83% of Trump supporters think the election was stolen

[anthonyjg]

If Democrats want to steal elections they have to do it legally like Brian Kemp. /s

[morgankingsley]

I never once felt that Biden was going to steal the election and the fact that 60 million others did is just mindblowing

[WMS]

This is what happens when you allow years (and decades) of normalizing the creation of a fake version of reality by one political faction.

Being old enough to have seen this happen before my eyes, it strikes me that the right wing has been planning for over 30 years to do this. Not that their opponents did much to stop the reprogramming of the WWC et al.

[McGarnagle]

If Democrats stole the election why didn't they steal a few extra Senate seats too? Why didn't they shore up their advantage in the House?

Because they didn't steal the election.

[Middle-aged Europe]

If Democrats stole the election why didn't they steal a few extra Senate seats too? Why didn't they shore up their advantage in the House?

Why didn't the Democrats try to steal the election for Hillary in 2016 when they had still control of the executive branch on the federal level and a more "favorable" composition of the Supreme Court?

[Del Tachi]

https://twitter.com/hmcghee/status/1325852575925735426

What is this woman actually calling for?  Social media/cable news to drop all of the (duly-elected) president's speeches/press conferences?  unelected "Deep State" bureaucrats publicly anointing Biden as heir apparent (before the electoral college officially votes, even)?

I swear, can liberals at least not be the thought-policing, crypto-communists their opponents love to make them out to be?  lol

[afleitch]

https://twitter.com/hmcghee/status/1325852575925735426

What is this woman actually calling for?  Social media/cable news to drop all of the (duly-elected) president's speeches/press conferences?  unelected "Deep State" bureaucrats publicly anointing Biden as heir apparent (before the electoral college officially votes, even)?

I swear, can liberals at least not be the thought-policing, crypto-communists their opponents love to make them out to be?  lol

Why should the rest of us manufacture and manifest the false reality that Trumpists live in?

[Del Tachi]

https://twitter.com/hmcghee/status/1325852575925735426

What is this woman actually calling for?  Social media/cable news to drop all of the (duly-elected) president's speeches/press conferences?  unelected "Deep State" bureaucrats publicly anointing Biden as heir apparent (before the electoral college officially votes, even)?

I swear, can liberals at least not be the thought-policing, crypto-communists their opponents love to make them out to be?  lol

Why should the rest of us manufacture and manifest the false reality that Trumpists live in?

It is not a "manufactured false reality" that President Trump has initiated multiple lawsuits re: the election results which, as of this moment, remain unresolved.  Regardless of what Heather McGhee, the liberal media or the red avatars say on this site may say, our institutions are equipped to fairly and transparently resolve allegations of voting fraud or irregularity (like they have for previous elections.)

I hate the term, but what McGhee is saying is that we need to #cancel Trump and his most vocal supporters alleging voting irregularity.  Where was the same outrage when Hillary Clinton called Donald Trump an "illegitmate president" in 2019?  or does norm-busting only matter when it's the Orange Man doing it?

There is no president-elect (officially) until the electoral college convenes and votes on December 14.  Demanding that a duly-elected president and his supporters be blacklisted from the media or that unelected, "civil society" bureaucrats affront the democratic process and declare Biden the winner is no better than what Trump is doing.  The only way you could justify it is on partisan grounds.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

https://twitter.com/hmcghee/status/1325852575925735426

What is this woman actually calling for?  Social media/cable news to drop all of the (duly-elected) president's speeches/press conferences?  unelected "Deep State" bureaucrats publicly anointing Biden as heir apparent (before the electoral college officially votes, even)?

I swear, can liberals at least not be the thought-policing, crypto-communists their opponents love to make them out to be?  lol

Why should the rest of us manufacture and manifest the false reality that Trumpists live in?

It is not a "manufactured false reality" that President Trump has initiated multiple lawsuits re: the election results which, as of this moment, remain unresolved.  Regardless of what Heather McGhee, the liberal media or the red avatars say on this site may say, our institutions are equipped to fairly and transparently resolve allegations of voting fraud or irregularity (like they have for previous elections.)

I hate the term, but what McGhee is saying is that we need to #cancel Trump and his most vocal supporters alleging voting irregularity.  Where was the same outrage when Hillary Clinton called Donald Trump an "illegitmate president" in 2019?  or does norm-busting only matter when it's the Orange Man doing it?

There is no president-elect (officially) until the electoral college convenes and votes on December 14.  Demanding that a duly-elected president and his supporters be blacklisted from the media or that unelected, "civil society" bureaucrats affront the democratic process and declare Biden the winner is no better than what Trump is doing.  The only way you could justify it is on partisan grounds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

If Republicans want to be treated as good-faith participant in society and government, they need to actually be good-faith participants in society and government.

Whining that "no one takes our BS seriously" is, itself, more BS that encourages people to not view Republicans credibly.

See also, Argument to moderation (and no, it doesn't mean appealing to the moderators).

An example of a fallacious use of the argument to moderation would be to regard two opposed arguments—one person saying that the sky is blue, while another claims that the sky is in fact yellow—and conclude that the truth is that the sky is green. While green is the colour created by combining blue and yellow, therefore being a compromise between the two positions, the sky is obviously not green, demonstrating that taking the middle ground of two positions does not always lead to the truth.

Vladimir Bukovsky maintained that the middle ground between the big lie of Soviet propaganda and the truth was itself a lie, and one should not be looking for a middle ground between information and disinformation. According to him, people from the Western pluralistic civilization are more prone to this fallacy because they are used to resolving problems by making compromises and accepting alternative interpretations—unlike Russians, who are looking for the absolute truth

(This goes along with my belief that modern Republicans are themselves rejecting Western civilization. Republicans have weaponized their rejection of societal and governmental norms. As Americans we are used to compromise on a great many issue of public policy. That leaves us with a social and political toolkit that isn't really designed to deal with positions that are not capable of compromise, such as: "The United States should abandon rule of law and representative government, and instead have a privileged ruling class dominated by white male Republicans".)

[Del Tachi]

https://twitter.com/hmcghee/status/1325852575925735426

What is this woman actually calling for?  Social media/cable news to drop all of the (duly-elected) president's speeches/press conferences?  unelected "Deep State" bureaucrats publicly anointing Biden as heir apparent (before the electoral college officially votes, even)?

I swear, can liberals at least not be the thought-policing, crypto-communists their opponents love to make them out to be?  lol

Why should the rest of us manufacture and manifest the false reality that Trumpists live in?

It is not a "manufactured false reality" that President Trump has initiated multiple lawsuits re: the election results which, as of this moment, remain unresolved.  Regardless of what Heather McGhee, the liberal media or the red avatars say on this site may say, our institutions are equipped to fairly and transparently resolve allegations of voting fraud or irregularity (like they have for previous elections.)

I hate the term, but what McGhee is saying is that we need to #cancel Trump and his most vocal supporters alleging voting irregularity.  Where was the same outrage when Hillary Clinton called Donald Trump an "illegitmate president" in 2019?  or does norm-busting only matter when it's the Orange Man doing it?

There is no president-elect (officially) until the electoral college convenes and votes on December 14.  Demanding that a duly-elected president and his supporters be blacklisted from the media or that unelected, "civil society" bureaucrats affront the democratic process and declare Biden the winner is no better than what Trump is doing.  The only way you could justify it is on partisan grounds.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

If Republicans want to be treated as good-faith participant in society and government, they need to actually be good-faith participants in society and government.

Whining that "no one takes our BS seriously" is, itself, more BS that encourages people to not view Republicans credibly.

See also, Argument to moderation (and no, it doesn't mean appealing to the moderators).

An example of a fallacious use of the argument to moderation would be to regard two opposed arguments—one person saying that the sky is blue, while another claims that the sky is in fact yellow—and conclude that the truth is that the sky is green. While green is the colour created by combining blue and yellow, therefore being a compromise between the two positions, the sky is obviously not green, demonstrating that taking the middle ground of two positions does not always lead to the truth.

Vladimir Bukovsky maintained that the middle ground between the big lie of Soviet propaganda and the truth was itself a lie, and one should not be looking for a middle ground between information and disinformation. According to him, people from the Western pluralistic civilization are more prone to this fallacy because they are used to resolving problems by making compromises and accepting alternative interpretations—unlike Russians, who are looking for the absolute truth

(This goes along with my belief that modern Republicans are themselves rejecting Western civilization. Republicans have weaponized their rejection of societal and governmental norms. As Americans we are used to compromise on a great many issue of public policy. That leaves us with a social and political toolkit that isn't really designed to deal with positions that are not capable of compromise, such as: "The United States should abandon rule of law and representative government, and instead have a privileged ruling class dominated by white male Republicans".)

What is or is not in good faith is inherently subjective and open to debate.  Trying to shut down that debate is what Democrats, not Republicans, are trying to do.

[Ferguson97]

What is or is not in good faith is inherently subjective and open to debate.  Trying to shut down that debate is what Democrats, not Republicans, are trying to do.

This is not up for debate. Biden won fair and square. Republicans are trying to either cheat their way into a second Trump term, or delegitimize the process for some other nefarious reason.

Trump lost. Cope with it. Grow up. Put on your big boy pants and try and focus on the midterms.

[Del Tachi]

What is or is not in good faith is inherently subjective and open to debate.  Trying to shut down that debate is what Democrats, not Republicans, are trying to do.

This is not up for debate. Biden won fair and square. Republicans are trying to either cheat their way into a second Trump term, or delegitimize the process for some other nefarious reason.

Trump lost. Cope with it. Grow up. Put on your big boy pants and try and focus on the midterms.

For the record, I think Trump should concede and have referred to Biden as "president-elect" multiple times on the Forum just today. 

So I'm unsure what "coping" there is left to do.

There are multiple legal challenges to the vote which are currently unresolved.  The electoral college will not formally elect a president until December 14th.  Media calls and pundits' commentary are irrelevant to our constitutional and legal processes.  There is still a possible (yet highly unlikely) path by which Trump could be elected on a technicality.  These things are not up for debate.  They are facts.

So take your petty, juvenile attacks somewhere else. 

[Ferguson97]

What is or is not in good faith is inherently subjective and open to debate.  Trying to shut down that debate is what Democrats, not Republicans, are trying to do.

This is not up for debate. Biden won fair and square. Republicans are trying to either cheat their way into a second Trump term, or delegitimize the process for some other nefarious reason.

Trump lost. Cope with it. Grow up. Put on your big boy pants and try and focus on the midterms.

For the record, I think Trump should concede and have referred to Biden as "president-elect" multiple times on the Forum just today. 

So I'm unsure what "coping" there is left to do.

There are multiple legal challenges to the vote which are currently unresolved.  The electoral college will not formally elect a president until December 14th.  Media calls and pundits' commentary are irrelevant to our constitutional and legal processes.  There is still a possible (yet highly unlikely) path by which Trump could be elected on a technicality.  These things are not up for debate.  They are facts.

So take your petty, juvenile attacks somewhere else. 

By voting for Trump, you have enabled the decline of our democracy. I hope you're happy with yourself. So take your "grave concerns" somewhere else, Susan Collins.

[Kingpoleon]

This is not the recipe for civil war.

[Non Swing Voter]

52% of Americans don't care what Trump supporters think.

[Yoda]

This is a perfect example of why I don't engage trump supporters. Why would I waste my time with someone who is always debating you in bad faith?