Is Catholicism Christianity?

[100% pro-life no matter what]

For me, it's very clearly option 4.  In order to be saved, we need to have personally accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, which some Catholics have.

I was raised Catholic because my dad is Catholic and my mom, while raised Baptist, is a self-proclaimed atheist.  I left the Catholic Church somewhere around age 14 or 15 (originally to become non-religious before accepting Christ as an Evangelical Protestant at age 21).  But, when I was in that church, I almost never heard discussion around needing to accept Christ as our personal savior or the need to be born again.  I never heard pleas to read your Bible outside of hearing the readings from the priest.  The Catholic Church, in my experience, worships both Mary and the many saints, almost bordering on polytheism.  Prayer is also never between you and God in that church, but rather requires you to pray to an intermediary, such as a saint- and likewise, the requirement of confessing sins to a priest, rather than going directly to God, reeks of ritual/religion, instead of faith.  Jesus is certainly mentioned, which is why I believe that some Catholics could come to being saved.  But, the Catholic Church does not inherently lead its followers towards salvation in Christ, which is why I've come to the conclusion (really only in the last year or so) that Catholicism isn't truly Christianity at all.

ETA: I forgot perhaps the biggest shortcoming of the Catholic Church- the Pope.  Believing that any one man could be infallible is massive idol worship and putting him on the same level as the Lord.

[Diabolical Materialism]

For me, it's very clearly option 4.  In order to be saved, we need to have personally accepted Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior, which some Catholics have.

I was raised Catholic because my dad is Catholic and my mom, while raised Baptist, is a self-proclaimed atheist.  I left the Catholic Church somewhere around age 14 or 15 (originally to become non-religious before accepting Christ as an Evangelical Protestant at age 21).  But, when I was in that church, I almost never heard discussion around needing to accept Christ as our personal savior or the need to be born again.  I never heard pleas to read your Bible outside of hearing the readings from the priest.  The Catholic Church, in my experience, worships both Mary and the many saints, almost bordering on polytheism.  Prayer is also never between you and God in that church, but rather requires you to pray to an intermediary, such as a saint- and likewise, the requirement of confessing sins to a priest, rather than going directly to God, reeks of ritual/religion, instead of faith.  Jesus is certainly mentioned, which is why I believe that some Catholics could come to being saved.  But, the Catholic Church does not inherently lead its followers towards salvation in Christ, which is why I've come to the conclusion (really only in the last year or so) that Catholicism isn't truly Christianity at all.

This is a grossly simplistic understanding of the concept of intercession. In addition, I don't know where you're getting this idea that it's required for prayer.

[RFayette]

I am not a Catholic and never have been, but as I understand it, the Catholic church does teach that we are saved by grace through faith in Christ.  They do teach the deity of Christ, the bodily resurrection, and the trinity.  That seems sufficient in my eyes to be considered a Christian church, even if I do have significant disagreements especially regarding Mary (though they don't worship her) and justification by faith alone. 

[°Leprechaun]

Yes, but the question should be are Protestants heretics in the eyes of Catholics,
and visa versa are Catholics heretics in the eyes of Protestants?

Many Protestants agree with Catholics on certain dogma, such as the Trinity.
Although, Protestants have rejected the Catholic Canon of the Bible.
(They have an abridged version of the Bible).

The word "heretic" is a very insulting word to use against a fellow Christian,
and yet many Christians carelessly use it against other Christians.
If you don't believe in certain dogma like the Trinity you are a heretic, for example.
It's quite disturbing actually. The Orthodox dogma of Reformed Christians and
of Roman Catholics was used to persecute other Christians with more heterodox
interpretations of Christianity (gnostics, Sabellians, ancient universalists etc.)
and in modern times many Christian denominations are accused of heresy...

Christian Science, Jehovah's Witnesses, Latter Days Saints, Swedenborgians etc. etc. etc.

It would seem to me each sect cherry picks it's own verses to prove that it is the correct version. I also don't think Christians can adequately explain all the contradictions in the Bible without taking the position that a lot of the Bible shouldn't be taken literally.

[Alcibiades]

Obviously yes (atheist, sane)

[KaiserDave]

@Nathan!

Looking forward to his content

Anyways

(Yes, Agnostic)

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

I just can't

[Antonio the Sixth]

ayy lmao

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

If Catholicism isn't Christianity then the word has no meaning, unless you believe in the completely ahistorical and evidence-free Trail of Blood theory. In other words, nobody whose understanding of history wasn't completely off the sh**ts on self-serving revisionism could possibly believe that the medieval Church wasn't Christian, unless they were willing to bite the bullet and say that Christianity was founded by Luther.

[100% pro-life no matter what]

Could I please ask those who disagree with my conclusion to at least engage with my points?

If Catholicism isn't Christianity then the word has no meaning, unless you believe in the completely ahistorical and evidence-free Trail of Blood theory. In other words, nobody whose understanding of history wasn't completely off the sh**ts on self-serving revisionism could possibly believe that the medieval Church wasn't Christian, unless they were willing to bite the bullet and say that Christianity was founded by Luther.

I don't know enough to pinpoint an exact date, but, at some point (and I would guess it happened very gradually as to be unnoticeable to the average person), the Catholic Church got so wrapped up in its rituals, traditions, and church history as to put that on the same level as the scripture itself.  In fact, they truly reject a "sola scriptura" viewpoint in favor of relying on church tradition.  That really reminds me of the Pharisees from Jesus's day.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't there a prohibition until sometime in the 20th Century on lay Catholics even reading the Bible on their own?

Maybe I am biased by my experience where I truly think the Catholic Church was a big part of what led me to atheism as a teenager, but these don't seem like minor stylistic issues to me, but, rather big ticket, theologically consequential differences.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

The sola scriptura thing is one of the weaker anti-Catholic arguments but for some reason Evangelicals always act like it's a slam dunk. The early Church manifestly did not have a codified New Testament yet--any reading of the Ante-Nicene Fathers will show you that almost immediately--so clearly there's some source of authority in the Church that precedes (as in literally precedes, chronologically) the canon of scripture that we have today. Considering that the canon was hashed out in a series of councils and synods in which mostly bishops participated, anybody interested in upholding the authority of the Bible would need additionally to uphold the authority of at least the first few centuries of the episcopate...but most to all of those early bishops also believed in a high Christology and a high Mariology, veneration of martyrs, real presence, and a whole host of other Catholic doctrines that most Protestants reject.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Could I please ask those who disagree with my conclusion to at least engage with my points?

I think SlamDunk and RFayette did that enough?

I don't know enough to pinpoint an exact date, but, at some point (and I would guess it happened very gradually as to be unnoticeable to the average person), the Catholic Church got so wrapped up in its rituals, traditions, and church history as to put that on the same level as the scripture itself.

This really seems like some lame way to handwave your feelings about the Church. And why should this make it 'not Christian'?

In fact, they truly reject a "sola scriptura" viewpoint in favor of relying on church tradition. That really reminds me of the Pharisees from Jesus's day.

See Nathan's comment.

[Diabolical Materialism]

Could I please ask those who disagree with my conclusion to at least engage with my points?

I think SlamDunk and RFayette did that enough?

I don't know enough to pinpoint an exact date, but, at some point (and I would guess it happened very gradually as to be unnoticeable to the average person), the Catholic Church got so wrapped up in its rituals, traditions, and church history as to put that on the same level as the scripture itself.

This really seems like some lame way to handwave your feelings about the Church. And why should this make it 'not Christian'?

In fact, they truly reject a "sola scriptura" viewpoint in favor of relying on church tradition. That really reminds me of the Pharisees from Jesus's day.

See Nathan's comment.

To be fair I didn't really engage with his posts meaningfully, I just said that his understanding of intercession is incomplete.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Could I please ask those who disagree with my conclusion to at least engage with my points?

I think SlamDunk and RFayette did that enough?

I don't know enough to pinpoint an exact date, but, at some point (and I would guess it happened very gradually as to be unnoticeable to the average person), the Catholic Church got so wrapped up in its rituals, traditions, and church history as to put that on the same level as the scripture itself.

This really seems like some lame way to handwave your feelings about the Church. And why should this make it 'not Christian'?

In fact, they truly reject a "sola scriptura" viewpoint in favor of relying on church tradition. That really reminds me of the Pharisees from Jesus's day.

See Nathan's comment.

To be fair I didn't really engage with his posts meaningfully, I just said that his understanding of intercession is incomplete.

And that his idea that any time we pray an intermediary to God is required is wrong. But yeah, I guess I hyperbolized a bit, that's certainly not everything that could be said.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Lol.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Could I please ask those who disagree with my conclusion to at least engage with my points?

I think SlamDunk and RFayette did that enough?

I don't know enough to pinpoint an exact date, but, at some point (and I would guess it happened very gradually as to be unnoticeable to the average person), the Catholic Church got so wrapped up in its rituals, traditions, and church history as to put that on the same level as the scripture itself.

This really seems like some lame way to handwave your feelings about the Church. And why should this make it 'not Christian'?

In fact, they truly reject a "sola scriptura" viewpoint in favor of relying on church tradition. That really reminds me of the Pharisees from Jesus's day.

See Nathan's comment.

To be fair I didn't really engage with his posts meaningfully, I just said that his understanding of intercession is incomplete.

And that his idea that any time we pray an intermediary to God is required is wrong. But yeah, I guess I hyperbolized a bit, that's certainly not everything that could be said.

Some ideas are ridiculous enough that they don't deserve substantive engagement. I'd say "You're not a Christian unless you worship Christ like I do!" is in that category.

[Diabolical Materialism]

Is it a hot take to say that most European Christians and Christians of European-descent wouldn't be Christians in the first place without the Catholic Church? Is that controversial? Or do people actually take idiots like Carroll or Pentecostal church """historians""" seriously?

[RI]

Is it a hot take to say that most European Christians and Christians of European-descent wouldn't be Christians in the first place without the Catholic Church?

Nobody would be Christians in the first place without the Catholic Church.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Could I please ask those who disagree with my conclusion to at least engage with my points?

I think SlamDunk and RFayette did that enough?

I don't know enough to pinpoint an exact date, but, at some point (and I would guess it happened very gradually as to be unnoticeable to the average person), the Catholic Church got so wrapped up in its rituals, traditions, and church history as to put that on the same level as the scripture itself.

This really seems like some lame way to handwave your feelings about the Church. And why should this make it 'not Christian'?

In fact, they truly reject a "sola scriptura" viewpoint in favor of relying on church tradition. That really reminds me of the Pharisees from Jesus's day.

See Nathan's comment.

To be fair I didn't really engage with his posts meaningfully, I just said that his understanding of intercession is incomplete.

And that his idea that any time we pray an intermediary to God is required is wrong. But yeah, I guess I hyperbolized a bit, that's certainly not everything that could be said.

Some ideas are ridiculous enough that they don't deserve substantive engagement. I'd say "You're not a Christian unless you worship Christ like I do!" is in that category.

I'm not sure that that's necessarily true, although the OP certainly didn't inspire in me much willingness to engage substantively.

[RINO Tom]

Uh ... duh...?

(Lutheran)

[Statilius the Epicurean]

Jews and Muslims would probably find one type of Christian accusing another type of Christian of polytheism because they use intermediaries to Jesus quite funny.

[Diabolical Materialism]

Is it a hot take to say that most European Christians and Christians of European-descent wouldn't be Christians in the first place without the Catholic Church?

Nobody would be Christians in the first place without the Catholic Church.

If we're defining the "Catholic Church" as the "Roman Catholic Church headed by the bishop of Rome" as I am, I think the Ethiopian and eastern churches would disagree with you.

[Kingpoleon]

Very traditional Catholic to “be saved in spite of a church.” The fundamentalist hostility to other churches will always prevent alliances of actual power.

[John Dule]

Let them fight.

[PSOL]

Very traditional Catholic to “be saved in spite of a church.” The fundamentalist hostility to other churches will always prevent alliances of actual power.

Is the Catholic Church that opposed to unity? Given that I believe recent talks with the Orthodox Church was in the news a while ago, to those not familiar with inter-Christian politics it would be seen as not the case.