Arminianism vs. Calvinism and Jansenism vs. Jesuitism
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  Arminianism vs. Calvinism and Jansenism vs. Jesuitism
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Question: Where do you stand on two of the most important religious controversies of the 17th century?
#1
Arminianism/Jansenism
 
#2
Arminianism/Jesuitism
 
#3
Calvinism/Jansenism
 
#4
Calvinism/Jesuitism
 
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Total Voters: 14

Author Topic: Arminianism vs. Calvinism and Jansenism vs. Jesuitism  (Read 1435 times)
Paul Weller
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« on: December 04, 2020, 03:07:15 PM »
« edited: December 05, 2020, 11:22:32 AM by HenryWallaceVP »

Two of the most important intra-Protestant and intra-Catholic theological debates of the 17th century were that between Arminianism and Calvinism on the one hand, and Jansenism and Jesuitism on the other. Whether you are Protestant, Catholic, or neither, which side do you find more sympathetic or closer to your own views?

In the first instance I side with the Arminians. In my opinion the Calvinist view on salvation is too strict, while I find the greater leniency of the Arminians on that matter appealing. In a political context I also generally prefer Arminianism. In the affair of the Remonstrants, those who supported Arminianism were allied with the republican Dutch States Party and supported religious toleration, while the established Dutch Reformed Church chose to link itself to the cause of Orangism and the ambitions of the Stadholder. It is awful what happened to Oldenbarvenelt, but he died a martyr for the cause. Thankfully Hugo Grotius, a massive FF, was able to escape the clutches of the Stadholder.

However, I should note that politically speaking, the sides were completely reversed in England and thus so are my preferences in that country. In his attempts to forcibly impose episcopacy upon the Three Kingdoms, Archbishop Laud was lambasted by the Calvinist Puritans for being an Arminian. Totally opposite to the Netherlands, it was the Calvinists who supported a republican commonwealth and religious toleration, while the Arminians in the Anglican Church fought for absolute monarchy and religious uniformity.*

Moving on to the Catholics, I definitely prefer the Jansenists. I like the mysticism of the movement and its crypto-Protestantism, as well as its association with leading intellectuals like Blaise Pascal. I'm also inclined to sympathize with the persecuted (part of why I was always more drawn to Protestants than Catholics in the first place), and the Jansenists were definitely that in 17th and 18th century France.

As for the Jesuits, their servile loyalty to the Pope and heretic-hunting is completely anathema to me. In my opinion the Jesuit order was a deeply malevolent force on European politics, being the primary movers behind repressive Counter-Reformation policies, and I'm glad they were finally expelled from most of Europe with the coming of the Enlightenment in the 18th century. Their only saving grace is that their American missions often helped defend Natives against the greater brutality of the Spanish and Portuguese Crowns.

*For more on the politico-religious struggle between monarchy and republic and its effects on war and diplomacy, I would highly highly recommend Protestantism and Patriotism: Ideologies and the Making of English Foreign Policy, 1650-1668 by Steven Pincus (I have a PDF if anyone is interested; PM me).
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Battista Minola 1616
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« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2020, 03:20:38 PM »

I normally don't take poison pills (your description of Jesuits lmao) but Jansenism was a famously important influence on Alessandro Manzoni Purple heart
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Paul Weller
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« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2020, 03:35:59 PM »

I normally don't take poison pills (your description of Jesuits lmao) but Jansenism was a famously important influence on Alessandro Manzoni Purple heart

That’s not a poison pill. It’s what I think to be a fairly accurate assessment of the Jesuit order in early modern Europe. Disagree with it all you like, but provide reasons. I actually think most Catholics today would agree with me on that, just like many condemn the illicit activities of the Borgia Popes and the more violent aspects of the Crusades.
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Nathan
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« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2020, 03:37:21 PM »

Theologically Arminian, politically Calvinist/Theologically Jesuit, politically Jansenist (normal, insane).
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afleitch
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« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2020, 03:44:21 PM »

No comment...

AMDG
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Paul Weller
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« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2020, 03:58:51 PM »

Theologically Arminian, politically Calvinist/Theologically Jesuit, politically Jansenist (normal, insane).

Could you please elaborate?


I'm surprised considering your comments in the other thread.
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Nathan
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« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2020, 04:03:54 PM »

Theologically Arminian, politically Calvinist/Theologically Jesuit, politically Jansenist (normal, insane).

Could you please elaborate?

In a bit, yeah. I'm technically still at work.

Quote

I'm surprised considering your comments in the other thread.

You can take the gay Humanist out of the Jesuit school, but you can't take the Jesuit education out of the gay Humanist.
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afleitch
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« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2020, 04:41:42 PM »

Theologically Arminian, politically Calvinist/Theologically Jesuit, politically Jansenist (normal, insane).

Could you please elaborate?


I'm surprised considering your comments in the other thread.

As Nathan noted, I was Jesuit educated. I'm always going to be biased. It's not a theological or doctrinal thing at all. Smiley Though I can get into it if you want.

And I can still belt out a mean Gregorian Pater Noster
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Paul Weller
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« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2020, 10:47:14 PM »

Theologically Arminian, politically Calvinist/Theologically Jesuit, politically Jansenist (normal, insane).

Could you please elaborate?

In a bit, yeah. I'm technically still at work.

Thanks, I'm looking forward to it.

Theologically Arminian, politically Calvinist/Theologically Jesuit, politically Jansenist (normal, insane).

Could you please elaborate?


I'm surprised considering your comments in the other thread.

As Nathan noted, I was Jesuit educated. I'm always going to be biased. It's not a theological or doctrinal thing at all. Smiley Though I can get into it if you want.
And I can still belt out a mean Gregorian Pater Noster

Please do, I'd appreciate it.
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Kingpoleon
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« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2020, 11:48:47 PM »

Arminianism is the more logical and consistent thesis, and its proponents have historically been better than the Calvinists.
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Statilius the Epicurean
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« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2020, 01:28:41 PM »
« Edited: December 05, 2020, 01:37:04 PM by Statilius the Epicurean »

Obviously I don't have a theological opinion, but there are some aspects of Calvinism like Limited Atonement that I don't understand how could fit into the Christian message ordinarily understood. Calvinism seems to me a very 'lawyerly' interpretation of Christianity, and not in a good sense.

I don't know enough about the Jansenist controversy to give an answer to the second, but the Jesuits have always been an intellectually rigorous order I have some respect for.
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FEMA Camp Administrator
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« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2020, 04:26:36 PM »

Armenianism.
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Battista Minola 1616
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« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2020, 05:27:52 PM »


I get it, to Catholic and Protestant debates, you prefer Orthodox ones.
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Antonio the Sixth
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« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2020, 12:31:43 AM »

My understanding is that Jansenism actually got the better out of French religious politics during the 18th century, and that they weren't necessarily nicer to the Jesuits than they had been to them. Ultimately, I'd call out both sides here, especially because I really do value Jesuits being a relative force for good in Latin America (plus our current FF Pope being one might bias me a little Tongue).

Definitely Arminianism over Calvinism, though.
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
Nathan
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« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2020, 10:59:07 AM »

Theologically Arminian, politically Calvinist/Theologically Jesuit, politically Jansenist (normal, insane).

Could you please elaborate?

In a bit, yeah. I'm technically still at work.

Thanks, I'm looking forward to it.

Sorry to to take so long to get around to this.

The tl;dr is that I absolutely hate the idea of limited atonement and dislike the rigorism of Jansenist moral theology, whereas I approve of the proto-democratic instincts that many Calvinists and Jansenists had in the temporal sphere.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2020, 11:18:42 AM »

Guess Tongue
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Battista Minola 1616
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« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2020, 11:21:06 AM »


I was actually thinking about writing "Lol, Calvinism is getting ratio'ed. RIP DC Al Fine" but you posted first Tongue
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