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December 05, 2020, 05:04:05 PM
News: 2020 Election day live thread: https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=409870.0

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  Individual Politics (Moderators: TexasGurl, Associate Justice PiT)
  Get Off the Track! (1860 runoff)
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Poll
Question: ?
#1
Governor Samuel Jones Tilden (Republican, New York) / Senator Galshua Aaron Grow (Republican, Pennsylvania)
 
#2
Senator Charles Sumner (Liberal, Massachusetts) / Governor Henry Winter Davis (Liberal, Maryland)
 
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Partisan results

Total Voters: 33

Author Topic: Get Off the Track! (1860 runoff)  (Read 448 times)
Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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« on: November 19, 2020, 07:58:30 PM »

As no ticket won a majority of votes in the November presidential election, the new Sixteenth Amendment mandates a runoff between the two top finishers —in this case Republican Governor Samuel Jones Tilden of New York, and Liberal Senator Charles Sumner of Massachusetts.

Two days.
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Mike Madigan for Illinois House Speaker!
S019
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« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2020, 09:16:51 PM »

Sumner again
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KaiserDave
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« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2020, 09:28:39 PM »

Tilden again!
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Elcaspar
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« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2020, 09:53:07 PM »

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TDAS04
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« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2020, 09:59:11 PM »

Sumner
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HenryWallaceVP
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« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2020, 12:50:28 AM »

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I Was So Wrong
Battista Minola 1616
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« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2020, 04:49:32 AM »

Samuel Tilden, again.
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President Elect Biden!!
Kingpoleon
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« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2020, 06:58:03 PM »

Sumner is the only option in these tough times.
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bagelman
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« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2020, 08:29:42 PM »

Tilden. Real 19th century Americans would not want more reconstruction.
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SlamDunk
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« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2020, 12:51:01 PM »

It's fascinating to watch the Republican Party in this timeline slowly turn into a proto-Labor party. Wonder if that trend will continue.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
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« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2020, 08:58:33 PM »

1860 United States presidential election, runoff

Governor Samuel Jones Tilden (Republican, New York) / Senator Galshua Aaron Grow (Republican, Pennsylvania) 51.5% popular votes
Senator Charles Sumner (Liberal, Massachusetts) / Governor Henry Winter Davis (Liberal, Maryland) 48.5% popular votes

The first implementation of the Sixteenth Amendment was not without incident: the runoff election was marred by violence, widespread accounts of fraud and intimidation, particularly in the former Confederacy, where "Red Shirts" either supporting Tilden's election or merely opposing Sumner's employed lynchings and threats of violence to keep black men from the polls. It would take several weeks and a special tripartite Congressional committee to determine that Tilden had won the election. The Republican majority was narrow, Tilden having prevailed by a bare margin of 3% —owing to the support of Redeemers in the lower South, and also ironically to the many black voters who defied the Red Shirts to support the party of Seward and Frémont. Time would tell whether their confidence in the Republicans was well-placed, as a weary nation looked toward a new administration in a new decade.
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Elcaspar
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« Reply #11 on: November 21, 2020, 10:33:59 PM »

So i want to understand some of you Tilden voters. Do you seriously think that the South won't just degenerate again without further Reconstruction? We just missed a prime opportunity to change Southern society for the better, and you just threw that away? So much for fulfilling the promise of the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments.

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KaiserDave
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« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2020, 11:07:13 PM »

This is where Sumner lost me "Sumner's platform is a callback to the Yankee republicanism of an earlier time: denouncing the Republicans as radical redistributionists and attempting to tie Tilden to the liberal and socialist revolutions in Europe, they call for an end to the culture of corruption that has pervaded Washington under Seward and now Frémont, labor reform, temperance, protectionism, and opposition to state involvement in private business ventures."
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I Was So Wrong
Battista Minola 1616
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« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2020, 05:16:54 AM »

Oh that's easy. Everything KaiserDave said, plus Tilden stands for Papist immigrants and Sumner stands for bigoted Yankees.
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Elcaspar
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« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2020, 10:48:37 AM »

Oh that's easy. Everything KaiserDave said, plus Tilden stands for Papist immigrants and Sumner stands for bigoted Yankees.

So let me get this straight. Tilden who said that the work of Reconstruction is over is less of a bigot than Sumner who stands for the continuation of Reconstruction? That seems like rather flawed reasoning.


See below.

Finally, Tilden oversaw the gradual reduction of the federal military presence in the former Confederacy, with the result that Redeemers reclaimed control of several state governments in the lower South in 1861 and 1862.

Well would you look at that. So much for "owning" the Redeemers by voting for Tilden. I hope it was worth it to you still in the end.

With Sumner you would have had much more of actually owning the Redeemers, rather than empowering them by reducing the federal military presence.

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I Was So Wrong
Battista Minola 1616
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« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2020, 10:59:35 AM »

1. You're taking this game too seriously.

2. The end result would have been the same under Sumner, but with more bloodshed.

3. For labour and for Ireland, it was worth it.
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KaiserDave
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« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2020, 11:09:30 AM »

1. You're taking this game too seriously.

2. The end result would have been the same under Sumner, but with more bloodshed.

3. For labour and for Ireland, it was worth it.

Taking it seriously is fun Smiley
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Elcaspar
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« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2020, 11:24:13 AM »

This is where Sumner lost me "Sumner's platform is a callback to the Yankee republicanism of an earlier time: denouncing the Republicans as radical redistributionists and attempting to tie Tilden to the liberal and socialist revolutions in Europe, they call for an end to the culture of corruption that has pervaded Washington under Seward and now Frémont, labor reform, temperance, protectionism, and opposition to state involvement in private business ventures."

Yeah i don't like a lot of those things either, so it was a tough pill to swallow, but in my view the issue of Reconstruction weighs above all others. Even just the potential for a Southern society that would be changed for the better in the long-term made it worth to me.
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HenryWallaceVP
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« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2020, 01:29:14 PM »

I can't believe this forum elected Samuel effing Tilden over Charles Sumner. Undoubtedly Sumner was far too radical for the time and would've lost in a landslide, but on Atlas? One would think this place full of Dunning School acolytes or fans of the first volume of David Herbert Donald's Sumner biography. By the way, James M. McPherson wrote a review of the second volume of said biography called Left of Lincoln. You guys just blew a huge opportunity by preferencing silly Northern identity politics over the actual issue at stake in this election, Reconstruction.
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I Was So Wrong
Battista Minola 1616
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« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2020, 01:41:26 PM »

I can't believe this forum elected Samuel effing Tilden over Charles Sumner. Undoubtedly Sumner was far too radical for the time and would've lost in a landslide, but on Atlas? One would think this place full of Dunning School acolytes or fans of the first volume of David Herbert Donald's Sumner biography. By the way, James M. McPherson wrote a review of the second volume of said biography called Left of Lincoln. You guys just blew a huge opportunity by preferencing silly Northern identity politics over the actual issue at stake in this election, Reconstruction.

Y'all are putting too much confidence in Harry S Truman the Divine Providence to make Reconstruction go how you wish.
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KaiserDave
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« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2020, 01:43:59 PM »

I can't believe this forum elected Samuel effing Tilden over Charles Sumner. Undoubtedly Sumner was far too radical for the time and would've lost in a landslide, but on Atlas? One would think this place full of Dunning School acolytes or fans of the first volume of David Herbert Donald's Sumner biography. By the way, James M. McPherson wrote a review of the second volume of said biography called Left of Lincoln. You guys just blew a huge opportunity by preferencing silly Northern identity politics over the actual issue at stake in this election, Reconstruction.

Northern Identity Politics≠Core Economic Issues

Sumner lost because he's no friend of the working man
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