Why have Democrats gotten so bad on civil liberties?
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  Why have Democrats gotten so bad on civil liberties?
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Author Topic: Why have Democrats gotten so bad on civil liberties?  (Read 1656 times)
Bandit3 the Worker
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« on: October 20, 2020, 07:28:44 PM »

I know they got pretty bad on economics, and I know a lot of them began supporting needless wars. But how and why have the Democrats become so bad on civil liberties, especially regarding covid?

I know the Republicans are guilty of this too, but I and many other folks thought that if there was a major crisis during the Trump years, the Trump administration would stand alone in its extreme violations of basic civil liberties. Man, were we ever wrong!

In some countries (maybe a vast majority), the more left-leaning parties are more lenient regarding covid than the more right-leaning parties. Sweden is an example. But I'd say the Democrats certainly are not left-leaning at this point.

Is it just because bigger states are more likely to have Democratic governors now, and more urban areas are a little more wary of contagious diseases? I'm near a big city, but in some ways I'm more rural-oriented, and I never worry anymore about covid from an epidemiological standpoint.

What issues remain that the Democrats haven't gotten bad on?
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Benjamin Frank
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« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2020, 08:09:26 PM »

I know they got pretty bad on economics, and I know a lot of them began supporting needless wars. But how and why have the Democrats become so bad on civil liberties, especially regarding covid?

I know the Republicans are guilty of this too, but I and many other folks thought that if there was a major crisis during the Trump years, the Trump administration would stand alone in its extreme violations of basic civil liberties. Man, were we ever wrong!

In some countries (maybe a vast majority), the more left-leaning parties are more lenient regarding covid than the more right-leaning parties. Sweden is an example. But I'd say the Democrats certainly are not left-leaning at this point.

Is it just because bigger states are more likely to have Democratic governors now, and more urban areas are a little more wary of contagious diseases? I'm near a big city, but in some ways I'm more rural-oriented, and I never worry anymore about covid from an epidemiological standpoint.

What issues remain that the Democrats haven't gotten bad on?

Maybe because Democrats regard living as a civil liberty.
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Bandit3 the Worker
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« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2020, 08:10:33 PM »

Maybe because Democrats regard living as a civil liberty.

Then why are so many people dead?
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Benjamin Frank
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« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2020, 08:12:07 PM »
« Edited: October 20, 2020, 08:25:16 PM by Frank »

Maybe because Democrats regard living as a civil liberty.

Then why are so many people dead?

Because Trump is the President and a lot of stupid people listen to him and they think it's their 'right' to not wear a mask.

Ask Jeffrey Toobin how not wearing an article of clothing worked out for him.  (Though he hasn't been criminally charged, to be sure.)

The idiots who are most opposed to mask wearing tend to be also the most opposed to lock-downs.  If they had a brain, they'd realize it's their not wearing masks that is leading to the re-lock-downs.



Somebody brought up Megyn Kelly to me earlier today and I mentioned that she got into an argument on Fox News with a Muslim professor of religion (Reza Aslan) over him being a Muslim but studying Jesus and Christianity.  So, I found what I thought was the clip of that argument.  It turns out it wasn't Megyn Kelly who had the argument with Reza Aslan.

However, in the clip with Megyn Kelly, they showed a person in a city hall somewhere in Virginia going on about some proposed Mosque in the area and the person saying "You're not going to build that Mosque here, all Muslims are terrorists." (and getting a fair amount of applause in response)  

That is what violations of civil liberties based on irrational fears look like.

Of course, this is somewhat subjective, but a fear of a virus that causes death in approximately 1 in 200 people that get it, is not irrational.
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HagridOfTheDeep
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« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2020, 08:43:34 PM »

lolwut
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2020, 08:49:11 PM »

What about my civil right not to die because some hick is too lazy to put a piece of cloth around his mouth?
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Bandit3 the Worker
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« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2020, 09:08:39 PM »

What about our right to not see our social institutions destroyed just because we wanted to copy a communist country's pandemic response?
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Bandit3 the Worker
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« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2020, 09:10:09 PM »

Also, what ever happened to "flatten the curve"? We've done that.
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Dr. Arch
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« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2020, 09:11:29 PM »

What about our right to not see our social institutions destroyed just because we wanted to copy a communist country's pandemic response?

Go ahead and join Trump's ranks and get sick then. I guarantee that you won't have access to eight doctors on call, 24/7 care, and a cocktail of experimental drugs and treatments.

The rest of us would like to work against unnecessary deaths. Thanks.
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Beet
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« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2020, 09:15:22 PM »

I have no idea. IMO, as a Democrat, the Democrats need to get more creative at fighting the pandemic without relying on blanket mandatory orders that apply to individuals. That being said, the worst of that is well behind us and isn't coming back.
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Pericles
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« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2020, 09:17:17 PM »

"In some countries (maybe a vast majority), the more left-leaning parties are more lenient regarding covid than the more right-leaning parties. " This is absolutely not true, Sweden is the outlier there-not America. Honestly, Bandit is underrated as a steady purveyor of sheer bullsh*t.
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Bandit3 the Worker
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« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2020, 09:19:49 PM »

"In some countries (maybe a vast majority), the more left-leaning parties are more lenient regarding covid than the more right-leaning parties. " This is absolutely not true, Sweden is the outlier there-not America.

Nicaragua is pretty lenient, and it has one of the more left-leaning governments out there.

Someone on another board said British Columbia under the NDP is much more lenient than Ontario under the Conservatives.
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TiltsAreUnderrated
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« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2020, 09:20:19 PM »

As with the authoritarianism of the early stages in the War on Terror, by popular demand.
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T'Chenka
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« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2020, 09:29:58 PM »

The left has an authoritarian wing (lots of SJWs in it), which support "cancel culture" and don't strongly support freedom of speech and expression. I'm not in that wing myself, but it's very prominent. AOC and The Young Turks flirt with the authoritarian left and straddle the line between them and the non-authoritarian Left.
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It’s so Joever
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« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2020, 09:33:25 PM »

Not all of us are ideological zealots who ascribe to the idea of “freedom over all regardless of the circumstances, consequences don’t matter!”
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Bandit3 the Worker
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« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2020, 09:40:36 PM »


When I first started voting, they were much better than they are now.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2020, 09:56:27 PM »

What about our right to not see our social institutions destroyed just because we wanted to copy a communist country's pandemic response?

I never realized Singapore or South Korea were communist.
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It’s so Joever
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« Reply #17 on: October 20, 2020, 11:15:25 PM »

What about our right to not see our social institutions destroyed just because we wanted to copy a communist country's pandemic response?

I never realized Singapore or South Korea were communist.
To be fair, their response was better largely because of culture.
We have way too much of an emphasis on “muh freedom to be an idiot” here and this thread only proves it.
They did other things correctly, but we can’t just ignore the cultural issue the US has.

That being said, Marxist Australia was not a twist I expected in the tenth episode of 2020.
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #18 on: October 20, 2020, 11:19:06 PM »
« Edited: October 21, 2020, 12:52:32 AM by Joe Republic »

Also, what ever happened to "flatten the curve"? We've done that.

wat


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Chunk Yogurt for President!
CELTICEMPIRE
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« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2020, 11:20:24 PM »

Because Bush isn't president.
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It’s so Joever
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« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2020, 12:00:18 AM »

We live in a post-factual society...
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IceAgeComing
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« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2020, 08:50:05 AM »

Someone on another board said British Columbia under the NDP is much more lenient than Ontario under the Conservatives.

Not initially: they NDP government in BC acted shifted and more strictly than the Ontario government initially which helped to flatten the curve and allow for lighter restrictions now while Ontario needs to have more restrictions because they failed to do that.  Its a bit like arguing that the New Zealand government is one of the "more lenient" governments in the world regarding COVID restrictions based on how things are there at the moment which would be ludicrous to argue: their swiftness in locking things down in response to any cases is what allows them to have significantly loosened their restrictions now.

Plus as that graph shows the number of cases in the US is rising again significantly and unlike much of the world the US never really dramatically lowered their case numbers: there's a reason why the US seems to be on a third wave while everyone else is on a second: and with governors in some of the worst hit states decided to eliminate their remaining restrictions that's only going to get worse.  "Flattening the curve" isn't a one-time act: its something that has to be regularly chased until the pandemic is permanently under control.

In relation to Sweden as well: the rhetoric there is changing and while the government hasn't officially announced a change in course: they seem to be on the road of introducing much tighter restrictions and the general consensus is that their approach hasn't worked; especially in comparison to their neighbours (two of the three being Social Democratic-led governments as in Sweden) who followed more aggressive policies.
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TiltsAreUnderrated
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« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2020, 09:54:10 AM »

Besides, the Democratic coalition as of 2020 is no place for anyone who scores low on trust in authority. They've always laughed at us anyway and will be happier cavorting with people who thought that Mitt Romney's 2012 campaign was a height of decency in politics.

This isn't wholly true. Authoritarians are overrepresented in the leadership roles of all parties and the Democratic electorate is probably less skeptical of government in the abstract than it was 20 years ago, although the same is true for the Republicans, for better and for worse. The coronavirus-themed elephant in the room has seen major global policy shifts, most of which don't see very durable to me, but besides that, Democratic policymakers have generally pushed in a more civil libertarian direction in recent years. Whether that translates into a less authoritarian federal government remains to be seen, but the party seems more willing than before to push for expanded voting rights/access, more ambitious policing reforms and drug decriminalisation. There are areas of regression like freedom of speech but I'd wager that activists are pushing for more socially liberal policies, although that isn't necessarily coming from a socially liberal philosophy.

Civil libertarians are probably better off in the Democratic Party than the (federal) Republican one given its leadership's current agitations towards dictatorship, although they don't fit well into either and may be better off remaining independent where that doesn't void their influence in primary elections.
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Sprouts Farmers Market ✘
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« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2020, 10:45:00 AM »

What about my civil right not to die because some hick is too lazy to put a piece of cloth around his mouth?

Missed this on my first look at this thread. We used to call this "saying the quiet part out loud." But over these past five years that has become a misnomer, because the quiet parts are now exactly what we most relish screaming at the top of our lungs for all to hear.

In fairness, there is just such a concentration of hicks in Bergen County that it's not even safe to go outside. Every Bergen County Democrat should stay inside for a few years just to be safe until the virus extinguishes all the hicks.
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Dr. Arch
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« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2020, 11:15:01 AM »

↑Averroes, I get what you're saying, particularly with that last quote on individualistic problem solving, but right now, what we're getting is individualistic problem making, with many Americans choosing not to protect themselves and others in a misguided attempt to demonstrate that historical ruggedness.

Individualized approaches to problem solving as a society will not work if a good chunk of local/nationwide communities/social circles are working to undermine the efforts of the rest of the population. Top that off with the disaster from the present administration, and you have a recipe for a pandemic disaster, where tens of thousands of lives are lost beyond the bare minimum.

I won't go into the minutia of all the other points unless you want to, but I feel that individualism is limited to actually working for the greater whole. What we would be getting is collective destruction right now instead of any problems being solved.
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