Titles of Nobility Amendment

[Bandit3 the Worker]

This is the cool amendment I'm talking about...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles_of_Nobility_Amendment

This amendment would say that U.S. citizens may not accept titles of nobility. I think recent crises illustrate why this amendment is needed. It's not just Trump but also the unelected ghouls who have been influencing the botched covid response.

Kentucky has already approved this amendment, and a few other states have too. We need to get this amendment up to the 38 states it needs.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Seems kind of pointless.

It would strip United States citizenship from any citizen who accepted a title of nobility from an "emperor, king, prince or foreign power."

How many people has this applied to in the past hundred years? Anyone besides Grace Kelly and Meghan Markle? (Also not seeing how allowing them to retain US citizenship is a problem.)

[Bandit3 the Worker]

Seems kind of pointless.

It would strip United States citizenship from any citizen who accepted a title of nobility from an "emperor, king, prince or foreign power."

How many people has this applied to in the past hundred years? Grace Kelly? Anyone else?

Ronald Reagan.

[politicallefty]

It's an antiquated concept from a very different time. Wouldn't this strip some Americans of citizenship for having been knighted by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II? That's not legitimate grounds for stripping citizenship or preventing anyone from holding office.

[brucejoel99]

It would strip United States citizenship from any citizen who accepted a title of nobility from an "emperor, king, prince or foreign power."

How many people has this applied to in the past hundred years? Anyone besides Grace Kelly and Meghan Markle? (Also not seeing how allowing them to retain US citizenship is a problem.)

Wallis Simpson, too.

[Gary JG]

The Duchess of Sussex does not herself have a title of nobility, in the strict sense. She has what is known as a courtesy title, as the wife of the actual holder of the title of nobility. If the proposed amendment was adopted, the federal judiciary might have to grapple with the considerable complexity of what is or is not a title of nobility in US constitutional law. This might not be the most worthwhile use of scarce judicial resources.

[LtNOWIS]

What about the part where it says "or shall, without the consent of Congress, accept and retain any present, pension, office or emolument of any kind whatever"?

So now if the Prince of Monaco wants to give a stipend to his illegitimate American-born daughter or her mother, or even like a Christmas gift, they have to get congressional approval or lose their citizenship?

[brucejoel99]

What about the part where it says "or shall, without the consent of Congress, accept and retain any present, pension, office or emolument of any kind whatever"?

So now if the Prince of Monaco wants to give a stipend to his illegitimate American-born daughter or her mother, or even like a Christmas gift, they have to get congressional approval or lose their citizenship?

Yes, accepting even a stipend or Christmas gift from a foreign prince without Congress' permission would cost the recipient their American citizenship. That was kind of the point, after all: divorcing the U.S. from the allure of the European aristocracy.

[StateBoiler]

If the proposed amendment was adopted, the federal judiciary might have to grapple with the considerable complexity of what is or is not a title of nobility in US constitutional law. This might not be the most worthwhile use of scarce judicial resources.

Since when has that stopped politicians?

There's a plausible future under the radar scandal of sorts of a Prince Harry and his wife living in southern California and having children that are treated as royalty. Archie Mountbatten-Windsor is very high-up in the British royal line of succession and has dual citizenship with the UK and U.S.. Give it 15 years, he'll be referred to by the media as "the American Royal".

The "Archie" scenario is one the amendment was kind of referring to. In this instance Harry (Jerome) is the brother to #3 who will be the eventual king (Napoleon) provided no car wrecks in tunnels occur in the interim, and Archie was like Jerome Napoleon Bonaporte not born in the U.S., but in the UK, nevertheless he would hold U.S. citizenship through his mother.

One theory for why the Congress proposed the amendment is that it was in response to the 1803 marriage of Napoleon Bonaparte's younger brother, Jerome, and Betsy Patterson of Baltimore, Maryland, who gave birth to a boy for whom she wanted aristocratic recognition from France. The child, named Jérôme Napoléon Bonaparte, was not born in the United States, but in the United Kingdom on July 7, 1805 – nevertheless, he would have held U.S. citizenship through his mother. Another theory is that his mother actually desired a title of nobility for herself and, indeed, she is referred to as the "Duchess of Baltimore" in many texts written about the amendment. The marriage had been annulled in 1805 – well before the amendment's proposal by the 11th Congress. Nonetheless, Representative Nathaniel Macon of North Carolina is recorded to have said, when voting on the amendment, that "he considered the vote on this question as deciding whether or not we were to have members of the Legion of Honor in this country."

[brucejoel99]

If the proposed amendment was adopted, the federal judiciary might have to grapple with the considerable complexity of what is or is not a title of nobility in US constitutional law. This might not be the most worthwhile use of scarce judicial resources.

Since when has that stopped politicians?

There's a plausible future under the radar scandal of sorts of a Prince Harry and his wife living in southern California and having children. Archie Mountbatten-Windsor is very high-up in the British royal line of succession and has dual citizenship with the UK and U.S.. Give it 15 years, he'll be referred to by the media as "the American Royal".

The "Archie" scenario is one the amendment was kind of referring to. In this instance Harry (Jerome) is the brother to #3 who will be the eventual king (Napoleon) provided no car wrecks in tunnels occur in the interim, and Archie was like Jerome Napoleon Bonaporte not born in the U.S., but in the UK, nevertheless he would hold U.S. citizenship through his mother.

One theory for why the Congress proposed the amendment is that it was in response to the 1803 marriage of Napoleon Bonaparte's younger brother, Jerome, and Betsy Patterson of Baltimore, Maryland, who gave birth to a boy for whom she wanted aristocratic recognition from France. The child, named Jérôme Napoléon Bonaparte, was not born in the United States, but in the United Kingdom on July 7, 1805 – nevertheless, he would have held U.S. citizenship through his mother. Another theory is that his mother actually desired a title of nobility for herself and, indeed, she is referred to as the "Duchess of Baltimore" in many texts written about the amendment. The marriage had been annulled in 1805 – well before the amendment's proposal by the 11th Congress. Nonetheless, Representative Nathaniel Macon of North Carolina is recorded to have said, when voting on the amendment, that "he considered the vote on this question as deciding whether or not we were to have members of the Legion of Honor in this country."

Archie 2056!

[StateBoiler]

If the proposed amendment was adopted, the federal judiciary might have to grapple with the considerable complexity of what is or is not a title of nobility in US constitutional law. This might not be the most worthwhile use of scarce judicial resources.

Since when has that stopped politicians?

There's a plausible future under the radar scandal of sorts of a Prince Harry and his wife living in southern California and having children. Archie Mountbatten-Windsor is very high-up in the British royal line of succession and has dual citizenship with the UK and U.S.. Give it 15 years, he'll be referred to by the media as "the American Royal".

The "Archie" scenario is one the amendment was kind of referring to. In this instance Harry (Jerome) is the brother to #3 who will be the eventual king (Napoleon) provided no car wrecks in tunnels occur in the interim, and Archie was like Jerome Napoleon Bonaporte not born in the U.S., but in the UK, nevertheless he would hold U.S. citizenship through his mother.

One theory for why the Congress proposed the amendment is that it was in response to the 1803 marriage of Napoleon Bonaparte's younger brother, Jerome, and Betsy Patterson of Baltimore, Maryland, who gave birth to a boy for whom she wanted aristocratic recognition from France. The child, named Jérôme Napoléon Bonaparte, was not born in the United States, but in the United Kingdom on July 7, 1805 – nevertheless, he would have held U.S. citizenship through his mother. Another theory is that his mother actually desired a title of nobility for herself and, indeed, she is referred to as the "Duchess of Baltimore" in many texts written about the amendment. The marriage had been annulled in 1805 – well before the amendment's proposal by the 11th Congress. Nonetheless, Representative Nathaniel Macon of North Carolina is recorded to have said, when voting on the amendment, that "he considered the vote on this question as deciding whether or not we were to have members of the Legion of Honor in this country."

Archie 2056!

JFK Jr. redux.

The more I think about it the more this man is going to be treated by media as the American Royal. He's going to live in Los Angeles, the most starf*#kerish place on earth!

He'll turn 18 in 2037 so we're kind of fine until then, although I imagine when he becomes 15 or so media coverage will start ramping up.

(By the way, the Titles of Nobility Amendment is still pending.)

[Dereich]

What about the part where it says "or shall, without the consent of Congress, accept and retain any present, pension, office or emolument of any kind whatever"?

So now if the Prince of Monaco wants to give a stipend to his illegitimate American-born daughter or her mother, or even like a Christmas gift, they have to get congressional approval or lose their citizenship?

Yes, accepting even a stipend or Christmas gift from a foreign prince without Congress' permission would cost the recipient their American citizenship. That was kind of the point, after all: divorcing the U.S. from the allure of the European aristocracy.

But think of the millions poor Americans who would lose their citizenship for the crime of helping a Nigerian prince in need.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Umm, this already exists.

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

I don’t see why we need more than that.

[StateBoiler]

Umm, this already exists.

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

I don’t see why we need more than that.

Incorrect. That says that a federal employee or federally-elected politician cannot for example accept a dukedom from the Queen of England.

The Titles of Nobility Amendment would extend it to all U.S. citizens.

[SteveRogers]

This is the cool amendment I'm talking about...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles_of_Nobility_Amendment

This amendment would say that U.S. citizens may not accept titles of nobility. I think recent crises illustrate why this amendment is needed. It's not just Trump but also the unelected ghouls who have been influencing the botched covid response.

Kentucky has already approved this amendment, and a few other states have too. We need to get this amendment up to the 38 states it needs.

Um, what do titles of nobility have to do with Trump or the botched Covid response?