Covid-19 triage strategy?

[It’s so Joever]

I voted yes because we live in a society.

[Battista Minola 1616]

The "you don't get it" option is strictly reserved to dead0man polls, because we live in a society.

[S019]

I'd say no, but they should be given lower priority, if you go out to a rally or go out to the bar and get sick, you should be aware that there may be consequences.

[It’s so Joever]

My question for all of you in the event of an ICU bed/nurse shortage is who should be triaged first?

Obviously no one wants to talk about it, but it is very possibly coming, and we will have to make some difficult decisions.

What is your idea? Give the anti-maskers first priority out of political correctness?

Why should our nurses and hospital resources be further overwhelmed for those who don't believe/downplay the crisis causing this strain? The answer is simple, they shouldn't.

[S019]

My question for all of you in the event of an ICU bed/nurse shortage is who should be triaged first?

Obviously no one wants to talk about it, but it is very possibly coming, and we will have to make some difficult decisions.

What is your idea? Give the anti-maskers first priority out of political correctness?

Why should our nurses and hospital resources be further overwhelmed for those who don't believe/downplay the crisis causing this strain? The answer is simple, they shouldn't.

Well yeah, in that cask, anti-maskers should be triaged first, hence why I said they should have "lower priority"

[It’s so Joever]

My question for all of you in the event of an ICU bed/nurse shortage is who should be triaged first?

The people who have the best chance of surviving with treatment should be prioritized in the event of limited resources in order to maximize the number of patients who survive. This is obviously preferable to surveying every patient about their ideological beliefs and distributing resources on that basis unless you are a psychopath.

Wearing a mask is not a political belief, it is following the law/rules and doing what is necessary to protect the healthcare system. That is not a political belief, it is a civic duty as an American.
I also think that drunk drivers should be prioritized last for ER treatment if there is some situation where triage is necessary.

I think it is more psychopathic to reward the people who willingly make this worse.
But if wanting to protect those who act responsibly first is psychopathic, then so be it.

[Battista Minola 1616]

My question for all of you in the event of an ICU bed/nurse shortage is who should be triaged first?

The people who have the best chance of surviving with treatment should be prioritized in the event of limited resources in order to maximize the number of patients who survive. This is obviously preferable to surveying every patient about their ideological beliefs and distributing resources on that basis unless you are a psychopath.

Wearing a mask is not a political belief, it is following the law/rules and doing what is necessary to protect the healthcare system. That is not a political belief, it is a civic duty as an American.
I also think that drunk drivers should be prioritized last for ER treatment if there is some situation where triage is necessary.

I think it is more psychopathic to reward the people who willingly make this worse.
But if wanting to protect those who act responsibly first is psychopathic, then so be it.

No one is proposing "rewarding" anyone, dude.

Did Donerail say that anti-maskers should be given higher priority? No. He said that people should not be given high or low priority based on things like "how many times did you wear a mask in the last X days?" but based on the chance of survival.

[DC Al Fine]

If you really think anti-maskers are that wicked, I'd suggest heeding the words of St. Paul:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head. Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good."

[Former President tack50]

My question for all of you in the event of an ICU bed/nurse shortage is who should be triaged first?

Obviously no one wants to talk about it, but it is very possibly coming, and we will have to make some difficult decisions.

What is your idea? Give the anti-maskers first priority out of political correctness?

Why should our nurses and hospital resources be further overwhelmed for those who don't believe/downplay the crisis causing this strain? The answer is simple, they shouldn't.

You are basically making a strawman, but if it comes to triaging people, the peopple that should be given attention first are those with the highest chances of survival if given an ICU bed. In general this will overlap with younger people, those with no/less pre-existing conditions, less disabilities, who will recover better from COVID, etc.

By the way, is the US seriously that bad now? I would understand triaging concerns and death panels in March or April, but now?

[John Dule]

There's no way to prove whether someone is a mask wearer or not, so it's a moot point at best.

[Benjamin Frank]

There's no way to prove whether someone is a mask wearer or not, so it's a moot point at best.

In some cases, there absolutely is.  Those who are ticketed for not wearing a mask or breaking other Covid Safety rules could easily have their name and photo be placed in a database accessible by health professionals.

[Benjamin Frank]

My question for all of you in the event of an ICU bed/nurse shortage is who should be triaged first?

Obviously no one wants to talk about it, but it is very possibly coming, and we will have to make some difficult decisions.

What is your idea? Give the anti-maskers first priority out of political correctness?

Why should our nurses and hospital resources be further overwhelmed for those who don't believe/downplay the crisis causing this strain? The answer is simple, they shouldn't.

You are basically making a strawman, but if it comes to triaging people, the peopple that should be given attention first are those with the highest chances of survival if given an ICU bed. In general this will overlap with younger people, those with no/less pre-existing conditions, less disabilities, who will recover better from COVID, etc.

By the way, is the US seriously that bad now? I would understand triaging concerns and death panels in March or April, but now?

Thins are much worse now than in March or April.

[Benjamin Frank]

By the way, is the US seriously that bad now? I would understand triaging concerns and death panels in March or April, but now?

The 7-day average of deaths is not close to where it peaked at in April but hospitalizations is setting new records, prompting questions about triage priorities. Yesterday's death numbers were remarkably high. These are somewhat dubious numbers given the Thanksgiving backlog and resulting irregularities in reporting (I certainly wouldn't say things are much worse than April), but yeah, things aren't great.

If it weren't for what had been learned about proper use of ventilators or for the anti virals, deaths now would be considerably higher than they were in April.

The record number of cases, also suggests things are going to get worse.  

I think the problem is that many people don't understand how the math works with exponential growth:  the more people who have the virus, the more people who will get the virus.

This is because when people interact with others, the likelihood of interacting with somebody who has the virus is greater.  This is a feedback effect.

If people would behave responsibly, it would provide more freedom for calculated risks to be taken on the other side, like allowing people behaving responsibly to be in the same room with their dying relative.

This is why irresponsible people need to be scorned, shunned and punished, including going to the back of the line for treatment.

[Sol]

It's really peak American liberalism to blame individual sin or whatever for the ballooning Covid cases rather than the policymakers, D and R, who have consistently made terrible choices. From denying that masks work initially, to refusing stimulus for Americans perched on the edge, our government has consistently made choices which the crisis worse rather than better. Ask why you have to triage.

[Benjamin Frank]

It's really peak American liberalism to blame individual sin or whatever for the ballooning Covid cases rather than the policymakers, D and R, who have consistently made terrible choices. From denying that masks work initially, to refusing stimulus for Americans perched on the edge, our government has consistently made choices which the crisis worse rather than better. Asky why you have to triage.

Now you're just trying to pass the buck by scapegoating policymakers.  They haven't been perfect by any means, but that doesn't absolve people from behaving responsibly.

The science was wrong on the masks initially because the scientists have been learning about the virus in real time.  If you expect instant perfection from people you aren't dealing with reality.

[Former President tack50]

By the way, is the US seriously that bad now? I would understand triaging concerns and death panels in March or April, but now?

The 7-day average of deaths is not close to where it peaked at in April but hospitalizations is setting new records, prompting questions about triage priorities. Yesterday's death numbers were remarkably high. These are somewhat dubious numbers given the Thanksgiving backlog and resulting irregularities in reporting (I certainly wouldn't say things are much worse than April), but yeah, things aren't great.

Wow, if things really do get worse than March/April then the fault is 100% on the state governments (and Trump).

Especially in terms of deaths and hospitalizations. I understand testing is now a lot easier than back then, but if just as many people die now, with a whopping 8-9 months to prepare; as they were dying in March/April, when the pandemic was brand new and very unexpected; that is a failure for everyone involved.

For a comparison, since Spain is also one of the countries that performed the worst, the 2nd wave seems to have peaked (for now at least, though even now it has only plateaued and I predict a spike in January and February) at 300 deaths/day on the 7 day rolling average; that would be 33% of the peak in March (900 deaths/day)

The US seem to be right now at 1650 deaths/day when the March peak was 2250, which is 73%. Now covid spreads exponentially, so maybe using linear math is not the greatest argument here. But  yeah it seems the 2nd wave (or 3rd in the US?) was really really bad

[Former President tack50]

There's no way to prove whether someone is a mask wearer or not, so it's a moot point at best.

In theory, you could look at people's criminal records and see if they've been fined before for not obeying a mandatory mask rule, though I think those aren't all that well enforced?

[Benjamin Frank]

By the way, is the US seriously that bad now? I would understand triaging concerns and death panels in March or April, but now?

The 7-day average of deaths is not close to where it peaked at in April but hospitalizations is setting new records, prompting questions about triage priorities. Yesterday's death numbers were remarkably high. These are somewhat dubious numbers given the Thanksgiving backlog and resulting irregularities in reporting (I certainly wouldn't say things are much worse than April), but yeah, things aren't great.

Wow, if things really do get worse than March/April then the fault is 100% on the state governments (and Trump).

Especially in terms of deaths and hospitalizations. I understand testing is now a lot easier than back then, but if just as many people die now, with a whopping 8-9 months to prepare; as they were dying in March/April, when the pandemic was brand new and very unexpected; that is a failure for everyone involved.

For a comparison, since Spain is also one of the countries that performed the worst, the 2nd wave seems to have peaked (for now at least, though even now it has only plateaued and I predict a spike in January and February) at 300 deaths/day on the 7 day rolling average; that would be 33% of the peak in March (900 deaths/day)

The US seem to be right now at 1650 deaths/day when the March peak was 2250, which is 73%. Now covid spreads exponentially, so maybe using linear math is not the greatest argument here. But  yeah it seems the 2nd wave (or 3rd in the US?) was really really bad

Yes, you are also leaving out that the better understanding of treating Covid as well as the antivirals have reduced the deaths by at least 1/3.

So, for a like to like comparison, with some margin of error to be sure, the 1,650 deaths a day now are comparable to about 2,500 deaths a day in March/April.

[RI]

Should we not treat people for heart disease or diabetes who eat fast food?

Should we not treat people for lung cancer who smoke?

Should we not treat people involved in car accidents who don't wear a seatbelt?

[John Dule]

Should we not treat people for heart disease or diabetes who eat fast food?

Should we not treat people for lung cancer who smoke?

Should we not treat people involved in car accidents who don't wear a seatbelt?

Not with taxpayer dollars, certainly.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I would rather leave medical decisions up to medics. Once politics starts to come in to such matters then we enter an extremely dark place.

[SevenEleven]

It's really peak American liberalism to blame individual sin or whatever for the ballooning Covid cases rather than the policymakers, D and R, who have consistently made terrible choices. From denying that masks work initially, to refusing stimulus for Americans perched on the edge, our government has consistently made choices which the crisis worse rather than better. Asky why you have to triage.

What kind of "both sides" trash is this jfc.

[It’s so Joever]

Should we not treat people for heart disease or diabetes who eat fast food?

Should we not treat people for lung cancer who smoke?

Should we not treat people involved in car accidents who don't wear a seatbelt?

In the event of triage?
No, yes, and no.

The first and third only increase the risk of the bearer/consumer, but the second does actually negatively impact others to a high degree.

[It’s so Joever]

It's really peak American liberalism to blame individual sin or whatever for the ballooning Covid cases rather than the policymakers, D and R, who have consistently made terrible choices. From denying that masks work initially, to refusing stimulus for Americans perched on the edge, our government has consistently made choices which the crisis worse rather than better. Asky why you have to triage.

It’s mostly the R’s but aside from that, I agree.

I would support a lot of current office holders losing their jobs and being shunned by society for as long as they live, and that’s being nice.

[Sol]

It's really peak American liberalism to blame individual sin or whatever for the ballooning Covid cases rather than the policymakers, D and R, who have consistently made terrible choices. From denying that masks work initially, to refusing stimulus for Americans perched on the edge, our government has consistently made choices which the crisis worse rather than better. Asky why you have to triage.

It’s mostly the R’s but aside from that, I agree.

I would support a lot of current office holders losing their jobs and being shunned by society for as long as they live, and that’s being nice.

I'd argue that a fair of D governors have biffed the pandemic pretty hard as well--see Andrew Cuomo for example, who pulled off one of the biggest PR coups of all time while shunting Covid patients into nursing homes--thereby condemning the residents, as anyone could have predicted, to certain infection.

That's ignoring the many local officials who did things like, say, permit indoor dining while making school online. I'm not actually against online school but education is way more important that eating at a restaurant.