Flag burning

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Am I the only one here who actually agrees with the Jehova's Wintesses on this btw?

Elevating the flag to some sort of legally protected status is basically just furthering the idoltary already given to it. That's the reason I refuse to salute the flag or say the pledge of allegiance, it is idoltary simply, and I won't pledge allegience to any sort of wordly power, or treat it with any sort of reverance.

[MODU]

Flag burning clearly is symbolic speech. 

So is cross burning.

If it wasn't, an amendment would not be necessary; a law would suffice.

My feeling on it from a legal standpoint is simply that we should abide by the Supreme Court's interpretation of the first amendment and not override their judgement by an amendment; amendments should be reserved for areas in which we want to increase or decrease the overall power of government, not simply due to a disagreement over interpretation.

If enough justices are appointed to overturn that decision, so be it; I would not support a constitutional amendment to specifically protect the right to burn the flag. Considering it was only 5-4, and Thomas, Alito, and Roberts have joined the Court since then, there may be a decent chance of that happening now.

The purpose of an amendment is to override the Supreme Court.  That is why the provision is put in there by the Constitution.  As far as it not changing the first amendment, it simply isn't.  What it is doing is voiding out a faulty decision by a split court which removed one of our rights.  Twice legislation has been tried and overturned by the Supreme Court based solely off of the faulty ruling, so in order to re-establish the right, an amendment is being submitted which restores the rights of the people and the states.  Much will be said to when Kelo legislation comes up and gets knocked down by the Supreme court.  Their next course of action would be an amendment, since citizens can't just sit around and wait for Justices to die off and hope that a new one is appointed which will overturn the faulty ruling a few decades later.

So North Korea's and Iran's should be protected? You think someone burning a Sudanese flag to protest Darfur should be arrested?

Yes and Yes.  All three nations are sovereign.

So? That doesn't mean anyone is under any obligation to respect them, nor shoud anyone, considering their horrendous policies.

Not fully understanding what you are asking, but I assume you are saying like "Everyone is under the obligation to respect these countries in question, even though they have horrendous policies?"  The answer is yes.  You respect the country, since the country is more than just their leader.  You can protest the policies and their leaders, but their flag is more . . . it's the symbol of the citizens of that nation, and they are the innocent bystanders caught in the game of international politics.  People need to learn where to put the blame.  In discussions, you blame Bush for his policies but not all American citizens, right?  The same holds true when you discuss/protest international issues.

(Ok, I got to stop responding for now and get back to work.  Someone else can pick it up from here.)

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

So North Korea's and Iran's should be protected? You think someone burning a Sudanese flag to protest Darfur should be arrested?

Yes and Yes.  All three nations are sovereign.

So? That doesn't mean anyone is under any obligation to respect them, nor shoud anyone, considering their horrendous policies.

Not fully understanding what you are asking, but I assume you are saying like "Everyone is under the obligation to respect these countries in question, even though they have horrendous policies?"  The answer is yes.  You respect the country, since the country is more than just their leader.  You can protest the policies and their leaders, but their flag is more . . . it's the symbol of the citizens of that nation, and they are the innocent bystanders caught in the game of international politics.  People need to learn where to put the blame.  In discussions, you blame Bush for his policies but not all American citizens, right?  The same holds true when you discuss/protest international issues.

(Ok, I got to stop responding for now and get back to work.  Someone else can pick it up from here.)

That's actually not true in the case of North Korea, since there has always only been one Korea, and when the regime in the North falls, there will be no reason for the seperation anymore. The seperation of Korea and hence the state of the North are inseperable from the regime.

[© tweed]

Flag burning clearly is symbolic speech. 

So is cross burning.

Your point?

[7,052,770]

Am I correct that this amendment already passed the House and that one more Yea vote would've sent this to the states?

If so, I oughta mail personal thank yous to Bennett and McConnell, and scathing denouncements to Feinstein and the other Dems (REID!) who've broken my heart.

[Nym90]

Am I correct that this amendment already passed the House and that one more Yea vote would've sent this to the states?

If so, I oughta mail personal thank yous to Bennett and McConnell, and scathing denouncements to Feinstein and the other Dems (REID!) who've broken my heart.

You are correct. This had passed the House, and almost certainly would have been ratified by at least 38 states. Essentially it was one vote in the Senate from becoming a part of the Constitution.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Am I correct that this amendment already passed the House and that one more Yea vote would've sent this to the states?

If so, I oughta mail personal thank yous to Bennett and McConnell, and scathing denouncements to Feinstein and the other Dems (REID!) who've broken my heart.

Since she's certainly going to win with or without my vote, I've got to decide whether Feinstein deserves my vote in November. I already voted for one of the complete nobodies running against her in the primary.

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

I support both flag and politican burning.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Am I correct that this amendment already passed the House and that one more Yea vote would've sent this to the states?

If so, I oughta mail personal thank yous to Bennett and McConnell, and scathing denouncements to Feinstein and the other Dems (REID!) who've broken my heart.

yeah well things will likely get better. As Nym pointed out, there's really no anti-amendment seats likely to flip. Tester is on record of being against it too, so we can probably count on one pick up there.

And yes, Bennett and McConnell actually did save the day.

[12th Doctor]

Wieghing in a bit late

You might all be suprised to know that I opposed the Flag Burning Ammendment, and any illegalization of flag burning.  Picking and choosing exactly what and what does not constitute a symbol of this country is sketchy territory, at best.  I personally oppose flag burning, but any law banning it would be treading onto unsound logical, moral and legal territory.

[??????????]

Wieghing in a bit late

You might all be suprised to know that I opposed the Flag Burning Ammendment, and any illegalization of flag burning.  Picking and choosing exactly what and what does not constitute a symbol of this country is sketchy territory, at best.  I personally oppose flag burning, but any law banning it would be treading onto unsound logical, moral and legal territory.

Yes, it's not obvious that a flag is a symbol of a country.

[12th Doctor]

Wieghing in a bit late

You might all be suprised to know that I opposed the Flag Burning Ammendment, and any illegalization of flag burning.  Picking and choosing exactly what and what does not constitute a symbol of this country is sketchy territory, at best.  I personally oppose flag burning, but any law banning it would be treading onto unsound logical, moral and legal territory.

Yes, it's not obvious that a flag is a symbol of a country.

No, honestly, it is not obvious.  Is the Confederate Flag a symbol of our country?  Some people would argue it is.

But I was acctually arguing from the other angle.  If I can't burn an American flag because it is a symbol of America, should I also not be allowed to burn a picture of Geroge Washington?  Or a cheap $5 copy of the Consititution?

More over, what if I spit on the flag, but don't burn it?  Is that not showing the same level of disrespect?  What if I bury the flag?  Or tear it?

What is I take one of those cheap little 1 inch x 1 inch papaer flags that you find on cup cakes, or in a bag of army men and burn it?  Am I breaking the law?  Are you offended by me doing that?

What constitutes a "protest"?

Answer some of these questions for me, then we can have an honest conversation about it.

[HardRCafé]

In NJ, a pro-amendment Democrat is in trouble in his reelection bid.

In New Jersey, no pro-amendment Democrat has a re-election bid.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

I'm surprised the Republicans didn't hold the vote open until they could bribe enough people like they did for the Big Pharma Medicare giveaway in the House.

[MODU]

Am I correct that this amendment already passed the House and that one more Yea vote would've sent this to the states?

If so, I oughta mail personal thank yous to Bennett and McConnell, and scathing denouncements to Feinstein and the other Dems (REID!) who've broken my heart.

You are correct. This had passed the House, and almost certainly would have been ratified by at least 38 states. Essentially it was one vote in the Senate from becoming a part of the Constitution.

All 50 states have submitted letters of request to Congress for the Flag Protection Amendment.  It would be ratified easily.

[Nym90]

In NJ, a pro-amendment Democrat is in trouble in his reelection bid.

In New Jersey, no pro-amendment Democrat has a re-election bid.

Menendez voted yes on this amendment.

[Virginian87]

Wieghing in a bit late

You might all be suprised to know that I opposed the Flag Burning Ammendment, and any illegalization of flag burning.  Picking and choosing exactly what and what does not constitute a symbol of this country is sketchy territory, at best.  I personally oppose flag burning, but any law banning it would be treading onto unsound logical, moral and legal territory.

Yes, it's not obvious that a flag is a symbol of a country.

No, honestly, it is not obvious.  Is the Confederate Flag a symbol of our country?  Some people would argue it is.

But I was acctually arguing from the other angle.  If I can't burn an American flag because it is a symbol of America, should I also not be allowed to burn a picture of Geroge Washington?  Or a cheap $5 copy of the Consititution?

More over, what if I spit on the flag, but don't burn it?  Is that not showing the same level of disrespect?  What if I bury the flag?  Or tear it?

What is I take one of those cheap little 1 inch x 1 inch papaer flags that you find on cup cakes, or in a bag of army men and burn it?  Am I breaking the law?  Are you offended by me doing that?

What constitutes a "protest"?

Answer some of these questions for me, then we can have an honest conversation about it.

Supersoulty makes an excellent point in this amendment.  It's not about desecration of an American icon; it's about the ambiguous definition of the term "American icon".

[Virginian87]

On a lighter note, all this talk of flag burning in the news made me remember this parody of the "I'm Just a Bill" Schoolhouse Rock song from the Simpsons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haNlGYCssio

[MODU]

Just to clarify things:  The Confederacy is not a sovereign nation today, just like Nazi Germany isn't (as I explained before).  The US Flag is the internationally recognized symbol of our nation, just as are all the other national flags of the world.  Pictures of Washington or text copies of the Constitution are not.  As far as small scraps of paper made in the shape and color of flags, they do not meet the recognized definition of a national flag (even a kid can tell the difference between a real flag and a small paper one).

[12th Doctor]

Just to clarify things:  The Confederacy is not a sovereign nation today, just like Nazi Germany isn't (as I explained before).  The US Flag is the internationally recognized symbol of our nation, just as are all the other national flags of the world.  Pictures of Washington or text copies of the Constitution are not.  As far as small scraps of paper made in the shape and color of flags, they do not meet the recognized definition of a national flag (even a kid can tell the difference between a real flag and a small paper one).

I think you missed my point.

First off, the basis for declaring that the flag cannot be burned is because it is a national symbol and burning it is regarded as a direct assult against the idea of the United States.  All I am saying is that lots of different people have lots of different ideas on what constitutes a symbol of the United States.  Should we, therefore, move to protect all things that a majority of the people see as being national symbols?  What if only 49% of the people think Martin Luther King is a symbol of the United States... should his image not be protected?  I'm sure most people think that George Washington is a symbol of the US... should we grant his image the same protection.

How is the little paper American Flag different from a large lawn flag?  Are you comfortable marking where the distiction begins and ends?  I'm sure that the Official Protocol of the United States Flag has a distiction, but are you really comfortable using a protocol?

As for the arbietrary protection against burning the flag, why not protect the flag against other forms of disrespect?  There are many.  Should I be arrested for leaving my flag out in a storm?  Should I serve five years for letting it touch the ground?  These are considered signs of disrespect according to official protocol.  So, shoudl we just constitutionalize the entire US Flag Protocol?  I haven't seen one in a while, but it is about 15 pages long, as I recall.

If you answered yes to this, then should it be illegal to hang a flag upside down?  The Official Flag Protocol is against it.  However, US Navy and Coast Gaurd Protocol clearly states that an upside-down flag is a sign of distress.

So... why is buring the flag so special when compared to these other forms of disrespect?  How do we deal with determining what is respectful and what is not?  Are we really willing to put these notions of respect and disrespect in the Constitution?  What about other national symbols?  Why is the flag more important than they are?

Fianlly, what almost bothers me worse about this whole thing than anything else is this.  I highly doubt that there are 20 Senators who were honestly gung ho about the Ammendment.  Instead, I would say that probably more than half of those who voted "Aye" did so out of fear of looking unpatriotic.

[Conan]

I hope Democrats penalize their defectors.

[MODU]

Soulty, just to summaries your questions.

flag as national symbol:  Flags are the international symbols for each country.  That is why flags are displayed behind national leaders in international meetings rather than pictures of the various nations capitals.

What would be protected:  Official flags are denoted under federal code (sizes, dimentions, etc) and would be further clarified under Congressional legislation once the Flag Protection Amendment is passed.  Paper flags, sjeets painted as flags, etc are just representatons.

Arbitrary protection: The Flag Protection Amendment protects the flag from desecration (burning, vandalism, etc).  Burning is just the example most oftenly mentioned.  A flag that touches the ground should be retired, but if it occurs by accident, and not intentionally as a form of disrespect, it isn't desecration.

Upside down:  no.  Again, the amendment deals with desecration.

Burning the flag being special:  It's not, see above.  It's the example most people use.

Unpatriotic:  Maybe, maybe not.  Maybe they are for once using their heads and ignoring partisanship to do what's right.

[The Duke]

I always believed that I would be able to teach my children that they were lucky to live in a great and wonderful country where they could express their opinions without fear of retribution.  Coming within one vote of losing that is terribly unnerving.

And make no mistake about it, this Amendment would effectively end free speech in America.  Once you start saying that you only have the right to express your opinion if your opinion is not objectionable you have abandoned the central principle behind free speech and gutted the First Amendment.

We are the greatest country on Earth.  But we are not great because we have the best flag, as aesthetically pleasing as the stars and stripes may be.  We are great because we are free, and because our freedoms are protected in our founding documents and cannot be abridged.  To use these founding documents as a political plaything and wantonly erode our basic rights is intolerable.

[Virginian87]

I always believed that I would be able to teach my children that they were lucky to live in a great and wonderful country where they could express their opinions without fear of retribution.  Coming within one vote of losing that is terribly unnerving.

And make no mistake about it, this Amendment would effectively end free speech in America.  Once you start saying that you only have the right to express your opinion if your opinion is not objectionable you have abandoned the central principle behind free speech and gutted the First Amendment.

We are the greatest country on Earth.  But we are not great because we have the best flag, as aesthetically pleasing as the stars and stripes may be.  We are great because we are free, and because our freedoms are protected in our founding documents and cannot be abridged.  To use these founding documents as a political plaything and wantonly erode our basic rights is intolerable.

I could not have said it better myself.

[jerusalemcar5]

I think burning your own private property is fine as long as it is contained.  You cannot legitimately make the case that it is OK to burn your papers, but not your flag.