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October 19, 2020, 10:04:32 AM
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  French history teacher stabbed, decapitated by Islamic extremist
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Author Topic: French history teacher stabbed, decapitated by Islamic extremist  (Read 983 times)
Chief Justice windjammer
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« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2020, 09:30:17 AM »

I can't wait for the self-proclaimed experts of this forum explaining how France has failed to integrate the arabs and that their children are terrorists in the waiting while:
1) this guy isn't an arab
2) he never was born in France
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The Communist legacy of precincts 48 and 62
Battista Minola 1616
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« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2020, 09:40:39 AM »

I can't wait for the self-proclaimed experts of this forum explaining how France has failed to integrate the arabs and that their children are terrorists in the waiting while:
1) this guy isn't an arab
2) he never was born in France

Since he was actually Chechen, are Chechen immigrants a sizable group in France?

And if so, are they considered a "problematic" group?
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parochial boy
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« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2020, 10:25:17 AM »


You make it seem as that, without any immigration, France would be some sort of European backwater, if not economically at the very least culturally? This is 100% wrong? Let us not forget stuff like the events of 1968, or really the fact that France has a long and very vibrant culture?

And even if it was true, would it actually be bad? Switzerland is (stereotypically at least) a rather small c conservative country, yet it seems to be doing pretty good to me? 

Which is the things, France has a long a succesful and vibrant culture which hit a high point during the trente-glorieuses, but has been unable to move on since. So in the arts, or food, or whatever; alot of it is just trying to reproduce the golden ages and the most innovative stuff in cinema, music, art, comedy, whatever is done by people with a migrant background. In that respect, the point I was making is that yes, immigration has "enriched" France culturally - and has in Switzerland too; because people have always complained about the small minded, conservative mindset here which has only started to move on as people have become more open since the 90s.

Quote
The ship for that scenario has long sailed of course; the "mistake" was done in the 1950s and not now; and hindsight is 20/20, especially 60-70 years from the future; so this is just a thought experiment and an irrelevant question in 2020.

As for the rest, being a muslim, even a relatively religious one is not disqualifying from mainstream (French) society. But unfortunately being religiously muslim does tend to be heavily correlated to other beliefs that are disqualifying from mainstream society. Most muslims do not have said attitudes; but it is a percentage that is a lot larger than it should. Plus of course there is the huge issue of segregation where there are communities where you could easily live while speaking just broken French. There is a reason that media often puts fear about "no-go zones". Even when they are relatively safe, they are still a parallel society with little mixing with the rest of France.

I am actually not sure if France has this kind of area and France does not collect ethnic statatistics anyways, but think of a place like Rinkeby in Sweden, where 90% of the population is of immigrant descent. Though from what I've heard Seine-Sant Denis seems to be the equivalent to a place like that?

This isn't actually that true - there are tonnes of statistics and studies out there that, even if they can't directly survey people about their ethnicity, can infer it. So you have studies that show that a person with a Muslim sounding name would have to send out ~30% more CVs before getting a response as an equally qualified person with a French sounding name; there are studies that show that living in an area with the "wrong" postcode can have the same effect; multiple studies showing how certain quartiers are enclaved in a way that practically cuts them off from society. And just anecdotally, merely appearing in the media with a headscarf is a more or less guaranteed way to create a media shďtstorm and have people sending you death threats. What kind of a message do you think that sends to someone who is Muslim about how accepted they are?

There is, unfortunately, basically no way of arguing against the fact that being Muslim, or even appearing Muslim, is going to leave you facing a certain level of social rejection.

As for the certain communities, thing, well that is urban planning choices about enclaving certain communities, rotting social housing, lack of transport links, lack of social services that contribute to a feeling of rejection. There is nothing new here.

The political will in recent times has been that any problem in say, the cité des 4000 in La Courneuve (a crumbling 60s housing block that is a quite literal island surrounded on all sides by motorways), has been to send in the police. At the same time as cutting social services, firing social workers, closing youth clubs and so on. The results have been predictable, because you ignore an emerging problem, cancel all the possible ways of fixing it when you still can, and you end up sending in the police to do the jobs of social workers after it's too late - made all the worse by the fact that the French police has an issue with racism that has been documented endlessely over the summer.

Like this is the thing, if they are parallel societies it is because they have been built in a way that makes them actually physically separate from the rest of society; have then born the brunt of the retreat of the welafre state and their residents now face an intense level of social stigma just because of which neighbourhood they come from. This isn't just a mistake made in the the 1950s, it is a mistake that is continuing to be made today, because the solutions are too complicated, too expensive and too unpopular.

Even then, Seine-Saint-Denis is a much more complex and mixed community than people think from the outside. It's not just 60s grands ensembles, drug dealers and gangsters like people would think. Allegedly "no go areas" like Saint-Denis or Aubervilliers are currently in the process of gentrifying (Montreuil is basically already there); places like Aulnay-sous-Bois have big Indian, Chinese, East European communities as well as "ethnic" French.
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Alcibiades
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« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2020, 11:06:22 AM »

I don’t want to wade into the inevitable debates about the implications of this attack, I just want to say how sickened I am by this story and that no teacher or educator should ever have to live in fear of the consequences of their academic expression.
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Horus
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« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2020, 11:11:16 AM »

Lefties- Islamist commits murder must be because of economic/social alienation
Conservatives- White Nationalist commits murder must be because of economic/social alienation

So much this.
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Chief Justice windjammer
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« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2020, 12:10:48 PM »

I can't wait for the self-proclaimed experts of this forum explaining how France has failed to integrate the arabs and that their children are terrorists in the waiting while:
1) this guy isn't an arab
2) he never was born in France

Since he was actually Chechen, are Chechen immigrants a sizable group in France?

And if so, are they considered a "problematic" group?
I don't think they are a sizable group. Never heard of them except the Dijon incident where there were some mafia fight between the arabs and the chechen.
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John Dule
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« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2020, 01:27:34 PM »

At this point, saying "The clash of civilizations is a myth" requires the same amount of self-deception as saying "There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe."
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Saruku
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« Reply #32 on: October 17, 2020, 07:48:24 PM »

In an ideal world, Western countries would provide support to those who have been exposed to Islamic fundamentalism, as China has. Instead, they're enabling its spread in a litany of ways, not least of which includes their relationship with their Saudi client. They care more about sowing chaos in the Muslim world, which makes up a large portion of the Global South, than they care about the safety of their citizens.
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John Dule
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« Reply #33 on: October 17, 2020, 08:19:04 PM »

In an ideal world, Western countries would provide support to those who have been exposed to Islamic fundamentalism, as China has.

True. In fact, I've heard that Muslims in China even receive free (re)education!
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jaymichaud
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« Reply #34 on: October 17, 2020, 09:13:02 PM »

In an ideal world, Western countries would provide support to those who have been exposed to Islamic fundamentalism, as China has. Instead, they're enabling its spread in a litany of ways, not least of which includes their relationship with their Saudi client. They care more about sowing chaos in the Muslim world, which makes up a large portion of the Global South, than they care about the safety of their citizens.

Girl bye
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CumbrianLeftie
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« Reply #35 on: October 18, 2020, 09:46:53 AM »

At this point, saying "The clash of civilizations is a myth" requires the same amount of self-deception as saying "There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe."

OK then - how about "the clash of civilisations is *largely* a myth"?

Smiley
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Forumlurker161
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« Reply #36 on: October 18, 2020, 11:31:23 AM »

In an ideal world, Western countries would provide support to those who have been exposed to Islamic fundamentalism, as China has. Instead, they're enabling its spread in a litany of ways, not least of which includes their relationship with their Saudi client. They care more about sowing chaos in the Muslim world, which makes up a large portion of the Global South, than they care about the safety of their citizens.
Yes those exposed to fundamentalism should be supported...but not in the near genocidal way China is doing it.
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Omega21
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« Reply #37 on: October 18, 2020, 09:11:13 PM »
« Edited: October 18, 2020, 09:19:28 PM by Omega21 »

British, and in their words "the only regulated Muslim News outlet in Europw" says:

"Mais non, Monsieur Macron! The problem is secularism, and Islam can be the answer"

https://5pillarsuk.com/2020/10/18/mais-non-monsieur-macron-the-problem-is-secularism-and-islam-can-be-the-answer/

Snip from the article:

It is against this background that I will be chairing an online conference on 31st October 2020, titled ‘The Return of the Islamic World Order’ – because the world is desperately in need of an alternative – and Islam can offer that alternative.

This outlet has its own active Blog section on Huffpost UK

And this is their Editor on Twitter:



Their official twitter is of course active and has 25k Followers as well.


In an ideal world, Western countries would provide support to those who have been exposed to Islamic fundamentalism, as China has. Instead, they're enabling its spread in a litany of ways, not least of which includes their relationship with their Saudi client. They care more about sowing chaos in the Muslim world, which makes up a large portion of the Global South, than they care about the safety of their citizens.

And what the f*** is this?

You're seriously defining actual concentration camps as "support"?

I hope this is a troll account lol
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Saruku
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« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2020, 09:42:04 PM »

I don't believe the mainstream narrative, no. It seems to be a mixture of outright fabrications (many from one Adrian Zenz, a crazy fundie who said he believes he's on God's mission to civilize China, and of the totally impartial Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, and self-proclaimed China expert despite having never been there or learnt any Chinese language) and portraying the conditions of the facilities for the worst offenders (such as those who fought for extremist groups abroad) as representative of the entire project. And if 10+% of the entire population were actually indefinitely detained, there'd be a lot more evidence of it than there actually is; Xinjiang's economy would collapse. Put all of it together, and it smells like Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction.
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Forumlurker161
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« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2020, 10:03:45 PM »

I don't believe the mainstream narrative, no. It seems to be a mixture of outright fabrications (many from one Adrian Zenz, a crazy fundie who said he believes he's on God's mission to civilize China, and of the totally impartial Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, and self-proclaimed China expert despite having never been there or learnt any Chinese language) and portraying the conditions of the facilities for the worst offenders (such as those who fought for extremist groups abroad) as representative of the entire project. And if 10+% of the entire population were actually indefinitely detained, there'd be a lot more evidence of it than there actually is; Xinjiang's economy would collapse. Put all of it together, and it smells like Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction.
You are probably correct in that it’s not *as* bad as Western Media says, but that’s a very f**king low bar.
It’s like someone in court saying “Oh I didn’t murder that many people!”
Even if these were just the extremes, it still is pretty terrible.
That being said, I do appreciate your perspective, it’s refreshing to have a dissenting view here. Hopefully Atlas doesn’t eat you alive lol.
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Mopolis
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« Reply #40 on: Today at 01:48:14 AM »

Well if you want to go down that route - basically yes, French culture is so unimaginitive and conservative that if it hadn't been for imimgration from West and North Africa it would basically be a sad pastiche of what it was in the 1950s. Basically everything interesting and creative that happens in France these days is the product of people with Arab or West African roots.

Obviously there hasn’t been a non-degenerate art movement in the West since Art Nouveau, but at least when I think of “France in the 1950’s” it gives me a definite idea. When I think of French culture today, all I can think of is Cuties.
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Antonio V
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« Reply #41 on: Today at 02:06:00 AM »

I f**king despise both sides of this "issue" so much. You couldn't even wait for the poor guy to be underground before running to your precooked talking points, could you?

RIP to a massive FF who deserved much, much better, and I hope the murderer rots in jail for what he did. This is a human life, not a piece of a grand ideological narrative.
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Annatar
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« Reply #42 on: Today at 04:56:23 AM »

I am not trying to defend this act but I think a point regarding cartoons and free speech in France needs to be raised.

There has been a lot of discussion regarding the images of Muhummad and the right to free speech in France, the fact is there is no universal right to free speech in France, Hervé Lalin was sent to jail for insulting the Jewish people and denying the holocaust. Now one can argue that being sent to prison is an appropriate penalty for insulting Jewish people, but one can't argue that free speech exists universally and equally in France where you are sent to jail for insulting one group, but you can insult and denigrate another, such as Muslims, including insulting the founder of their religion via immoral images.

Now I am not a Muslim, but I can understand why a Muslim in France would feel aggrieved that there is a double standard, insult one group and you go to jail, insult another and it is protected under free speech, and there are people in France willing to defend this hypocritical approach, send people to jail for insulting one group but insulting another is free speech.



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ingemann
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« Reply #43 on: Today at 05:33:48 AM »

I can't wait for the self-proclaimed experts of this forum explaining how France has failed to integrate the arabs and that their children are terrorists in the waiting while:
1) this guy isn't an arab
2) he never was born in France

Since he was actually Chechen, are Chechen immigrants a sizable group in France?

no there's only 35.000 of them in France


Yes, when we talk about the Russian mafia, a major part of it is Chechen in nature.

On a more broader global perspective, Chechens were the backbone of ISIS in Syria and a reason for why ISIS was weaken after the Battle of Kobani was because many of these Chechen veterans died.

In general the average Sunni Arab Islamists are in general unable to hit a nail with a hammer without putting the nail through their own eye. Which is why they have a so incredible high failure rate, the Chechen on the other hand are competent, willing to get their hands dirty, willing to do plan and do the hard work and true believers. That is a incredible dangerous combination when it's mixed with such as toxic religion like Islam and depraved ideology like Islamism.
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Samof94
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« Reply #44 on: Today at 06:54:16 AM »

Well if you want to go down that route - basically yes, French culture is so unimaginitive and conservative that if it hadn't been for imimgration from West and North Africa it would basically be a sad pastiche of what it was in the 1950s. Basically everything interesting and creative that happens in France these days is the product of people with Arab or West African roots.

Obviously there hasn’t been a non-degenerate art movement in the West since Art Nouveau, but at least when I think of “France in the 1950’s” it gives me a definite idea. When I think of French culture today, all I can think of is Cuties.
Where does Belgium, Switzerland, and Canada fit here?
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afleitch
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« Reply #45 on: Today at 07:11:18 AM »

A gentle reminder to keep it civil. Less conspiratorialism please.
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