Gitmo suicides
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Author Topic: Gitmo suicides  (Read 3980 times)
The Dowager Mod
texasgurl
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« on: June 10, 2006, 07:55:55 PM »

Three prisoners finaly managed to hang themselves this morning.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060610/ts_nm/security_guantanamo_dc_8
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patrick1
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« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2006, 08:16:55 PM »

Good riddance to bad rubbish.
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Straha
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« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2006, 08:59:40 PM »

About time
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agcatter
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« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2006, 09:38:12 PM »

Excellent news.  They just saved the American taxpayer $150,000 a year.

Now let's take that savings and use it to add rope to the list of provisions issued to each Club Gitmo prisoner.
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ag
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« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2006, 10:14:39 PM »
« Edited: June 10, 2006, 10:17:06 PM by ag »

None of these people have been convicted or even indicted for any crimes.  Many of those, once incarcerated there, have been acknowledged by the US government to be innocent of any antiamerican deed or even thought. Whatever legal or expediency argument that may be advanced to justify keeping them there, does not justify gloating over their misfortune.  There is an old Russian saying (late me again be Reagnesque Smiley in my propensity to quote these): "never bet against <going to > prison or begging".  This is something that everyone should remember: especially, once the great American tradition of subjecting the accused to trial and allowing him to defend his innocence has been abandoned. 
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WalterMitty
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« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2006, 10:18:19 PM »

i hope theyll all kill themselves.
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ag
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« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2006, 10:32:06 PM »


Are you confident you yourself will never find yourself in a similar situation, imprisoned without a trial by some government in some country?  You are a self-confident man, I envy you. When was the last time you re-read Kafka?  I suggest you do it again.
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Frodo
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« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2006, 10:36:16 PM »


Tears are streaming down my cheeks as I read this.  Roll Eyes
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jfern
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« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2006, 10:41:10 PM »


Tears are streaming down my cheeks as I read this.  Roll Eyes

Hopefulyl some day you will be detained indefinitely without charge, since you think it's the right thing to do.
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Jake
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« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2006, 11:22:07 PM »

Gitmo needs to be turned into bombing range.
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Straha
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« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2006, 11:50:56 PM »

Gitmo needs to be turned into bombing range.
No. Killing them would end their suffering so its too humane.
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agcatter
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« Reply #11 on: June 11, 2006, 12:23:27 AM »

Since I'm pretty sure I'm never going to be scooped up off the battlefield while shooting at Americans, yes, I'm confident I'll never be in the situation that those terrorists now find themselves.

What prompted the hangings anyway?  They didn't like the way the fish was prepared?  Were they upset that they lost the Wednesday soccer game?



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jfern
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« Reply #12 on: June 11, 2006, 12:25:56 AM »

I see that the "compassionate conservatives" are out in force.
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agcatter
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« Reply #13 on: June 11, 2006, 12:34:23 AM »

I have no compassion for bloodsucking terrorists nor should I.

However, if you libs want to run on passage of some sort of Al Quida bill of rights, have at it.  I'm sure it's a winner........ in the bay area.
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jfern
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« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2006, 12:35:28 AM »

I have no compassion for bloodsucking terrorists nor should I.

However, if you libs want to run on passage of some sort of Al Quida bill of rights, have at it.  I'm sure it's a winner........ in the bay area.

It's called the Geneva convention, and sane countries follow it.
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agcatter
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« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2006, 12:38:57 AM »

sorry, doesn't apply to terrorists but nice try
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jfern
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« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2006, 12:40:34 AM »

sorry, doesn't apply to terrorists but nice try

We're either at war, or we're not. Pick one. You can't have it both ways.

And who is to say that these people are terrorists? How about we decide that everyone we ever don't like is a terrorist? No, that's total bullsh**t.
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agcatter
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« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2006, 12:52:38 AM »

Yeah, these poor guys were just shopping in the mall when they got picked up. 

BTW, what convention protected the thousands killed on 9-11.

As far as whether or not we're at war or not, I thought the left had decided we weren't.  You make up YOUR mind.

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ag
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« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2006, 01:21:31 AM »
« Edited: June 11, 2006, 01:30:53 AM by ag »

Since I'm pretty sure I'm never going to be scooped up off the battlefield while shooting at Americans, yes, I'm confident I'll never be in the situation that those terrorists now find themselves.

Since a reasonable argument can be made that your position on this issue is not just un-American, but blatantly and treasonously anti-American, I wouldn't be that self-confident, if I were you Smiley. Perhaps, a future government will conclude you are dangerous for some other reason.  Also, don't you think somebody some day could claim he saw you shooting at US soldiers? Doesn't have to be true, you know. Didn't you have any enemies in high school Smiley?

US government has never claimed everyone there was  "scooped off <a> battlefield shooting" at anyone, Americans or Marsians (in fact, it has repeatedly confirmed the opposite) - this is pure and simple your own invention, the thing you choose to believe without ever having been told this by anyone in the know. Since we don't know the identities of those who have committed suicides we don't know why they were where they were. A lot of people who have been released from Guantanamo over the years just happened to be in a wrong place at a wrong time, or have made enemies of some of the US informants, etc. Nonetheless, it took years for the interrogators to conclude they never did anything.

It is the logic of any bureaucratic machine: somebody else arrested the guy because he had some reason I have no clue about; if he stays where he is, there is no harm done to me personally, but if I order his release, and it turns out he was dangerous, my career is over.  Remember the story of a poor Nepalese Hindu man who got arrested filming his neighborhood in Queens (he was planning to go home and wanted to show something to his friends back in Nepal). Accidentally, and without any knowledge of the fact, he filmed the local FBI office, and got booked. Within a month FBI concluded he was no danger whatsoever, but it took over a year to have him released (and it would have never happened, if the FBI agent who dealt with this case didn't take it personally that the higher ups were refusing to approve the release of an innocent man). 

Just think of it: tomorrow you go to Toronto and accidentally take a picture of a Mounties' office. Can you be sure that some over-zealous Canadian official does not decide you are a terrorist? That's why we have trials, you know.
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ag
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« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2006, 01:42:29 AM »
« Edited: June 11, 2006, 01:58:18 AM by ag »

Let me just make it clear. I am not talking at all about the policy of holding these people in Guantanamo - I don't think this topic is about it.  One might reasonably conclude that this has to be done the way it is done (whether I agree with that is irrelevant here). Nor do I want to make a big issue out of the unfortunate event itself - the US will get a lot more  grief because of it than it deserves. Nor do I want to claim that most inmates there are innocent lambs - it is quite likely they aren't.

But what one has to be cognizant of is the fact that the US Constitution established the due process protections for a reason. You might reasonably conclude that US Constitutional protections do not apply here - but that does not eliminate the original logic that led to their introduction in the US. If you "relax" the due process, you are nearly guaranteed to "scoop off", in the unfortunate language used here, a lot more innocent people than you'd normally do. While you might reasonably conclude that you don't have a choice but to detain these people, a minimal courtesy you owe to them is to treat them as innocent until proven guilty, at least in name.  While there might be a justification for holding them in Guantanamo, it is immoral, and I would not shirk from using the words, un-American and even anti-American to gloat about their death.   
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jfern
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« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2006, 03:16:00 AM »

If these guys are so obviously terrorists, then the sane thing to do is to actually try them. If we don't follow the Geneva convention, we're no better than the terrorists. May I remind you that we're on shaky ground here, the World Court has only ever found 1 country guility of terrorism, and it was the United States.
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riceowl
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« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2006, 03:26:13 AM »

I'd hardly say that they had it coming, or that they didn't, but people who kill themselves usually have no one to blame but themselves.
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opebo
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« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2006, 05:33:00 AM »

These were obviously murders, not suicides. 
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agcatter
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« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2006, 09:30:23 AM »

Fern,

The World Court found the US guilty of terrorism?  Considering the acts of terrorism committed by Bin Ladin and the like, the fact that it is the US that has been "the ONLY country found guilty of terrorism" doesn't say much for the credibility of the World Court now does it.

Opedo,

The three were "murdered"?  Is that a fact?  You were there?

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opebo
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« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2006, 09:45:56 AM »

The three were "murdered"?  Is that a fact?  You were there?

It is reasonable to assume, when prisoners are held without access to judicial review or observation by either humanitarian organizations or the press that they are tortured and murdered, agcatter.  How could anyone be there?  Such is not allowed by their captors.

And of course, even if they died by their own hands, this is irrelevant, as the causation was the brutal treatment meted out by their american captors.  If they had been held in humane comfort, as a non-terrorist state, abiding by international law, would have done, they would probably not have killed themselves.  Further, if they had been released after the State failed to charge them with anything, they would not have killed themselves.

If you like your empire, agcattor, and your fascist State, you should not mind when it murders.  That is what it is for!
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