Libertarian Party Inside Baseball Politics Thread

[StateBoiler]

I'm finishing up listening to my state's central committee monthly meeting from October, and want to share an incredibly local item that occurred close to me that epitomizes the value of libertarianism. A lady had an electrical fire in the attic in her home in Bourbon, Indiana, that made it so she could not live in her home. House is a total loss. She worked out with the insurance company that in the interim she, her husband, and grandson would live in an RV on the property. More rural area but was still subject to a zoning board. Couple of her neighbors filed a complaint with the zoning board of an RV being on her property and she got cited. South Bend local TV affiliate reported on the story then at which point the Libertarian district area rep found out about it and contacted her. A fundraiser was organized and held on her behalf, $312 was raised and all of it given to her, this was publicized in Libertarian Party of Indiana circles, and some of our members including the State Party Chair attended the zoning board meeting where her variance hearing was and argued on her behalf.

You can listen to the full issue described here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hfQ1oFrO1A&t=9166s

South Bend local TV news story on it: https://www.wndu.com/2021/09/15/fire-destroys-bourbon-womans-home-zoning-board-says-no-temporary-home/

The local Democratic and Republican parties in contrast did not care that a woman was losing her right to live on her property she owns through no fault of her own due to government regulations. The zoning board members are all appointees of the elected County Commissioners.

[Badger]

I'm finishing up listening to my state's central committee monthly meeting from October, and want to share an incredibly local item that occurred close to me that epitomizes the value of libertarianism. A lady had an electrical fire in the attic in her home in Bourbon, Indiana, that made it so she could not live in her home. House is a total loss. She worked out with the insurance company that in the interim she, her husband, and grandson would live in an RV on the property. More rural area but was still subject to a zoning board. Couple of her neighbors filed a complaint with the zoning board of an RV being on her property and she got cited. South Bend local TV affiliate reported on the story then at which point the Libertarian district area rep found out about it and contacted her. A fundraiser was organized and held on her behalf, $312 was raised and all of it given to her, this was publicized in Libertarian Party of Indiana circles, and some of our members including the State Party Chair attended the zoning board meeting where her variance hearing was and argued on her behalf.

You can listen to the full issue described here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hfQ1oFrO1A&t=9166s

South Bend local TV news story on it: https://www.wndu.com/2021/09/15/fire-destroys-bourbon-womans-home-zoning-board-says-no-temporary-home/

The local Democratic and Republican parties in contrast did not care that a woman was losing her right to live on her property she owns through no fault of her own due to government regulations. The zoning board members are all appointees of the elected County Commissioners.

 FWIW call while this is a good outcome, I'm not sure it's at all necessary to have an active Libertarian Party for this period one of the villages I represent as solicitor is there past such an ordinance on its own without an emergency on going just in case it should happen in the future. Primarily conservative republicans, but at least one Democrat as remember and another serving as clerk.

[Saint Milei]

The LP is pretty garbage outside the Mises Caucus and the MC is pretty useless. All effective libertarians don't vote, are independents, or working inside the GOP

Yeah ok, do you have anything of substance to add here?

Are you a libertarian?

[PSOL]

The LP is pretty garbage outside the Mises Caucus and the MC is pretty useless. All effective libertarians don't vote, are independents, or working inside the GOP

Yeah ok, do you have anything of substance to add here?

Are you a libertarian?

Non-factor

The Libertarian Party, sadly, is going through a period of extensive growth and popular support never before seen in its history. They've elected hundreds of elected officials the past two years alone and stand to win federal and state level offices in the next four years. Given the extensive structural barriers to third parties, this is unseen since the rise of the Socialist Party of America. Like all groups, being an "independent" is antisocial nonsense that leads nowhere politically and fusionism/entryism is dumb as a strategy and has led nowhere. The modern GOP isn't exactly advocating for downsizing of governance nor have ever helped out small businesses.

[Saint Milei]

The LP is pretty garbage outside the Mises Caucus and the MC is pretty useless. All effective libertarians don't vote, are independents, or working inside the GOP

Yeah ok, do you have anything of substance to add here?

Are you a libertarian?

Non-factor

The Libertarian Party, sadly, is going through a period of extensive growth and popular support never before seen in its history. They've elected hundreds of elected officials the past two years alone and stand to win federal and state level offices in the next four years. Given the extensive structural barriers to third parties, this is unseen since the rise of the Socialist Party of America. Like all groups, being an "independent" is antisocial nonsense that leads nowhere politically and fusionism/entryism is dumb as a strategy and has led nowhere. The modern GOP isn't exactly advocating for downsizing of governance nor have ever helped out small businesses.

Ok that's cool and all, but it's still ineffective even with the period of growth and the divisions within the party are drastic. Not mention nearly every effective libertarian is not a member of the LP. There are more libertarians (non-LP types) in NH's state legislature than the LP has elected nationally.

The modern LP isn't exactly advocating for a traditional libertarian message.

[PSOL]

The LP is pretty garbage outside the Mises Caucus and the MC is pretty useless. All effective libertarians don't vote, are independents, or working inside the GOP

Yeah ok, do you have anything of substance to add here?

Are you a libertarian?

Non-factor

The Libertarian Party, sadly, is going through a period of extensive growth and popular support never before seen in its history. They've elected hundreds of elected officials the past two years alone and stand to win federal and state level offices in the next four years. Given the extensive structural barriers to third parties, this is unseen since the rise of the Socialist Party of America. Like all groups, being an "independent" is antisocial nonsense that leads nowhere politically and fusionism/entryism is dumb as a strategy and has led nowhere. The modern GOP isn't exactly advocating for downsizing of governance nor have ever helped out small businesses.

Ok that's cool and all, but it's still ineffective even with the period of growth and the divisions within the party are drastic. Not mention nearly every effective libertarian is not a member of the LP. There are more libertarians (non-LP types) in NH's state legislature than the LP has elected nationally.

The modern LP isn't exactly advocating for a traditional libertarian message.

That’s the norm for most movements that are successful, that it’s a big tent.

No s••• it isn’t traditional, or else they would be advocating for socialism, but the Libertarian party is the closest thing to a pure organization assembling the views of what the mainstream views as libertarian.

[StateBoiler]

Not mention nearly every effective libertarian is not a member of the LP. There are more libertarians (non-LP types) in NH's state legislature than the LP has elected nationally.

That is true, but what real influence did Thomas Massie's libertarianism for example have on the conduct of the Republican Party while Donald Trump was president and the party had a majority in the House? To argue that Republicans believe in small government, greater freedom, and the government should not tell you what to do is laughable if you are a Republican that defends Trump's presidency. Republicans' only use for libertarian ideals is low taxes. That's it, they don't believe in anything else libertarian.

Republicans and Democrats both now believe in a strong central government with a superpowered president that rules by executive order allowing the people that agree with them do what they want while dictating laws to the people that do not agree with them. You can even see the former with the Democrats in the SALT tax reduction which considering the party's rhetoric of "tax the rich" is the height of hypocrisy.

Considering Democrats in wide swathes of the country have completely died, there's an opening there for a new 2nd party to emerge as the Republicans' predominant challenger at least on a regionalized/local level. Where I live Republicans have monopoly power on county government. Democrats did not run a single candidate in 2020. There's still a lot of pissed off business owners and individuals about the actions of county government, and it's not like these people embrace the Democratic Party.

[Saint Milei]

Not mention nearly every effective libertarian is not a member of the LP. There are more libertarians (non-LP types) in NH's state legislature than the LP has elected nationally.

That is true, but what real influence did Thomas Massie's libertarianism for example have on the conduct of the Republican Party while Donald Trump was president and the party had a majority in the House? To argue that Republicans believe in small government, greater freedom, and the government should not tell you what to do is laughable if you are a Republican that defends Trump's presidency. Republicans' only use for libertarian ideals is low taxes. That's it, they don't believe in anything else libertarian.

Republicans and Democrats both now believe in a strong central government with a superpowered president that rules by executive order allowing the people that agree with them do what they want while dictating laws to the people that do not agree with them. You can even see the former with the Democrats in the SALT tax reduction which considering the party's rhetoric of "tax the rich" is the height of hypocrisy.

Considering Democrats in wide swathes of the country have completely died, there's an opening there for a new 2nd party to emerge as the Republicans' predominant challenger at least on a regionalized/local level. Where I live Republicans have monopoly power on county government. Democrats did not run a single candidate in 2020. There's still a lot of pissed off business owners and individuals about the actions of county government, and it's not like these people embrace the Democratic Party.

If by conduct you mean record, you definitely had more Republicans opposing militarism globally than we've seen in a long-time and that's probably the most issue libertarians care about. I'm not sure what the party itself believes, but I can certainly see the base of Republican voters right now being more willing to deal with libertarian issues either because they have moved that way in recent years or because of the left pissing people off so much. It's easier to argue for removing kids from public schools in this era due to CRT and wokeism. It's easier to argue about big tech, the media, government censorship, civil liberties being violated, etc in this era. 10 Years ago, the GOP would not have cared. As a result, much more liberty-minded individuals have been getting elected both federally and locally.


The LP is and always will be a mess. The LP wants to be a relevant party and as a result, focuses on catering to a group of people that will never submit to its ideas. That ruins any purity and is quite hypocritical.

[StateBoiler]

Here's a great one from our November state meeting. We have an elected Libertarian on this one city council. He got a call from the County Election Board that said "we were doing redistricting for the city and we missed putting your house and those of 5 of your neighbors in any district. You will be unable to run for office or vote in city elections. You still live in the city and are still subject to city taxes and ordinances." State Election Board thankfully were all over it before our state party was and told the county "no, redo it". Apparently down to local incompetence as no one was around that did redistricting 10 years ago, but makes you wonder.

[StateBoiler]

Harlos has been acting like she was not removed at all and continuing in a shadow capacity "doing her duties the delegates elected her to at the past Convention". She's been taking minutes of the LNC meetings, sending info out about the upcoming 2022 Convention to states...

[PSOL]

There’s currently a power struggle in the Delaware state party over control of the party

The main constitution splinter, Life & Liberty, has decided to become a caucus in the Libertarian Party

[StateBoiler]

There’s currently a power struggle in the Delaware state party over control of the party

Appears to be a renegade meeting that was not well publicized and may not have reached quorum. Should be open and shut if that's the case. Looks like LNC just stated have a new meeting with all members present and whoever has the most support wins, although one side appealed saying this should be withdrawn, which tells me they're not the strong one.

The main constitution splinter, Life & Liberty, has decided to become a caucus in the Libertarian Party

I read J.R. Myers' posts on it, and don't get that at all. There's never been much sign "Life & Liberty" has anything underneath it beyond the aforementioned Mr. Myers.

[OSR stands with Israel]

The GOP is undoubtedly more libertarian today than they were in the Bush years, and it would be extremely laughable to argue otherwise.

[StateBoiler]

The GOP is undoubtedly more libertarian today than they were in the Bush years, and it would be extremely laughable to argue otherwise.

It is complete unadulterated bullsh**t to act like Donald Trump or the people inside the Republican Party that serve Donald Trump are libertarian in the slightest. If you do not understand that you do not understand libertarian vs. statist swing on the pendulum at all. If you wish to have a further conversation on that, private message me and we can have a philosophical discussion about it via phone call, email, PM's, whatever.

[OSR stands with Israel]

The GOP is undoubtedly more libertarian today than they were in the Bush years, and it would be extremely laughable to argue otherwise.

It is complete unadulterated bullsh**t to act like Donald Trump or the people inside the Republican Party that serve Donald Trump are libertarian in the slightest. If you wish to have a further conversation on that, private message me and we can have a philosophical discussion about it. Phone, email, PM's, whatever.

Saying they are more libertarian than they were in the Bush years doesn't mean they are libertarian lol rather just relatively more than they used to be. For example the GOP today:


- Is Far less Interventionist abroad than they were in the Bush years

- Far more distrusting of institutions than they were in the Bush years

- No where near as big of Drug Warriors as they were in the Bush years

- Fall more in the individual liberty side in the age old safety vs liberty debate while in the Bush years they clearly stood on the side of safety

- Far Less Moralists than they were in the Bush years and way more secular as well

[StateBoiler]

The GOP is undoubtedly more libertarian today than they were in the Bush years, and it would be extremely laughable to argue otherwise.

It is complete unadulterated bullsh**t to act like Donald Trump or the people inside the Republican Party that serve Donald Trump are libertarian in the slightest. If you wish to have a further conversation on that, private message me and we can have a philosophical discussion about it. Phone, email, PM's, whatever.

Saying they are more libertarian than they were in the Bush years doesn't mean they are libertarian lol rather just relatively more than they used to be. For example the GOP today:

- Is Far less Interventionist abroad than they were in the Bush years

- Far more distrusting of institutions than they were in the Bush years

- No where near as big of Drug Warriors as they were in the Bush years

- Fall more in the individual liberty side in the age old safety vs liberty debate while in the Bush years they clearly stood on the side of safety

- Far Less Moralists than they were in the Bush years and way more secular as well

Who is the GOP you are talking about here and can you find for me the votes held for the organization that defined the party had that position as a whole or mostly whole?

[PSOL]

Conflict in the Massachusetts Party as special convention called for

This is the lead up to the most fractious and conflicted period the party has faced since the end of the Dallas Accords in 2005.

[PSOL]

The Mises Caucus has been expelled from the MA state association per LP insiders



The LNC has motioned to censure Joshua Smith

[StateBoiler]

Maps that were shared on Independent Political Report

Best presidential candidate performance by county:



Best presidential candidate performance by county ex-Johnson 2016.



The mapmaker also did the Green Party's candidates.

[StateBoiler]

The Mises Caucus has been expelled from the MA state association per LP insiders



The LNC has motioned to censure Joshua Smith

Ah. Wasn't aware of those things, been busy early this year doing county party things. The Smith censure is interesting. He's on the LNC and was runner-up to Bilyeu for the vacant LP Chair position, but as they went from 6 candidates down to 1, his vote count never went up, all the add-ons went to Bilyeu.

Indiana has our convention in 10 days. We're planning on nominating more candidates than we ever have before, the convention is where we will nominate statewide, Congress, and state legislature candidates.

[PSOL]

The Mises Caucus has leadership in MA and have gotten a string of other victories

[Continential]

Well the Mises Caucus has officially taken over the Libertarian Party.

[PSOL]

It was an incredibly decisive victory. Of course, the nature of US politics means that state and local branches of US parties have immense power in their own right. Many people are threatening to leave, and I suspect more people will be expelled. The libertarian party will experience something similar to the Green party's conundrum where it will take some time for consolidation and an end to the wrecking habits of a core group of people.

Of course, I expect things to get murky real fast. The Mises Caucus refuses to run in areas where they favor the republicans, and given they prefer the likes of Trump or DeSantis over any democrat entirely for cultural owning of the libs, they are at risk of devolving to the mistakes made by the Green party in 2004–2008 or the Constitution party now, which is not running for office against "spoiling" the vote.

I expect all the #neverTrump Republicans to leave as the money dries up from the Koch foundation. Then I suspect the real conflict begins where the factional infighting statewide leads to total disintegration of chapters in swing and safe states and a lot of nasty overreach by the right faction.

[Continential]

It is funny seeing Darryl Perry oppose the Mises Caucus because he was the "pure" libertarian candidate six years ago but I suppose it isn't surprising since the caucus is more altrightish.

Many people are threatening to leave, and I suspect more people will be expelled.

Vermin Supreme has resigned from the Judicial Committee and it seems like he'll be on the chopping block or decide to check out.

[ElectionsGuy]

Very low IQ people are going to repeat tired talking points about how this caucus is somehow "alt-right fascist Republicans" coming into the Libertarian Party.

The victories were overwhelming, more than 2/3rds for every office. Maybe if those that repeat those tired talking points - including some self-described "libertarians" (revealing themselves for who they really are) - would think about that for a minute it would seem extremely laughable and absurd. How do 2/3rds of libertarian delegates from all around the country become far-right fascist and racists in just 2 years' time? I would expect that kind of statement from Democrats who label anything to the right of Elizabeth Warren "far-right". But these "libertarians" seem to care more about being virtuous and opposing anything that's slightly right-wing, more than liberty. They are behaviorally Democrats. Basically neoliberals - progressives who like the free market.

The LNC over the last 2 years has been extremely hostile to the Mises Caucus, tried to disaffiliate state parties friendly to them, and removed Caryn Ann Harlos form her Secretary role (where she received >70% of the vote at this convention after getting only 50% in 2020). Former Chair Nick Sarwark even sent out a letter accusing the Mises Caucus of being what I described in the beginning of the post. Not realizing how his antics have led to this moment, not realizing the LP's leadership has been out of step and outright hostile with it's rank and file and it created a massive backlash that culminated this weekend.

The Mises Caucus got created in response to Bill Weld being the VP nominee in 2016. They didn't want Weld to be the face of the party in 2020 and beyond, because he was a John Kasich endorsing "Never Trump" style Republican more than he was a libertarian, and that was reflected very much in his statements and campaign with Gary. Sarwark and others wanted more people like that in the LP, and crafted messaging to pander to them, despite those people having little/nothing in common with most libertarians. The MC got less than a quarter of the vote in 2020, a little less than a majority on average in 2020, and now >2/3rds in 2022. That's not all new people, they've actively changed hearts and minds. The backlash that boosted the MC in 2020 and beyond was the lack of response by the national party to lockdowns and covid mandates, and the embrace by some of BLM and identity politics. These people are very different from Republicans on criminal justice, on foreign policy, and many social issues (drugs, prostitution, etc.), they just want a party that doesn't cater to the left and establishment more than it promotes actual libertarian policy during the worst crackdowns of civil liberties in our lifetimes.