Where did Odin come from?
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  Where did Odin come from?
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Hindsight was 2020
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« on: January 02, 2021, 05:20:54 PM »

Something that always curious about is that when you look at the history of ancient religions and customs a lot of them have similar structures and concepts primarily that the most important deity is associated with either thunder, the sun, or sky. Zeus, Jupiter, Ra, Perkūnas, Dyaus, and all of them theorized to be rooted in the Dyēus mythology. Yet with Germanic/Norse mythology their chief deity shares none of these characteristics. Odin/Wodan is a god of war, death, wisdom, poetry, and hangings. Granted he is the father of the Thunder god Thor but he himself is not associated with Thunder or the sky. So why is that that Odin doesn’t share similar characteristics to other chief deities and if not rooted in Dyēus then where did he exactly come from?
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2021, 05:36:31 PM »

From my limited understanding of Norse mythology, there is no origin story for Odin. He was just "there" with his two brothers to kill a frost giant before creating the world using his blood, bones, and flesh. It is a very 'warrior-oriented' religion and that's reflected in some of the actions and beliefs of contemporary Neopagans, notably Varg Vikernes and others involved in the early 90's Nordic black metal scene.

The underlying philosophy is that the weak must make way for the strong. The theology doesn't concern itself with the origin of being.
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Battista Minola 1616
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« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2021, 05:58:12 PM »

1. The supreme sky father god in Baltic mythology would actually be Dievas.

2. The closest equivalent to that in Norse mythology would be Týr, which incidentally is the namesake of Tuesday.* I have no idea why he apparently didn't occupy a more prominent place in Norse mythology.

3. The phenomenon you are describing is a specifically Indo-European custom. The Egyptian Ra may have a good deal of similarities but is very evidently distinct from the Dyeus archetype, since Edgyptians were not Indo-Europeans (and indeed, notice the completely different name).

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Moon's day
Tyr's day
Odin's day
Thor's day
Frida's day
Saturn's day
Sun's day
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afleitch
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« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2021, 05:59:43 PM »

Odin was a wanderer; he sought knowledge. He's not a creator.
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Hindsight was 2020
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« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2021, 06:15:37 PM »

Odin was a wanderer; he sought knowledge. He's not a creator.
But Odin according to the mythology created mankind from sticks he found on a beach leading to his name of “Allfather” so he definitely is the creator deity of Norse/Germanic mythology. Which again is weird that unlike practically every other creator deity he has no association with the sky, sun, or thunder. Also you brought up another point I wanted to touch on which is how weirdly contradicting Odin is. One hand he is depicted either as a war god all dressed up in armor or on the other hand as an old wanderer. It is such a weird clash of ideas and combined with lack of similarity to other creator deities it really is fascinating to think of why the  Germanic and Norse people developed him as such
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afleitch
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« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2021, 06:27:59 PM »

Odin was a wanderer; he sought knowledge. He's not a creator.
But Odin according to the mythology created mankind from sticks he found on a beach leading to his name of “Allfather” so he definitely is the creator deity of Norse/Germanic mythology. Which again is weird that unlike practically every other creator deity he has no association with the sky, sun, or thunder. Also you brought up another point I wanted to touch on which is how weirdly contradicting Odin is. One hand he is depicted either as a war god all dressed up in armor or on the other hand as an old wanderer. It is such a weird clash of ideas and combined with lack of similarity to other creator deities it really is fascinating to think of why the  Germanic and Norse people developed him as such

I should have said Creator rather than creator; I agree it's clear he crafted but isn't fully the 'creator of everything' in the traditional foundation sense.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2021, 07:03:08 PM »

I have heard before that Germanic mythology is significantly more impacted by non-Indo European elements, specifically early Uralic peoples.  I think I remember that their concept of layered worlds were from this, too.  Perhaps some deities made it over, as well.  I do remember hearing from a Kings and Generals YouTube video on the early Germanic peoples (HIGHLY recommend this channel!) that Roman authors incorrectly linked a few Germanic gods via syncretism, too.
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« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2021, 07:22:31 PM »

I do remember hearing from a Kings and Generals YouTube video on the early Germanic peoples (HIGHLY recommend this channel!) that Roman authors incorrectly linked a few Germanic gods via syncretism, too.

In Germania, which was a synthesis of secondary sources not supported by any actual field research and yet became a symbol of Germanic nationalism centuries on, Tacitus conflates numerous Germanic deities such as Odin and Thor with broadly similar Roman figures, although some are named individually. While scholars agree on some of the identities, others, such as the goddess he refers to as Isis, are still puzzled over.
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« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2021, 07:48:33 PM »

People have been suggesting since the 1870s that Odin is a later addition to the Germanic pantheon. The late-Victorian view was that original supreme god was Thor, who of course is a thunder god, and that Odin was parachuted in later as part of some broader social shift. I'm not sure if that's still the received understanding now, though.
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Lechasseur
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« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2021, 07:56:47 PM »

I have heard before that Germanic mythology is significantly more impacted by non-Indo European elements, specifically early Uralic peoples.  I think I remember that their concept of layered worlds were from this, too.  Perhaps some deities made it over, as well.  I do remember hearing from a Kings and Generals YouTube video on the early Germanic peoples (HIGHLY recommend this channel!) that Roman authors incorrectly linked a few Germanic gods via syncretism, too.

Ah you watch Kings and Generals too? I love that channel!
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Lechasseur
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« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2021, 08:00:08 PM »

People have been suggesting since the 1870s that Odin is a later addition to the Germanic pantheon. The late-Victorian view was that original supreme god was Thor, who of course is a thunder god, and that Odin was parachuted in later as part of some broader social shift. I'm not sure if that's still the received understanding now, though.

That seems to make the most sense, even if I'm not particularly knowledgeable on the subject (I'm much more interested in Middle Eastern (monotheistic) religions tbh)
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Hindsight was 2020
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« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2021, 08:35:18 PM »

People have been suggesting since the 1870s that Odin is a later addition to the Germanic pantheon. The late-Victorian view was that original supreme god was Thor, who of course is a thunder god, and that Odin was parachuted in later as part of some broader social shift. I'm not sure if that's still the received understanding now, though.
I have heard of that theory but the flaw I always found in that is that I can’t think of any recorded references to Thor that really predate any mention of Odin as well with previous mentioned Germania being one of the earliest known references and both are in it. Also Odin along with Thor was the most commonly worshiped deity across various Germanic tribes which shouldn’t be the case if he was a later add on
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Lechasseur
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« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2021, 04:33:59 AM »

People have been suggesting since the 1870s that Odin is a later addition to the Germanic pantheon. The late-Victorian view was that original supreme god was Thor, who of course is a thunder god, and that Odin was parachuted in later as part of some broader social shift. I'm not sure if that's still the received understanding now, though.
I have heard of that theory but the flaw I always found in that is that I can’t think of any recorded references to Thor that really predate any mention of Odin as well with previous mentioned Germania being one of the earliest known references and both are in it. Also Odin along with Thor was the most commonly worshiped deity across various Germanic tribes which shouldn’t be the case if he was a later add on

The thing is, the Germanic tribes existed well before a recorded history of them did. They didn't really start leaving Scandinavia until the last quarter of the first millenium BC if I'm not wrong.

Being in a small space geographically and existing well before they enter history gave them more than enough time to innovate religiously before they enter the history books.
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Hindsight was 2020
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« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2021, 09:22:28 AM »

People have been suggesting since the 1870s that Odin is a later addition to the Germanic pantheon. The late-Victorian view was that original supreme god was Thor, who of course is a thunder god, and that Odin was parachuted in later as part of some broader social shift. I'm not sure if that's still the received understanding now, though.
I have heard of that theory but the flaw I always found in that is that I can’t think of any recorded references to Thor that really predate any mention of Odin as well with previous mentioned Germania being one of the earliest known references and both are in it. Also Odin along with Thor was the most commonly worshiped deity across various Germanic tribes which shouldn’t be the case if he was a later add on

The thing is, the Germanic tribes existed well before a recorded history of them did. They didn't really start leaving Scandinavia until the last quarter of the first millenium BC if I'm not wrong.

Being in a small space geographically and existing well before they enter history gave them more than enough time to innovate religiously before they enter the history books.
Oh I completely agree with that point and understand, the problem I’m bringing up is that there is just no way either written records wise to prove it because like you said the oldest known recording of Germanic religion happens well into their faiths having been established so their origins are a mystery and there is little physical evidence be it idols or cravings of Thor that massive predate any idols or cravings of Odin. So there is little evidence to suggest the theory Thor was originally the creator deity and Odin was a later add on
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2021, 01:40:44 PM »

I have heard before that Germanic mythology is significantly more impacted by non-Indo European elements, specifically early Uralic peoples.  I think I remember that their concept of layered worlds were from this, too.  Perhaps some deities made it over, as well.  I do remember hearing from a Kings and Generals YouTube video on the early Germanic peoples (HIGHLY recommend this channel!) that Roman authors incorrectly linked a few Germanic gods via syncretism, too.

Ah you watch Kings and Generals too? I love that channel!

Probably tied for my favorite YouTube channel, along with Fire of Learning, though the latter just puts out content on a less regular basis.  Their video on the Germanic peoples was super interesting!

Back to the OP again, isn't the simplified version of the early migrations that Uralic speakers came from the north, Indo Europeans came up through Denmark from Northern Germany and in between were "indigenous Northern Europeans" (i.e., those of I1 haplogroups, largely)?  Then after a while, the "proto-Germanic" culture found its ethnogenesis in (extreme) Southern Scandinavia and Northern Germany?  This would leave the bulk of the population in Scandinavia just as close to Uralic peoples as Germanic peoples.  Considering the odd situation of Woden/Odin being the CHIEF god of the Germanic pantheon but also identified with Mercury by the Romans, I do wonder if perhaps his origin is non-Indo European.
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shua
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« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2021, 03:53:42 PM »

People have been suggesting since the 1870s that Odin is a later addition to the Germanic pantheon. The late-Victorian view was that original supreme god was Thor, who of course is a thunder god, and that Odin was parachuted in later as part of some broader social shift. I'm not sure if that's still the received understanding now, though.

Or maybe the development of different aspects to the deity, and eventually becoming distinct personalities?  That sort of thing happens sometimes.
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Lechasseur
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« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2021, 06:06:11 PM »

I have heard before that Germanic mythology is significantly more impacted by non-Indo European elements, specifically early Uralic peoples.  I think I remember that their concept of layered worlds were from this, too.  Perhaps some deities made it over, as well.  I do remember hearing from a Kings and Generals YouTube video on the early Germanic peoples (HIGHLY recommend this channel!) that Roman authors incorrectly linked a few Germanic gods via syncretism, too.

Ah you watch Kings and Generals too? I love that channel!

Probably tied for my favorite YouTube channel, along with Fire of Learning, though the latter just puts out content on a less regular basis.  Their video on the Germanic peoples was super interesting!

Back to the OP again, isn't the simplified version of the early migrations that Uralic speakers came from the north, Indo Europeans came up through Denmark from Northern Germany and in between were "indigenous Northern Europeans" (i.e., those of I1 haplogroups, largely)?  Then after a while, the "proto-Germanic" culture found its ethnogenesis in (extreme) Southern Scandinavia and Northern Germany?  This would leave the bulk of the population in Scandinavia just as close to Uralic peoples as Germanic peoples.  Considering the odd situation of Woden/Odin being the CHIEF god of the Germanic pantheon but also identified with Mercury by the Romans, I do wonder if perhaps his origin is non-Indo European.

Yep Kings and Generals is my favorite as well

And yeah I think your theory there is probably correct
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ingemann
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« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2021, 08:39:42 PM »

From my limited understanding of Norse mythology, there is no origin story for Odin. He was just "there" with his two brothers to kill a frost giant before creating the world using his blood, bones, and flesh. It is a very 'warrior-oriented' religion and that's reflected in some of the actions and beliefs of contemporary Neopagans, notably Varg Vikernes and others involved in the early 90's Nordic black metal scene.

The underlying philosophy is that the weak must make way for the strong. The theology doesn't concern itself with the origin of being.

Odin, Vile and Ve were sons of Borr, who was son of Buri who came from a salt stone which the primeval cow Audhumbla licked. Audhumbla feed the the primeval Jotun Ymir. Odin, Vile and Ve killed Ymir and shaped the world out of his corpse.

As for metamythical origin, Odin was a original creation of the proto-Germanic people, he’s fundamental a priest god representing the religious frenzy which he is named for, interesting his brother’s names means holy (which was also the name for priest) and will. Original the three brother gods have likely been Tyr, Hænir and Loki. Odin, Vile and Ve likely represented a change in theology toward a more personal connection to the gods, with the three brothers having original been a kind bridge between the divine and the mortal realm, and slowly they grew to replace the original three divine brothers. This may seem weird but it’s important to remember Norse mythology was written down 1600 years later than Greek and Germanic culture had been much more heavily influenced by pre-Indo-European South Scandinavians than Greek culture was by pre-Indo-European Greeks.
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