Feminism and the ordination of women as priestesses and ministers. (user search)
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  Feminism and the ordination of women as priestesses and ministers. (search mode)
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Author Topic: Feminism and the ordination of women as priestesses and ministers.  (Read 3595 times)
The world will shine with light in our nightmare
Just Passion Through
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« on: December 27, 2020, 04:51:16 PM »

The prohibition on women priests is one of several reasons I am not a Roman Catholic. I am not more qualified to lead a flock or counsel to people simply because I have a penis. As Eve was created from the rib of Adam, and not from his head or his feet, women are equal to men before God.

And at least with women priests, I mean, how often do you hear about women messing around with choir boys? [/snark]
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The world will shine with light in our nightmare
Just Passion Through
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 45,270
Norway


Political Matrix
E: -6.32, S: -7.48

P P P

« Reply #1 on: December 28, 2020, 04:27:50 PM »
« Edited: December 28, 2020, 06:29:33 PM by Senator Scott🔔 »

There is a higher law than even Scripture, and those who proclaim that Scripture is the universal, literal, whole, and highest law make a claim about the Bible that it does not make about itself.

What is the higher law?  And how can we know it?

The three sources of authority within Anglicanism (and since everybody else is, without any hint of irony, asserting what their church states as the infallible doctrine, I'm doing so too) are Scripture, Tradition, and Reason, as a "three-legged stool" which falls if any of those legs is not upright. Reason includes the human capacity to discern the truth in both rational and intuitive ways, and that most certainly includes Scripture, which came literally billions of years after Creation and Reason had been divinely established - and was only accessible to a minority of the world's population.

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However, Paul himself also speaks of several ordained women.

When?  Because afaik there's no evidence of female priests or pastors in the early church.  Female deacons did exist, on the other hand.

Female deacons did indeed exist (although it was controversial among some church fathers and theologians whether women could also be priests), but it was only until the 12th century that the church started saying "Don't ordain women as priests" (without implying that women never were ordained), but prior to that, theologians argued that whenever the words of consecration are recited, the consecration happens regardless of whether a man or a woman says them. (The right to consecrate the bread and the wine, however, is the sacrament of orders for priests, according to Alexander of Hales.)

Theologically you could argue that women who were ordained and served in priestly roles and consecrated the bread and the wine weren't "actually priests", but that would be a theological argument and not a historical one.

In the 13th century, we see the rise of Aristotelian philosophy in the church, and Aristotelian biology does not take a very favorable view of women. But that, contrary to what conservative Christians might suspect, is when the debate begins to take place. Some said, "Women used to be ordained but we don't do it anymore." Some said, "Yes, we still do. Abbesses are still ordained." And some said, "Not only do we do not ordain women, but we never did." And by the end of the 13th century the latter becomes the dominant opinion.

And this is where the authors/censors of history come in: you have examples of laws that say, "Women have to stop serving at the altar." Many older laws make reference to the presbytera (feminine word for priest) and the diacona (feminine word for deacon). So then the church had to explain those references away, because it was never supposed to have happened.

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Furthermore, my conscience not only neutrally dissents from those who forbid the ordination of women - it outright demands such ordination. I would view myself as being guilty before my mother, my female pastor, my grandmother, and many other women if I told them that I was more qualified for the priesthood than they are. Indeed, if I told my mother that, I would expect to get slapped.

I'm certainly not saying I'm more qualified than women.  I'm equally unqualified as very few men are qualified to be ordained.

You are saying that, actually, as you are taking the position that women by default are wholly unqualified to be ordained. You would inherently be more qualified for ordination based on the fact that you are male, if the complementarian view is correct.

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Sexism is a sin, and to partake in it on God’s behalf is the highest form of blasphemy.

I'm not partaking in sexism.  The Bible is clear that men and women are equal, but it is also clear that the two sexes are not interchangeable.

Nature's pretty clear about that too. But as to whether men or women may be called to serve as priests, I think history shows that the pre-13th century church's position on that was ambiguous at best. And it's perfectly valid to question if women's exclusion from leadership roles was in fact divinely inspired in a society where men already had more rights and authority over virtually anything and everything.
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The world will shine with light in our nightmare
Just Passion Through
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 45,270
Norway


Political Matrix
E: -6.32, S: -7.48

P P P

« Reply #2 on: December 28, 2020, 05:28:30 PM »

Isn’t there something to be said for having one place in society that does things the way they’ve done them since time immemorial? Traditionalists understand that there are things they can’t control - will the modernists really not be satisfied until they have everything?

Well, I can't speak for all modernists, but I personally won't be satisfied until I'm God Himself. What's your life's ambition, to raise a family in a quaint Tuscan villa somewhere? That's cute.
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The world will shine with light in our nightmare
Just Passion Through
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 45,270
Norway


Political Matrix
E: -6.32, S: -7.48

P P P

« Reply #3 on: December 28, 2020, 05:51:23 PM »

Well, I can't speak for all modernists, but I personally won't be satisfied until I'm God Himself.


In the religious sense or in the secular sense?

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What's your life's ambition, to raise a family in a quaint Tuscan villa somewhere? That's cute.

I think you’ve taken my point to be the opposite of what it really is. My point is that no matter how confusing, fast paced, or modern your life is, traditional religion offers you exactly the same experience as was offered to Tuscan villagers a millennium ago. I think that that’s worth something immeasurable.

I forgot that sarcasm and irony don't translate well here.

On any note, my problem isn't with "traditional religion" (obviously), it's ancient cultural biases that are used to reinforce existing prejudices.
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The world will shine with light in our nightmare
Just Passion Through
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 45,270
Norway


Political Matrix
E: -6.32, S: -7.48

P P P

« Reply #4 on: December 28, 2020, 06:56:20 PM »

On any note, my problem isn't with "traditional religion" (obviously), it's ancient cultural biases that are used to reinforce existing prejudices.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but neither religious traditions where women have always served priestly functions nor indeed women serving in other positions of authority within the church (which has both Old and New Testament precedents) raises an eyebrow from me. Regardless of whether this ancient cultural bias was fair or not (neither of us really knows anything about gender in the first century Greco-Roman world), to change policies now, two millennia later, seems distastefully political to me and many others.

We actually do know a little bit about understandings of gender, as well as sex, in ancient times. For example, pre-adoption of the Visigothic Code, the criteria for "maleness" demanded that an individual be attracted to women (independent of whether he is also attracted to men) in addition to possessing male genitalia. Sex between men was seen in the same light as heterosexual sex: one as the "receiver" or non-dominant lover. Sex between two women was not considered sex at all, because sex had to involve an ejaculating penis to actually be called sex.

The point being, cultural understandings of gender roles have evolved throughout history. We don't designate eunuchs in their own gender category anymore. We've separated gender entirely from sexual preferences.

Morality with regard to gender roles or sex must be understood in the context of the wisdom of the era. Changing policies to reflect that is not a bad thing.
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The world will shine with light in our nightmare
Just Passion Through
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 45,270
Norway


Political Matrix
E: -6.32, S: -7.48

P P P

« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2020, 03:27:59 PM »

Traditionally, Anglicanism would put Scripture over tradition and reason, right?

I'm not sure about that. The sources of authority within Anglicanism are the exact same as the Wesleyan Quadrilateral, minus 'Christian experience'. (John Wesley started Methodism as a movement within Anglicanism and never left the CoE.)

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Female deacons did indeed exist (although it was controversial among some church fathers and theologians whether women could also be priests), but it was only until the 12th century that the church started saying "Don't ordain women as priests" (without implying that women never were ordained), but prior to that, theologians argued that whenever the words of consecration are recited, the consecration happens regardless of whether a man or a woman says them. (The right to consecrate the bread and the wine, however, is the sacrament of orders for priests, according to Alexander of Hales.)

Do you have any sources for this?  Because when I researched this I could only find heretical groups in the early church who ordained women.

https://uscatholic.org/articles/201212/get-the-facts-in-order-a-history-of-womens-leadership/

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You are saying that, actually, as you are taking the position that women by default are wholly unqualified to be ordained. You would inherently be more qualified for ordination based on the fact that you are male, if the complementarian view is correct.

Not really, I'm still unqualified since I'm not called to be a pastor.

Okay, but women pastors obviously believe they are called.
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