol, what is this take. LBJ was the most economically left-wing President of the post-WWII era.
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Alcibiades
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 3,885
United Kingdom


Political Matrix
E: -4.39, S: -6.96

P P
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2021, 06:35:14 PM »

I could list all the bad things Reagan did as President, or all the corrosive impacts he’s had in the years since, but I think that would be missing the ultimate point as to why I think he was such an HP.

The Reagan political playbook (utilised to immense success) was ultimately based off demonising the vulnerable: poor people, black people, unions, industrial workers, and gay people, to name some of his favourite groups to pick on. I would contend that choosing easy targets such as these to appease the middle class majority who felt somehow threatened by and/or jealous of them is the epitome of cowardice, and why Reagan completely lacked the qualities required to be a truly great leader.

As much as people bemoan the the current culture war alignment (and I think Elliott County, KY, voting for the right-wing candidate while Darien, CT, votes for the more left-wing one is just as insane as anyone), I think it is better than the Reagan-era class alignment. Reagan very successfully, using the above strategy, gathered up the affluent suburbanites (ranging from the merely centre-right in the burbs of places such as Philadelphia and Chicago, to his rabidly right-wing base in Orange County and the Sunbelt), as well as the legendary Reagan Democrats, who had got a bit of money, and desperately wanted to feel middle class, which they did by joining in with the bashing of marginalised groups. I think this gets at some of the irony that MT Treasurer hints at in the link to the article in his excellent post above (although Youngstown was never really representative of that group in the same way as Macomb was), as well as the obvious future echoes to the Trump era.

But this is why the Reagan coalition was so toxic; it was, in essence, like a completely rigged game, with the confident and upwardly mobile majority against the voiceless, marginalised, substantial minority. It was like high school bullying, and, somewhat perversely, this was apparently manifested in the high school culture and politics (especially in middle-class and affluent suburbia) of the 1980s (I have heard a number of people talk about this, ranging from 90s indie rockers talking about going to high school in the 80s in interviews to Badger on this forum), a reflection of the stifling conformity of the decade in which outsiders were relentlessly picked on. I have often thought that being a liberal or a poor kid or other social outcast in a well-off section of 80s Orange County* as a teenager must have ranked as among the most hellish social experiences possible. Fortunately, that suburban world is now dead as these places have greatly diversified. In his book Which Side Are You On?, Thomas Geoghegan talks about organised labour as being the counterculture of the 80s. I think there is a certain forlorn beauty in these macho middle-aged men in a dying subculture being the #Resistance of their day, but at the same time it captures the hopelessness of being on the wrong side in Reagan’s America.

FF and much better President than everyone since.

I’m surprised that you think so highly of Reagan, considering how you’ve spelt out your vision of a Republican Party which is a sensible check on the more outlandish currents within the Democratic (a vision which I have a lot of sympathy for, even if I think it is a bit optimistic given the party’s current state). It was Reagan after all, who destroyed any hope for this kind of GOP; while the Rockefeller faction had passed its sell-by date at that point, it was by no means inevitable that the GOP had to end up as a coalition of the various particularly toxic elements Reagan worked to bring together, including the Religious Right (whom, remember, Goldwater hated with a passion) and the white resentment/ex-segregationist Southern crowd; there was of course frequent overlap between the two. Not to mention, of course, Reagan being the first to pursue (again, very successfully) the kind of fact-free, responsibility-free rhetoric which has come to define the modern GOP, to again reference MT Treasurer. I think it is a stretch to say that Trump is Reagan’s spiritual successor, but by no means inaccurate to say that, without Reagan, the kind of GOP which gave rise to Trump would not have been possible.

*The irony is that movement conservatism, which ultimately succeeded in mostly overturning the New Deal Order, would have never have existed without the Sun Belt suburbs, which never would have existed without the massive investment and development the New Deal brought to the South and West. Similarly, the Reagan Democrats, in their desperate quest to be truly middle class, voted for a man who helped destroyed the ladder from working class to middle class.
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