Habsburgs vs Bourbons

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

My absolute favorite is his talk on Marc Bloch. I was more or less familiar with Bloch's political views and his role in the resistance, and vaguely familiar with his historiographic contributions, but he paints such a vivid picture of the man that has turned him into a personal hero of mine. In a similar vein I love what he had to say about Garibaldi - again I was broadly familiar but my understanding didn't scratch the surface of what a legendary badass he was. I've been promoting Garibaldi Day as an alternative to Columbus Day for years, and now I feel it more strongly than ever.

His series on the medieval mind is excellent too. It really got me into medieval history, which had long been a blind spot for me. I love the installment on Fra' Salimbene, but the other two are fascinating as well. It's a really well-done trilogy.

And yeah his radio series are excellent too - probably the most in-depth historical material you'll find anywhere on Youtube. I loved the one on the Ottoman Empire, but the one on Charlemagne and Frederick the Great Asshole were excellent as well.

I'd never thought about this before long ago because, well, literally who cares about Columbus Day in actual Italy, but in the last months (spent with a lot of browsing of a United States centric site) I've started believing that as well. GARIBALDI DAY! GARIBALDI DAY!

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

I have no love lost for the Bourbons post-Louis XIII, but the Habsburgs were one of the most consistently evil force throughout European history (the Hohenzollerns got even worse once they became prominent, but that happened late enough that they probably still rank behind overall), so it's not a hard choice at all.

And yeah, Southern Italy has a lot of legitimate grievances to voice against their Northern brethren, but neo-Bourbonists are utter clowns.

Do you know who historian Alessandro Barbero is? He once had a debate with some neo-Bourbonist "leaders" and absolutely destroyed them.

I believe I've already read one of his books actually, but on an entirely different subject, the barbarian invasions and conquest of Western Rome

HOLY MARY. The immensity of Barbero going international. His main subject is actually the Middle Ages, in any case.

[Lechasseur]

I have no love lost for the Bourbons post-Louis XIII, but the Habsburgs were one of the most consistently evil force throughout European history (the Hohenzollerns got even worse once they became prominent, but that happened late enough that they probably still rank behind overall), so it's not a hard choice at all.

And yeah, Southern Italy has a lot of legitimate grievances to voice against their Northern brethren, but neo-Bourbonists are utter clowns.

Do you know who historian Alessandro Barbero is? He once had a debate with some neo-Bourbonist "leaders" and absolutely destroyed them.

I believe I've already read one of his books actually, but on an entirely different subject, the barbarian invasions and conquest of Western Rome

HOLY MARY. The immensity of Barbero going international. His main subject is actually the Middle Ages, in any case.

Yep I went and checked, it was written by Barbero

I read the French translation of the book

It's "Barbares : immigrés, réfugiés et déportés dans l'empire Romain" by Alessandro Barbero (published by Editions Tallendier, 2011)

Here's the link below

https://www.tallandier.com/livre/barbares/

It was actually a decent book imo

[Lechasseur]

I have no love lost for the Bourbons post-Louis XIII, but the Habsburgs were one of the most consistently evil force throughout European history (the Hohenzollerns got even worse once they became prominent, but that happened late enough that they probably still rank behind overall), so it's not a hard choice at all.

And yeah, Southern Italy has a lot of legitimate grievances to voice against their Northern brethren, but neo-Bourbonists are utter clowns.

Do you know who historian Alessandro Barbero is? He once had a debate with some neo-Bourbonist "leaders" and absolutely destroyed them.

I believe I've already read one of his books actually, but on an entirely different subject, the barbarian invasions and conquest of Western Rome

HOLY MARY. The immensity of Barbero going international. His main subject is actually the Middle Ages, in any case.

Well when you get down to it, someone who's interested in the Middle Ages should probably be interested in the Barbarian Invasions, as they ended Antiquity and began the Middle Ages.

The Kingdoms of Europe within the former Roman Empire, with the obvious exception of Byzantium, were essentially the descendants of those barbarian kingdoms created as the result of the invasions (and the royalty and aristocracy of Europe were essentially descended of those Germanic tribes, even the House of Savoy was descended of a Saxon aristocrat from Magdeburg who migrated down to Savoy in the 10th Century).

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I'm curious as to what the OP thinks. CrabCake, do you care to enlighten us?

I started this thread because because i didn't know enough about the rise of the Habsburgs to really judge them - I'm mainly familiar with them through the neverending supply of failure they contributed from the 18th century onwards.

I will say that there are certain Habsburgs i don't think were absolutely awful (mainly Maria Theresa) whereas the corresponding "best" bourbons like the Sun King tend to piss me off. Maybe there is something to be said that the Habsburg domains, for all their suckitude, never adopted in full some of the more demented attributes that came from from modern states. Like, say what you want about an ultra conservative fossil like Metternich, if you judge success as avoiding nightmarish great power wars, his stewardship of European politics was a victory of sorts.

[Wikipedia delenda est]

I'm curious as to what the OP thinks. CrabCake, do you care to enlighten us?

I started this thread because because i didn't know enough about the rise of the Habsburgs to really judge them - I'm mainly familiar with them through the neverending supply of failure they contributed from the 18th century onwards.

I will say that there are certain Habsburgs i don't think were absolutely awful (mainly Maria Theresa) whereas the corresponding "best" bourbons like the Sun King tend to piss me off. Maybe there is something to be said that the Habsburg domains, for all their suckitude, never adopted in full some of the more demented attributes that came from from modern states. Like, say what you want about an ultra conservative fossil like Metternich, if you judge success as avoiding nightmarish great power wars, his stewardship of European politics was a victory of sorts.

Maria Theresa was a narrow-minded bigot who expelled the Jews from her realm like a Dark Ages tyrant. And she's one of the better ones, as you said. Ferdinand II, Leopold I, Philip II of Spain, the entire Spanish line for that matter, the list goes on of absolutely awful Habsburgs. Regarding the Bourbons, you mention Louis XIV but not Henri IV, the most religiously tolerant monarch of his time.

What are these demented attributes you're referring to? If you mean things like the Inquisition, that was very much a Habsburg Spain thing. As for Metternich, I'm not going to say anything about him, because I don't really care about the 19th century and the Bourbons were a complete non-factor by that point. What I will say though is that the period of Habsburg hegemony (or "universal monarchy") under Charles V and Philip II was just as full of great power wars as the Grand Siecle under the Sun King, and Spain was usually the aggressor.

Did you read my original post on the first page of the thread, by the way?