Feminism and the ordination of women as priestesses and ministers.
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Author Topic: Feminism and the ordination of women as priestesses and ministers.  (Read 3522 times)
Mopsus
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« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2020, 05:48:35 PM »

Well, I can't speak for all modernists, but I personally won't be satisfied until I'm God Himself.


In the religious sense or in the secular sense?

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What's your life's ambition, to raise a family in a quaint Tuscan villa somewhere? That's cute.

I think you’ve taken my point to be the opposite of what it really is. My point is that no matter how confusing, fast paced, or modern your life is, traditional religion offers you exactly the same experience as was offered to Tuscan villagers a millennium ago. I think that that’s worth something immeasurable.
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2020, 05:51:23 PM »

Well, I can't speak for all modernists, but I personally won't be satisfied until I'm God Himself.


In the religious sense or in the secular sense?

Quote
What's your life's ambition, to raise a family in a quaint Tuscan villa somewhere? That's cute.

I think you’ve taken my point to be the opposite of what it really is. My point is that no matter how confusing, fast paced, or modern your life is, traditional religion offers you exactly the same experience as was offered to Tuscan villagers a millennium ago. I think that that’s worth something immeasurable.

I forgot that sarcasm and irony don't translate well here.

On any note, my problem isn't with "traditional religion" (obviously), it's ancient cultural biases that are used to reinforce existing prejudices.
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Battista Minola 1616
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« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2020, 06:03:37 PM »

I forgot that sarcasm and irony don't translate well here.

On any note, my problem isn't with "traditional religion" (obviously), it's ancient cultural biases that are used to reinforce existing prejudices.

Sarcasm and irony translate very well in Italian (Ligurian-Tuscan-fringe variety) if I do say so myself.

I was actually planning not to comment in this thread for personal reasons, but you handed that one on a silver platter.
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Mopsus
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« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2020, 06:36:29 PM »

On any note, my problem isn't with "traditional religion" (obviously), it's ancient cultural biases that are used to reinforce existing prejudices.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but neither religious traditions where women have always served priestly functions nor indeed women serving in other positions of authority within the church (which has both Old and New Testament precedents) raises an eyebrow from me. Regardless of whether this ancient cultural bias was fair or not (neither of us really knows anything about gender in the first century Greco-Roman world), to change policies now, two millennia later, seems distastefully political to me and many others.
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2020, 06:56:20 PM »

On any note, my problem isn't with "traditional religion" (obviously), it's ancient cultural biases that are used to reinforce existing prejudices.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but neither religious traditions where women have always served priestly functions nor indeed women serving in other positions of authority within the church (which has both Old and New Testament precedents) raises an eyebrow from me. Regardless of whether this ancient cultural bias was fair or not (neither of us really knows anything about gender in the first century Greco-Roman world), to change policies now, two millennia later, seems distastefully political to me and many others.

We actually do know a little bit about understandings of gender, as well as sex, in ancient times. For example, pre-adoption of the Visigothic Code, the criteria for "maleness" demanded that an individual be attracted to women (independent of whether he is also attracted to men) in addition to possessing male genitalia. Sex between men was seen in the same light as heterosexual sex: one as the "receiver" or non-dominant lover. Sex between two women was not considered sex at all, because sex had to involve an ejaculating penis to actually be called sex.

The point being, cultural understandings of gender roles have evolved throughout history. We don't designate eunuchs in their own gender category anymore. We've separated gender entirely from sexual preferences.

Morality with regard to gender roles or sex must be understood in the context of the wisdom of the era. Changing policies to reflect that is not a bad thing.
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Chunk Yogurt for President!
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Junior Chimp
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« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2020, 08:44:58 PM »

Traditionally, Anglicanism would put Scripture over tradition and reason, right?

Quote
Female deacons did indeed exist (although it was controversial among some church fathers and theologians whether women could also be priests), but it was only until the 12th century that the church started saying "Don't ordain women as priests" (without implying that women never were ordained), but prior to that, theologians argued that whenever the words of consecration are recited, the consecration happens regardless of whether a man or a woman says them. (The right to consecrate the bread and the wine, however, is the sacrament of orders for priests, according to Alexander of Hales.)

Do you have any sources for this?  Because when I researched this I could only find heretical groups in the early church who ordained women.

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You are saying that, actually, as you are taking the position that women by default are wholly unqualified to be ordained. You would inherently be more qualified for ordination based on the fact that you are male, if the complementarian view is correct.

Not really, I'm still unqualified since I'm not called to be a pastor.
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Mopsus
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« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2020, 03:00:30 PM »

We actually do know a little bit about understandings of gender, as well as sex, in ancient times. For example, pre-adoption of the Visigothic Code, the criteria for "maleness" demanded that an individual be attracted to women (independent of whether he is also attracted to men) in addition to possessing male genitalia. Sex between men was seen in the same light as heterosexual sex: one as the "receiver" or non-dominant lover. Sex between two women was not considered sex at all, because sex had to involve an ejaculating penis to actually be called sex.

The point being, cultural understandings of gender roles have evolved throughout history. We don't designate eunuchs in their own gender category anymore. We've separated gender entirely from sexual preferences.

Morality with regard to gender roles or sex must be understood in the context of the wisdom of the era. Changing policies to reflect that is not a bad thing.

What I'm getting at is that neither of us has firsthand knowledge of Greco-Roman gender roles, so we don't really know why it was inappropriate for women to serve as Father in the dispensation of the sacraments, but I'm guessing it had something to do with the same mystification of the family that led to the Church being described as the Bridegroom of Christ. I wonder how many holy metaphors you can chip away before you get to the foundations of the thing.
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« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2020, 03:27:59 PM »

Traditionally, Anglicanism would put Scripture over tradition and reason, right?

I'm not sure about that. The sources of authority within Anglicanism are the exact same as the Wesleyan Quadrilateral, minus 'Christian experience'. (John Wesley started Methodism as a movement within Anglicanism and never left the CoE.)

Quote
Quote
Female deacons did indeed exist (although it was controversial among some church fathers and theologians whether women could also be priests), but it was only until the 12th century that the church started saying "Don't ordain women as priests" (without implying that women never were ordained), but prior to that, theologians argued that whenever the words of consecration are recited, the consecration happens regardless of whether a man or a woman says them. (The right to consecrate the bread and the wine, however, is the sacrament of orders for priests, according to Alexander of Hales.)

Do you have any sources for this?  Because when I researched this I could only find heretical groups in the early church who ordained women.

https://uscatholic.org/articles/201212/get-the-facts-in-order-a-history-of-womens-leadership/

Quote
Quote
You are saying that, actually, as you are taking the position that women by default are wholly unqualified to be ordained. You would inherently be more qualified for ordination based on the fact that you are male, if the complementarian view is correct.

Not really, I'm still unqualified since I'm not called to be a pastor.

Okay, but women pastors obviously believe they are called.
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Chunk Yogurt for President!
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« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2020, 10:56:17 PM »

I'm not Catholic so I might not be the best person to respond to that article, but I'm prertty sure that abbesses were not bishops.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2021, 05:35:09 PM »

There is a higher law than even Scripture, and those who proclaim that Scripture is the universal, literal, whole, and highest law make a claim about the Bible that it does not make about itself.

What is the higher law?  And how can we know it?

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I square it the same way I do when Paul forbids women from wearing jewelry - certainly applicable to the specific group in the specific time he was writing to.


That was written in the context of modesty.

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However, Paul himself also speaks of several ordained women.


When?  Because afaik there's no evidence of female priests or pastors in the early church.  Female deacons did exist, on the other hand.
”In the context of modesty” means nothing. If you hold the writings of Paul to be authoritative in doctrine, then women are forbidden from wearing jewelry and men from having long hair.

Junia, in Romans 16, is referred to as an apostle. This is a title given to the Twelve, to Paul, to Barnabas, Silas, Andronicus, Timothy, and to her. Priscilla, too, is sometimes considered to have been a presbyter. Junia, given the title of apostle, becomes equal in rank with the authors of Scripture.

Furthermore, Sarah Crosby was the first female preacher in the modern age, and she was granted such license by John Wesley. Sojourner Truth, one of the greatest preachers in American history, was a black woman ordered to preach by God in a vision. Given her testimony, I hesitate to decry such visions as false.
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vitoNova
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« Reply #35 on: February 05, 2021, 11:20:42 AM »
« Edited: February 05, 2021, 11:24:18 AM by SecularGlobalist »

They're cool.   I attended a Universalitist Unitarian mass and interviewed the pastor (lesbian) for my Journalism 101 class in college (assignment: interview any "leader" of the community), and my interview was the only one that made it in the college paper.  

Wokeness pays.  
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John Henry Eden
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« Reply #36 on: February 05, 2021, 08:39:37 PM »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgyqV807spw
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Alcibiades
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« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2021, 10:34:41 AM »

I’d be interested in hearing the opinion of those who follow the internal affairs of the Catholic Church closely as to how likely they think it is that the Church will in the foreseeable future (or ever) permit the ordination of women. More and more Protestant denominations have been doing so, but my guess for the Catholic Church would be “not very likely”.
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Xeuma
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« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2021, 12:16:25 PM »

I’d be interested in hearing the opinion of those who follow the internal affairs of the Catholic Church closely as to how likely they think it is that the Church will in the foreseeable future (or ever) permit the ordination of women. More and more Protestant denominations have been doing so, but my guess for the Catholic Church would be “not very likely”.

It will never happen. John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and now Francis have all infallibly taught the ordination of women is an impossibility.
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« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2021, 12:38:23 PM »

I’d be interested in hearing the opinion of those who follow the internal affairs of the Catholic Church closely as to how likely they think it is that the Church will in the foreseeable future (or ever) permit the ordination of women. More and more Protestant denominations have been doing so, but my guess for the Catholic Church would be “not very likely”.

It will never happen. John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and now Francis have all infallibly taught the ordination of women is an impossibility.

But there is some dispute among otherwise orthodox theologians about the infallibility of Ordinatio sacerdotalis, in a way that there is not about, say, the infallibility of the teachings against abortion and euthanasia in Evangelium vitae.

It's still very unlikely, though, because whether it's technically infallible or not, it's definitely placed at a pretty high level of theological certitude (for reasons I, personally, still don't really understand). What's likelier is that new vocational options for women will end up being developed, since--other than marriage and holy orders, which we have had and will have come hell or high water--what vocations are available to Catholics aren't static, and vary from culture to culture. (Who, for example, has met a beguine recently?)
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #40 on: February 07, 2021, 01:57:35 PM »

Much of the recent changes that Pope Francis has made concerning the inclusion of women in various positions are pretty minor things that have been announced in such a way to shape a narrative that we're heading for women priests. But we're clearly not.

I suppose deaconesses are potentially plausible provided they do not receive Holy Orders such as deacons do and exist in some other role. No offense to any deacons reading this but personally, I have never really seen much point in the permanent deaconate to begin with.

I think it's also important to bring up what I think is the main underlying issue - and that is the presupposition of radical egalitarianism that makes people even want to have women priests in the first place. Ultimately I think the Church is going to have to come down on this somehow because it simply isn't consistent with the Church's long standing thought on the subject, but I can see why doing so would alienate a lot of people and why they are reticent to do so. As a result they will probably keep making weird minor pr moves that make it look like they are moving in that direction.
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Alcibiades
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« Reply #41 on: February 07, 2021, 02:08:33 PM »

I’d be interested in hearing the opinion of those who follow the internal affairs of the Catholic Church closely as to how likely they think it is that the Church will in the foreseeable future (or ever) permit the ordination of women. More and more Protestant denominations have been doing so, but my guess for the Catholic Church would be “not very likely”.

It will never happen. John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and now Francis have all infallibly taught the ordination of women is an impossibility.

Theoretically, though, there is nothing to stop a future pope from overruling all of those ones and declaring infallibly that women can be priests, right, despite this being very unlikely to happen?
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #42 on: February 07, 2021, 02:14:26 PM »


The decline of the beguines (and beghards) has far more to do with changes in civil society than religion.
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TJ in Oregon
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« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2021, 02:43:21 PM »

I’d be interested in hearing the opinion of those who follow the internal affairs of the Catholic Church closely as to how likely they think it is that the Church will in the foreseeable future (or ever) permit the ordination of women. More and more Protestant denominations have been doing so, but my guess for the Catholic Church would be “not very likely”.

It will never happen. John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and now Francis have all infallibly taught the ordination of women is an impossibility.

Theoretically, though, there is nothing to stop a future pope from overruling all of those ones and declaring infallibly that women can be priests, right, despite this being very unlikely to happen?

It is theoretically possible if you take the position that the previous statement was not infallible, but even that would be some level of rejection of the teaching authority of the previous Popes. While technically only ex cathedra statements absolutely cannot be contradicted, the teaching authority of the Pope is considered authoritative on a wider basis. It would be very extreme, basically unthinkable, to overturn point blank statements like JPII's condemnation of women priests, especially while they are in living memory.

One of the more common misconceptions of Papal infallibility is to see it as a power of the Pope when it is really a limit on Papal power, since it also means his predecessors were infallible too.
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Benjamin Frank
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« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2021, 05:04:18 PM »
« Edited: February 07, 2021, 05:10:14 PM by Frank »

There is a higher law than even Scripture, and those who proclaim that Scripture is the universal, literal, whole, and highest law make a claim about the Bible that it does not make about itself.

     The irony of using sola scriptura to disparage the authority of the scriptures because they never directly claim to be infallible (which is highly debatable) is highly amusing to me. It is a concept unknown to the Sacred Tradition of the Orthodox Church, and I am thankful for that. If we do not have an infallible source of truth to rely upon, then we are in darkness and our beliefs about God and His will are ultimately arbitrary. At that point we are little better off than the atheists who claim no source of revelation.

This is ironic since in another thread you wrote this:

Quote
Sorry to hear that. The thing about wokeness is that it's a totalizing worldview. When someone is inside, they learn to see everything through the prescribed lens, and come to believe the woke are the sane ones and everyone else is insane. You and I can look at this nonsense and laugh, but for them this is unironically serious business. I wish I knew a good way to help someone like that, but I don't.

Certainly not saying you believe only you are sane while everybody who disagrees with you is insane, but the 'prescribed lens' part fits 100% with what you wrote.

It sounds to me like it's more than just 'woke' people who suffer from this.
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« Reply #45 on: February 07, 2021, 06:07:53 PM »

It's always struck me as pretty bizarre when people who aren't conservative have called me narrow-minded for having this as an absolute deal breaker (if not allowed) on ever belonging to a church.
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afleitch
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« Reply #46 on: February 07, 2021, 06:09:39 PM »

It's always struck me as pretty bizarre when people who aren't conservative have called me narrow-minded for having this as an absolute deal breaker (if not allowed) on ever belonging to a church.

I respect you for that.
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Xeuma
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« Reply #47 on: February 07, 2021, 06:34:05 PM »

It's always struck me as pretty bizarre when people who aren't conservative have called me narrow-minded for having this as an absolute deal breaker (if not allowed) on ever belonging to a church.

Serious question: would you then not be Christian until contemporary times? I'm not aware, nor is a precursory research, of any form of Christianity that would have ordained women until very recently. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but Christianity seems central to your identity. I'm just curious how you would reconcile the historical lack of the practice with this ultimatum.
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afleitch
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« Reply #48 on: February 07, 2021, 06:48:42 PM »

It's always struck me as pretty bizarre when people who aren't conservative have called me narrow-minded for having this as an absolute deal breaker (if not allowed) on ever belonging to a church.

Serious question: would you then not be Christian until contemporary times? I'm not aware, nor is a precursory research, of any form of Christianity that would have ordained women until very recently. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but Christianity seems central to your identity. I'm just curious how you would reconcile the historical lack of the practice with this ultimatum.

Not to answer for him, but an historic lack of female representation in secular institutions throughout history would not excuse that today. It's easy to reconcile support for democratic institutions today while recognising the historical lack of or disenfranchisment of women in those same institutions.
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Xeuma
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« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2021, 01:04:09 AM »

It's always struck me as pretty bizarre when people who aren't conservative have called me narrow-minded for having this as an absolute deal breaker (if not allowed) on ever belonging to a church.

Serious question: would you then not be Christian until contemporary times? I'm not aware, nor is a precursory research, of any form of Christianity that would have ordained women until very recently. I don't want to put words in your mouth, but Christianity seems central to your identity. I'm just curious how you would reconcile the historical lack of the practice with this ultimatum.

Not to answer for him, but an historic lack of female representation in secular institutions throughout history would not excuse that today. It's easy to reconcile support for democratic institutions today while recognising the historical lack of or disenfranchisment of women in those same institutions.

I suppose? There still seems a contradiction in that Christianity would not be worth of belief as recently as one hundred years ago but also affirming it now, which, I assume, includes belief that he practices the faith established by Christ, if the practice of the early Church fails to meet that ultimatum.
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