Israel General Elections || 23.03.2021

[Hnv1]

It seems there is going to be a dispute between Lapid and Bennett who ought to get the mandate from the president to form the government (partially symbolic as the rotation government allows both to form one and be first\second, partially substantial as there's fear Bennett might still try to form some right-wing government).
Meanwhile, Meretz and Labour activists (with their complete misunderstanding of politics) are starting an online campaign to get major ministries in said government. Claiming that as their combined strength equals that of Sa'ar and Bennett they ought to get the same power. Well, that it is of course ridiculous because we all know they can't be allowed to appear as if they somehow thwarted the anti-Bibi government. 

It's still important to put pressure from the left imo. The left exists and it can't be totally ignored like that- the current government suggestion is ridiculous. Obviously Bennet and Sa'ar's 13 will be worth more than the left's 13, but the left's 13 should be worth something. I'd say something along the line of Home and Education Ministries as well as two or three more ministries is fair.

They have no way to put the squeeze here. Home office for Michaeli, and Economy for Horowitz is the most, maybe two junior portfolios for Zandberg and Bar Lev

That would be reasonable, but in the current state Shaked vetoed Home for Michaeli because it's "ideological". I know the religious zionists think they're superior human beings, but there's no way Labour and Meretz should agree to getting absolutely nothing out of this. I'd say the reasonable thinkg would be 3 Ministries (including Home) for Labour and 2 (one like Economy or Health and the other a junior position) for Meretz.

That’s 5 ministries for 13 MKs, considering the new government would be at most 24 members big, and YA have to allocate a lot to their people that’s a bit out of order.
Zandberg can take Social Equality or somewhere else she won’t do damage in. Most of Labour’s bench are rookies with zero political experience. Give them house committees over ministries.

That's fair. The problem is that the current negotiating position of the right isn't fair. Af least one major ministry like Home should be non negotiable.

It would be prudent to bloc together and demand one top portfolio (not sure the home office is the one they'd want) and other junior ministries. Though knowing Meretz they would rather negotiate separately and incompently.

It is actually quite a pickle. we have 6 parties roughly the same size and slightly bigger YA. and as YB aren't counted with the right bloc this time it means again some problem in manning offices to have equal weight.

Gantz and Liberman will both demand 2 ministries each with each getting a senior one. YA have a lot of people waiting on the side line for a ministry. It would see that the left could either get 1 big one and 2 very small ones or just small ones. But as I don't see Zandberg backing down on getting a ministry it would be difficult to appease everyone here. Just to show you that the left isn't that different from the right when it comes to their egos.

It is pretty ridiculous that YB is counted with the left. Seems to me like a mistake in framing.

Well, they recommended Lapid, and unless Lieberman is willing to tie his faith with Bennett who would be able to sack him at any moment that's the ways the ministries will be divided.

I think Bennet and Lapid can take PM and foreign office and rotate between them. Gantz remains at Defence, Lieberman can take the treasury, Sa'ar Justice, Shaked Home Office, Michaeli Economy, Horowitz Transporation, and the rest could be divided on bloc lines. Immigration will be given to Tamana-Shata. Welfare to Shasha-Bitton. Barbibai will probably stay as chairman of the defence committee but other YA seniors will get portfolios. Bar Lev might be dumb enough to take interior security.

I'm happy as long as Shaked is away from Justice and Zandberg is away from an economic office.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

It seems there is going to be a dispute between Lapid and Bennett who ought to get the mandate from the president to form the government (partially symbolic as the rotation government allows both to form one and be first\second, partially substantial as there's fear Bennett might still try to form some right-wing government).
Meanwhile, Meretz and Labour activists (with their complete misunderstanding of politics) are starting an online campaign to get major ministries in said government. Claiming that as their combined strength equals that of Sa'ar and Bennett they ought to get the same power. Well, that it is of course ridiculous because we all know they can't be allowed to appear as if they somehow thwarted the anti-Bibi government.  

Won’t Rivlin likely give the mandate to Bennett instead of Lapid simply to increase the chances of a right-wing government?  

Why will he do that?
They will have to agree beforehand between them otherwise he throws it back to the house I reckon.

I don’t know, I figured as a member of Likud, he’d be more inclined to try to either give Bennett a shot at forming a right-wing government or even force yet another election than he would to give Lapid the mandate if Netanyahu is no longer an option this time around.  I was asking b/c I assume you and Parrotguy would know better than I if this is likely to happen.  

My worry is that Likud might ultimately agree to Bennett and Netanyahu doing a rotation and that Netanyahu’s coalition partners and Gideon Sa’ar’s party might go for that as well.  I suppose a sticking point might be who goes first (Sa’ar in particular might not be on board with Netanyahu going first and the latter would presumably insist doing so).  There may be no real chance of this happening, but I wasn’t sure (hence my question).  

[America Needs R'hllor]

It seems there is going to be a dispute between Lapid and Bennett who ought to get the mandate from the president to form the government (partially symbolic as the rotation government allows both to form one and be first\second, partially substantial as there's fear Bennett might still try to form some right-wing government).
Meanwhile, Meretz and Labour activists (with their complete misunderstanding of politics) are starting an online campaign to get major ministries in said government. Claiming that as their combined strength equals that of Sa'ar and Bennett they ought to get the same power. Well, that it is of course ridiculous because we all know they can't be allowed to appear as if they somehow thwarted the anti-Bibi government. 

It's still important to put pressure from the left imo. The left exists and it can't be totally ignored like that- the current government suggestion is ridiculous. Obviously Bennet and Sa'ar's 13 will be worth more than the left's 13, but the left's 13 should be worth something. I'd say something along the line of Home and Education Ministries as well as two or three more ministries is fair.

They have no way to put the squeeze here. Home office for Michaeli, and Economy for Horowitz is the most, maybe two junior portfolios for Zandberg and Bar Lev

That would be reasonable, but in the current state Shaked vetoed Home for Michaeli because it's "ideological". I know the religious zionists think they're superior human beings, but there's no way Labour and Meretz should agree to getting absolutely nothing out of this. I'd say the reasonable thinkg would be 3 Ministries (including Home) for Labour and 2 (one like Economy or Health and the other a junior position) for Meretz.

That’s 5 ministries for 13 MKs, considering the new government would be at most 24 members big, and YA have to allocate a lot to their people that’s a bit out of order.
Zandberg can take Social Equality or somewhere else she won’t do damage in. Most of Labour’s bench are rookies with zero political experience. Give them house committees over ministries.

That's fair. The problem is that the current negotiating position of the right isn't fair. Af least one major ministry like Home should be non negotiable.

It would be prudent to bloc together and demand one top portfolio (not sure the home office is the one they'd want) and other junior ministries. Though knowing Meretz they would rather negotiate separately and incompently.

It is actually quite a pickle. we have 6 parties roughly the same size and slightly bigger YA. and as YB aren't counted with the right bloc this time it means again some problem in manning offices to have equal weight.

Gantz and Liberman will both demand 2 ministries each with each getting a senior one. YA have a lot of people waiting on the side line for a ministry. It would see that the left could either get 1 big one and 2 very small ones or just small ones. But as I don't see Zandberg backing down on getting a ministry it would be difficult to appease everyone here. Just to show you that the left isn't that different from the right when it comes to their egos.

It is pretty ridiculous that YB is counted with the left. Seems to me like a mistake in framing.

Well, they recommended Lapid, and unless Lieberman is willing to tie his faith with Bennett who would be able to sack him at any moment that's the ways the ministries will be divided.

I think Bennet and Lapid can take PM and foreign office and rotate between them. Gantz remains at Defence, Lieberman can take the treasury, Sa'ar Justice, Shaked Home Office, Michaeli Economy, Horowitz Transporation, and the rest could be divided on bloc lines. Immigration will be given to Tamana-Shata. Welfare to Shasha-Bitton. Barbibai will probably stay as chairman of the defence committee but other YA seniors will get portfolios. Bar Lev might be dumb enough to take interior security.

I'm happy as long as Shaked is away from Justice and Zandberg is away from an economic office.

I would personally be very unhappy with Home staying at the right religious hands.

@KaiserDave- Rivlin isn't very friendly to Netanyahu. He'd have given Lapid the mandate if he had less recommendations, so I don't think it's a great worry.

[Hnv1]

It seems there is going to be a dispute between Lapid and Bennett who ought to get the mandate from the president to form the government (partially symbolic as the rotation government allows both to form one and be first\second, partially substantial as there's fear Bennett might still try to form some right-wing government).
Meanwhile, Meretz and Labour activists (with their complete misunderstanding of politics) are starting an online campaign to get major ministries in said government. Claiming that as their combined strength equals that of Sa'ar and Bennett they ought to get the same power. Well, that it is of course ridiculous because we all know they can't be allowed to appear as if they somehow thwarted the anti-Bibi government.  

Won’t Rivlin likely give the mandate to Bennett instead of Lapid simply to increase the chances of a right-wing government?  

Why will he do that?
They will have to agree beforehand between them otherwise he throws it back to the house I reckon.

I don’t know, I figured as a member of Likud, he’d be more inclined to try to either give Bennett a shot at forming a right-wing government or even force yet another election than he would to give Lapid the mandate if Netanyahu is no longer an option this time around.  I was asking b/c I assume you and Parrotguy would know better than I if this is likely to happen.  

My worry is that Likud might ultimately agree to Bennett and Netanyahu doing a rotation and that Netanyahu’s coalition partners and Gideon Sa’ar’s party might go for that as well.  I suppose a sticking point might be who goes first (Sa’ar in particular might not be on board with Netanyahu going first and the latter would presumably insist doing so).  There may be no real chance of this happening, but I wasn’t sure (hence my question).  

Rivlin is very “impartial” with his authority, and though he would rather have a right wing government he operates by somewhat objective transparent standards as a president.
He
Tomorrow the Knesset will elect new deputy speakers so the presidential elections will be held soon

[jaymichaud]

It seems there is going to be a dispute between Lapid and Bennett who ought to get the mandate from the president to form the government (partially symbolic as the rotation government allows both to form one and be first\second, partially substantial as there's fear Bennett might still try to form some right-wing government).
Meanwhile, Meretz and Labour activists (with their complete misunderstanding of politics) are starting an online campaign to get major ministries in said government. Claiming that as their combined strength equals that of Sa'ar and Bennett they ought to get the same power. Well, that it is of course ridiculous because we all know they can't be allowed to appear as if they somehow thwarted the anti-Bibi government. 

It's still important to put pressure from the left imo. The left exists and it can't be totally ignored like that- the current government suggestion is ridiculous. Obviously Bennet and Sa'ar's 13 will be worth more than the left's 13, but the left's 13 should be worth something. I'd say something along the line of Home and Education Ministries as well as two or three more ministries is fair.

They have no way to put the squeeze here. Home office for Michaeli, and Economy for Horowitz is the most, maybe two junior portfolios for Zandberg and Bar Lev

That would be reasonable, but in the current state Shaked vetoed Home for Michaeli because it's "ideological". I know the religious zionists think they're superior human beings, but there's no way Labour and Meretz should agree to getting absolutely nothing out of this. I'd say the reasonable thinkg would be 3 Ministries (including Home) for Labour and 2 (one like Economy or Health and the other a junior position) for Meretz.

That’s 5 ministries for 13 MKs, considering the new government would be at most 24 members big, and YA have to allocate a lot to their people that’s a bit out of order.
Zandberg can take Social Equality or somewhere else she won’t do damage in. Most of Labour’s bench are rookies with zero political experience. Give them house committees over ministries.

That's fair. The problem is that the current negotiating position of the right isn't fair. Af least one major ministry like Home should be non negotiable.

It would be prudent to bloc together and demand one top portfolio (not sure the home office is the one they'd want) and other junior ministries. Though knowing Meretz they would rather negotiate separately and incompently.

It is actually quite a pickle. we have 6 parties roughly the same size and slightly bigger YA. and as YB aren't counted with the right bloc this time it means again some problem in manning offices to have equal weight.

Gantz and Liberman will both demand 2 ministries each with each getting a senior one. YA have a lot of people waiting on the side line for a ministry. It would see that the left could either get 1 big one and 2 very small ones or just small ones. But as I don't see Zandberg backing down on getting a ministry it would be difficult to appease everyone here. Just to show you that the left isn't that different from the right when it comes to their egos.

It is pretty ridiculous that YB is counted with the left. Seems to me like a mistake in framing.

Well, they recommended Lapid, and unless Lieberman is willing to tie his faith with Bennett who would be able to sack him at any moment that's the ways the ministries will be divided.

I think Bennet and Lapid can take PM and foreign office and rotate between them. Gantz remains at Defence, Lieberman can take the treasury, Sa'ar Justice, Shaked Home Office, Michaeli Economy, Horowitz Transporation, and the rest could be divided on bloc lines. Immigration will be given to Tamana-Shata. Welfare to Shasha-Bitton. Barbibai will probably stay as chairman of the defence committee but other YA seniors will get portfolios. Bar Lev might be dumb enough to take interior security.

I'm happy as long as Shaked is away from Justice and Zandberg is away from an economic office.

In what way are Labor and Meretz different in terms of economics?

[Hnv1]

It seems there is going to be a dispute between Lapid and Bennett who ought to get the mandate from the president to form the government (partially symbolic as the rotation government allows both to form one and be first\second, partially substantial as there's fear Bennett might still try to form some right-wing government).
Meanwhile, Meretz and Labour activists (with their complete misunderstanding of politics) are starting an online campaign to get major ministries in said government. Claiming that as their combined strength equals that of Sa'ar and Bennett they ought to get the same power. Well, that it is of course ridiculous because we all know they can't be allowed to appear as if they somehow thwarted the anti-Bibi government. 

It's still important to put pressure from the left imo. The left exists and it can't be totally ignored like that- the current government suggestion is ridiculous. Obviously Bennet and Sa'ar's 13 will be worth more than the left's 13, but the left's 13 should be worth something. I'd say something along the line of Home and Education Ministries as well as two or three more ministries is fair.

They have no way to put the squeeze here. Home office for Michaeli, and Economy for Horowitz is the most, maybe two junior portfolios for Zandberg and Bar Lev

That would be reasonable, but in the current state Shaked vetoed Home for Michaeli because it's "ideological". I know the religious zionists think they're superior human beings, but there's no way Labour and Meretz should agree to getting absolutely nothing out of this. I'd say the reasonable thinkg would be 3 Ministries (including Home) for Labour and 2 (one like Economy or Health and the other a junior position) for Meretz.

That’s 5 ministries for 13 MKs, considering the new government would be at most 24 members big, and YA have to allocate a lot to their people that’s a bit out of order.
Zandberg can take Social Equality or somewhere else she won’t do damage in. Most of Labour’s bench are rookies with zero political experience. Give them house committees over ministries.

That's fair. The problem is that the current negotiating position of the right isn't fair. Af least one major ministry like Home should be non negotiable.

It would be prudent to bloc together and demand one top portfolio (not sure the home office is the one they'd want) and other junior ministries. Though knowing Meretz they would rather negotiate separately and incompently.

It is actually quite a pickle. we have 6 parties roughly the same size and slightly bigger YA. and as YB aren't counted with the right bloc this time it means again some problem in manning offices to have equal weight.

Gantz and Liberman will both demand 2 ministries each with each getting a senior one. YA have a lot of people waiting on the side line for a ministry. It would see that the left could either get 1 big one and 2 very small ones or just small ones. But as I don't see Zandberg backing down on getting a ministry it would be difficult to appease everyone here. Just to show you that the left isn't that different from the right when it comes to their egos.

It is pretty ridiculous that YB is counted with the left. Seems to me like a mistake in framing.

Well, they recommended Lapid, and unless Lieberman is willing to tie his faith with Bennett who would be able to sack him at any moment that's the ways the ministries will be divided.

I think Bennet and Lapid can take PM and foreign office and rotate between them. Gantz remains at Defence, Lieberman can take the treasury, Sa'ar Justice, Shaked Home Office, Michaeli Economy, Horowitz Transporation, and the rest could be divided on bloc lines. Immigration will be given to Tamana-Shata. Welfare to Shasha-Bitton. Barbibai will probably stay as chairman of the defence committee but other YA seniors will get portfolios. Bar Lev might be dumb enough to take interior security.

I'm happy as long as Shaked is away from Justice and Zandberg is away from an economic office.

In what way are Labor and Meretz different in terms of economics?

Meretz have a larger socialist fanatic wing. Labour’s one is hardly represented in the current list. Zandberg is trying to fashion herself as some AOC with ludicrous expanses plans

[AelroseB]

Interesting question from a journalist, re: rotating PMs where Netanyahu still remains physically in Balfour.  How would/could security adequately protect the other PM?

[Hnv1]

Interesting question from a journalist, re: rotating PMs where Netanyahu still remains physically in Balfour.  How would/could security adequately protect the other PM?

Gantz had his private house secured to the highest standard. Actually, Bibi’s security detail is much larger than needed due to...mental health issues. The same issues that relate to his insistence to stay in Balfour street.

[Hnv1]

This fiasco today is incredibly insane. There's a spin within a spin on a spin.

The Likud Party is basically a crime family at this point, and I'd be happy to see a military coup.

[Angel of Death]

I'd be happy to see a military coup.

No, you don't. See Turkey.

[Mike88]

This fiasco today is incredibly insane. There's a spin within a spin on a spin.

The Likud Party is basically a crime family at this point, and I'd be happy to see a military coup.

What happened?

[Hnv1]

This fiasco today is incredibly insane. There's a spin within a spin on a spin.

The Likud Party is basically a crime family at this point, and I'd be happy to see a military coup.

What happened?

There is no Minister of Justice, Nissenkorn was sacked by Gantz and Gantz was interim minister for three months. the SC issued a writ demanding the government discuss the appointment of a new minister. Gantz demanded it will be himself, as that ministry was related to his bloc according to the Rotation Government sworn in and the new Basic Law.

Bibi for unknown (though probably dubious) reasons refuses to allow any such appointment. He agreed to discuss but not to authorize the appointment. The government didn't confirm Gantz as full minister. But then Likud suddenly argued "the coalition agreement is void" as it was for the former Knesset and they can nominate their own candidate. BS as the coalition agreement is not legally binding, what's binding is the government sworn in and the interim government articles of the basic law. So they nominated Akunis (Likud) although the basic law clearly dictates only Gantz can nominate someone. and then they "passed' the nomination with a simple majority despite the equal strength clause in the basic law. The SC is going to null this in an hour.

now let's leave the constitutional law business as most here aren't Israeli jurists. Likud knew that this all thing was against the law. Still voted on it. Claimed he's the new minister. and now calling the imminent court ruling a coup against democracy! we are talking about an interim government with no confidence of the house!

The cynism and outright audacity of these moves merit Bibi's ousting by the SC.

[Hnv1]

Bibi completed a royal cave-in, after realizing the SC will admonish him on live television and say the rotation agreement is in full force, Bibi backs down and agrees to the appointment of Gantz as Minister of Justice.

His days are numbered

[CumbrianLefty]

Bibi completed a royal cave-in, after realizing the SC will admonish him on live television and say the rotation agreement is in full force, Bibi backs down and agrees to the appointment of Gantz as Minister of Justice.

His days are numbered

We have heard *that* before, tbf.

[Mike88]

Bibi completed a royal cave-in, after realizing the SC will admonish him on live television and say the rotation agreement is in full force, Bibi backs down and agrees to the appointment of Gantz as Minister of Justice.

His days are numbered

Jesus. The coalition deal being a legal document for Likud is hilarious. It's obvious that until a new cabinet is sworn in, everything is done by the what was agreed in the previous government, thus the term interim.

He's toasted but who's next in line to be PM? From what I read, Lapid is a bit stuck too.

[Hnv1]

The Bennett-Lapid axis is gaining pace, Bennett met with Abbas today, Sa'ar is due to meet him tomorrow. It seems Ra'am will full-on vote for the government giving it a majority of 62 at least in confirmation. After Bibi legitimatized dealing with them, and his little horror show it seems he's digging his own grave.

Lapid needs to demand to be the one getting the mandate though, to prevent any chance whatsoever Bennett goes right in the end

[Hnv1]

Bibi completed a royal cave-in, after realizing the SC will admonish him on live television and say the rotation agreement is in full force, Bibi backs down and agrees to the appointment of Gantz as Minister of Justice.

His days are numbered

Jesus. The coalition deal being a legal document for Likud is hilarious. It's obvious that until a new cabinet is sworn in, everything is done by the what was agreed in the previous government, thus the term interim.

He's toasted but who's next in line to be PM? From what I read, Lapid is a bit stuck too.

Again Bibi’s personality screwing him over in the end. The only reason the coalition agreement is legally binding is that he is so untrustworthy B&W demanded it will be put into the constitution! So we became a banter state with a rotation in it's constitution, but that came back to bite him in the arse.

Now I never much fancied Bibi, not even in the "he's competent" sense. I think he's 95% show with little substance and falls under pressure. It seems his sins of the past decade are all coming back to bite him in the arse together at the same time. happy days

[Oppo]

Apologies if this is the wrong place to post this, but does anyone have any access to opinion polls for the 1981 Israeli election. Read that an Alignment landslide was initially expected and I wanted to know how big it was project to be.

[Hnv1]

Apologies if this is the wrong place to post this, but does anyone have any access to opinion polls for the 1981 Israeli election. Read that an Alignment landslide was initially expected and I wanted to know how big it was project to be.

I think there might be some opinion polls in old newspapers. If you can read Hebrew I know Maariv and Haaretz have their archives online in different places.
Though, polling wasn’t big in Israel in 1981, exit polls were introduced for the first time in 1977 and normal polling was hardly done. Expectations were modelled according to what pundits thought. Only towards 92 we started having regular polling, and it really became a thing towards 96 with the direct elections to PM.

There was an assumption Labour were leading due to the bad economic situation at that time, DASH’s voters leaning to Labour, and Weitzman׳s resignation. Some say the Ossirac (futile) operation on the eve of the election tilted the balance back. I have my doubts, the 80’s were as polarised as now and the blocs hardly shifted. Peres and Rabin pushed away Navon who was the only one seen as viable in ending the deadlock. The only reason governments were formed was pressure from the president and decorum Bibi always lacked.

[Velasco]

 I think it's amazing to see how passionate can be the discussion  on whether the leader of the National (Netanyahu) or the Conservative (Bennett) parties become PM, using the Afrikaner nationalist equivalents to Likud and Yamina. In the end, this situation of endless deadlock and election repetitions is a mere symptom of some malfunction

[bigic]

I think it's amazing to see how passionate can be the discussion  on whether the leader of the National (Netanyahu) or the Conservative (Bennett) parties become PM, using the Afrikaner nationalist equivalents to Likud and Yamina. In the end, this situation of endless deadlock and election repetitions is a mere symptom of some malfunction

To be fair, this ignores that Lapid (~Democratic Party) is also likely to become the PM, and that leftist and Arab parties are somewhat significant.

[AussieB]

I think it's amazing to see how passionate can be the discussion  on whether the leader of the National (Netanyahu) or the Conservative (Bennett) parties become PM, using the Afrikaner nationalist equivalents to Likud and Yamina. In the end, this situation of endless deadlock and election repetitions is a mere symptom of some malfunction

While you for sure are one of the best posters on here, your stance on Israel is disturbing. Especially coming from a Spaniard, a country which actively denies the right to self determination to Basques and Catalans, and doesn't recognize the right to unilateral secession (Kosovo). Why are Palestinians worthy of a state while others aren't?

[Velasco]

I think it's amazing to see how passionate can be the discussion  on whether the leader of the National (Netanyahu) or the Conservative (Bennett) parties become PM, using the Afrikaner nationalist equivalents to Likud and Yamina. In the end, this situation of endless deadlock and election repetitions is a mere symptom of some malfunction

To be fair, this ignores that Lapid (~Democratic Party) is also likely to become the PM, and that leftist and Arab parties are somewhat significant.

The equivalences are not complete (they never are), for Israel has proportional representation and a multi-party political system (not to mention the oddity of Shas and UTJ).

 Lapid is not the equivalent to a Democratic Party leader,  because his political faction has never questioned the apartheid state. The only loose equivalent to that liberal party in Israeli politics is Meretz. On the other hand, the Zionist left is irrelevant these days (Labor is a walking corpse). In the past the zionist faction reprsesented by Ben Gurion and and his successors was somewhat reminiscent of the United Party (imo), while the rightwing revisionist faction has a clear counterpart in the National Party.

Finally the 'Arab' parties are systematically ignored, so their role in Israeli politics is anecdotal, aside from voicing their opposition to apartheid (I value the role of Odeh, but he's powerless). For that matter,  they could be part of a 'colored' chamber

[Velasco]

I think it's amazing to see how passionate can be the discussion  on whether the leader of the National (Netanyahu) or the Conservative (Bennett) parties become PM, using the Afrikaner nationalist equivalents to Likud and Yamina. In the end, this situation of endless deadlock and election repetitions is a mere symptom of some malfunction

While you for sure are one of the best posters on here, your stance on Israel is disturbing. Especially coming from a Spaniard, a country which actively denies the right to self determination to Basques and Catalans, and doesn't recognize the right to unilateral secession (Kosovo). Why are Palestinians worthy of a state while others aren't?

I think talking about Basque Country and Catalonia in relation to the situation of Israel-Palestine is mixing apples and oranges. I have no problem in discussing if Basques and Catalans have the right to self-determination (surely I stated my opinion on this subject more than once), but regardless what you may think, the population of these regions is not living under an oppressive military dictatorship, apartheid or colonial regime. Catalans and Basques are Spanish citizens enjoying full rights. I know, the Spanish government is contrary to the indy-ref, but even separatists live in a democratic state and are protected from abuse by the laws ruling for all. Trying to compare these realities with the situation of a stateless people submitted to a brutal military occupation -under an apartheid or a colonial regime- must be a joke, because otherwise I don't understand what are you trying to mean with your post.

I don't support unilateral seccession as a general rule (I'm in the opinion these processes must be negotiated), even though I admit the situation of Kosovo was special because of the blatant oppression by the Milosevic regime. These matters are complex. As for the Palestinians, rather than a separate state for them, I simply advocate they enjoy the same status of the Jewish Israelis. The fact the former are not allowed to do the same things the latter are permitted, is the most obvious evidence of the existence of an apartheid regime.  Do you think is disturbing that Palestinians are allowed to vote the government that rules over their lives?

[America Needs R'hllor]

TEXT TEXT TEXT TEXT jews don't have the right to self determination TEXT TEXT TEXT TEXT