There are 6.5 ex-Catholics in the US for every Catholic convert

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

I also found this:

About three-in-ten (29%) Latino Protestants belong to traditional Pentecostal denominations. An additional 38% describe themselves as Pentecostal or charismatic Christians even though they do not belong to a Pentecostal denomination. Among Hispanic Catholics, 52% say they are either charismatic or Pentecostal Catholics.

What exactly is a Pentecostal Catholic?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_charismatic_renewal

I've been to a couple of these types of Masses and, while I don't prefer them, they don't feel quite as weird as they sound.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

I also found this:

About three-in-ten (29%) Latino Protestants belong to traditional Pentecostal denominations. An additional 38% describe themselves as Pentecostal or charismatic Christians even though they do not belong to a Pentecostal denomination. Among Hispanic Catholics, 52% say they are either charismatic or Pentecostal Catholics.

What exactly is a Pentecostal Catholic?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_charismatic_renewal

I've been to a couple of these types of Masses and, while I don't prefer them, they don't feel quite as weird as they sound.

Interesting. I did not know there was a charismatic movement in the Catholic Church. It does not sound like something that would appeal to me honestly.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I also found this:

About three-in-ten (29%) Latino Protestants belong to traditional Pentecostal denominations. An additional 38% describe themselves as Pentecostal or charismatic Christians even though they do not belong to a Pentecostal denomination. Among Hispanic Catholics, 52% say they are either charismatic or Pentecostal Catholics.

What exactly is a Pentecostal Catholic?

Amy Coney Barrett

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

I also found this:

About three-in-ten (29%) Latino Protestants belong to traditional Pentecostal denominations. An additional 38% describe themselves as Pentecostal or charismatic Christians even though they do not belong to a Pentecostal denomination. Among Hispanic Catholics, 52% say they are either charismatic or Pentecostal Catholics.

What exactly is a Pentecostal Catholic?

Amy Coney Barrett

Too bad.

[afleitch]

PSOL, from my perspective it seems that Americans are so used to the idea of 'church shopping' and bouncing from faith to faith, and public affiliation that you're struggling with the idea that people might be leaving faith and not looking for another.

These are always unstable categories ripe for something to come if one doesn’t have a strong worldview to back up their current religious identity.

?

The “nones” in the US are susceptible to religious conversion proven that they are young and willing enough and don’t have tools to resist conversion if they haven’t “made up their mind”

No they aren't.

https://www.aei.org/research-products/report/the-decline-of-religion-in-american-family-life/

'Few Americans who are currently religiously unaffiliated report that they are looking for a religion. Only 5 percent of unaffiliated Americans say they are now looking for a religion that would be right for them. Ninety-five percent say they are not doing this.'

Why are you finding this difficult to grasp that people are making a conscious choice to leave religion and aren't looking for one. The US is a 10-20 years at most behind Western Europe and is simply playing catchup.

If nones were 'susceptible to conversion' they wouldn't be making year on year gains.

[Wikipedia delenda est]

At least one, if not two, entire generations of US Catholics gave up on even attempting catechesis. And, of course, the sex abuse scandals have been disastrous.

On a lesser note, Catholicism is a very rationalist and philosophical faith by Christian standards, which is not something which is as appreciated in the United States these days. It's not surprising that the biggest gainers among Christians have been highly emotion-based groups like Pentecostals. There is a real, albeit shallow, power to their approach.

Is it really though? Believing in transubstantiation would seem to require a suspension of disbelief and denial of basic human reason. I've always been puzzled by the fact that (some) Protestants take the metaphorical side on the Eucharist while Catholics believe it literally, when usually it's the Protestants who are the biblical fundamentalists.

[RI]

At least one, if not two, entire generations of US Catholics gave up on even attempting catechesis. And, of course, the sex abuse scandals have been disastrous.

On a lesser note, Catholicism is a very rationalist and philosophical faith by Christian standards, which is not something which is as appreciated in the United States these days. It's not surprising that the biggest gainers among Christians have been highly emotion-based groups like Pentecostals. There is a real, albeit shallow, power to their approach.

Is it really though? Believing in transubstantiation would seem to require a suspension of disbelief and denial of basic human reason. I've always been puzzled by the fact that (some) Protestants take the metaphorical side on the Eucharist while Catholics believe it literally, when usually it's the Protestants who are the biblical fundamentalists.

I don't mean "rationalist" in a modern materialist sort of way. Perhaps a better way of putting it is that Catholicism is highly systematized based on extensive use of deductive and inductive reasoning. It heavily applies rationality and philosophical precepts to the faith in a way most other forms of Christianity do not. Think of something like Aquinas's Summa Theologica: it's structured something akin to premise A and premise B imply conclusion C, which can be objected to by arguments D and E, and these objections can be rebutted by argument F. Catholicism is built up in a way not too dissimilar from a legal corpus juris.

Your example of the Real Presence is actually a prime example of this. Catholicism explains the Real Presence through, as stated by the above poster, a variation of Aristotelian metaphysics. This has been commonly cited by Eastern Christians as a prime example of the over-rationality of Catholicism, whereas the East embraces mystery and mysticism which does not require a rational explanation for how God operates.

Some high-church Protestant denominations started this way as well (e.g. Lutheranism), but many have gradually pulled back over the centuries due to their inherently more democratic nature. Note that strong support for a metaphorical or symbolic interpretation of the Eucharist is less common among these groups than among low-church evangelicals, Pietists, Holiness groups, etc. who are unabashedly emotion-based and/or praxis-focused while being less intellectually and historically focused. If you tried talking about Aristotelian metaphysics, accidents vs. substance, ousia vs. hypostasis, etc. to most evangelicals, they'd probably think you were being baptized by the Holy Spirit.

[Samof94]

This reflects the contrast in the intelligentsia's narratives of religious trends and actual demographic changes in religious affiliation. For example, Buddhism and other Eastern religions were considered the future of religion from the 1960s onwards due to their increasing influence among Western intellectuals but in numbers, actual Western converts to Buddhism or Hinduism was far exceeded by Asian converts to Christianity in the past half century. Same with Catholicism which seems to be picking off an unusually high number of intellectuals from Protestant (evangelical or mainline) or agnostic backgrounds but far exceeded in absolute numbers by working-class converts to Evangelicalism-especially if one counts the Global South.

Look at Korea as exhibit a on this.

[PSOL]

Maybe I should refine my question from before. What non-Christian religion is making serious waves among the working class in America?

[PSOL]

Maybe I should refine my question from before. What non-Christian religion is making serious waves among the working class in America?

Bumping this because I seriously want to know. I’ll even take anecdotal evidence.

[Donerail]

Maybe I should refine my question from before. What non-Christian religion is making serious waves among the working class in America?

Agnosticism.

[afleitch]

Maybe I should refine my question from before. What non-Christian religion is making serious waves among the working class in America?

Agnosticism.

He doesn't like that answer.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Maybe I should refine my question from before. What non-Christian religion is making serious waves among the working class in America?

Agnosticism.

He doesn't like that answer.

But it's the correct answer.

[PSOL]

Maybe I should refine my question from before. What non-Christian religion is making serious waves among the working class in America?

Agnosticism.

He doesn't like that answer.

It is not a useful answer, yes.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

Maybe I should refine my question from before. What non-Christian religion is making serious waves among the working class in America?

Agnosticism.

He doesn't like that answer.

It is not a useful answer, yes.

It's no one's fault if no non-Christian religion is "making serious waves" among the American working class.

[Donerail]

Maybe I should refine my question from before. What non-Christian religion is making serious waves among the working class in America?

Agnosticism.

He doesn't like that answer.

It is not a useful answer, yes.

What sort of "useful" answer are you looking for? There's no significant trend of working-class Americans converting to Sikhism or Judaism or Wicca. There is a trend of people drifting away from their churches.

[PSOL]

Maybe I should refine my question from before. What non-Christian religion is making serious waves among the working class in America?

Agnosticism.

He doesn't like that answer.

It is not a useful answer, yes.

What sort of "useful" answer are you looking for? There's no significant trend of working-class Americans converting to Sikhism or Judaism or Wicca. There is a trend of people drifting away from their churches.

Is there nothing out there yet?

[Donerail]

What sort of "useful" answer are you looking for? There's no significant trend of working-class Americans converting to Sikhism or Judaism or Wicca. There is a trend of people drifting away from their churches.

Is there nothing out there yet?

There's Qanon.

[PSOL]

What sort of "useful" answer are you looking for? There's no significant trend of working-class Americans converting to Sikhism or Judaism or Wicca. There is a trend of people drifting away from their churches.

Is there nothing out there yet?

There's Qanon.

Heh, no I mean an “established” religion widely viewed as one, specifically not tied to the Abrahamic tradition.

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

What sort of "useful" answer are you looking for? There's no significant trend of working-class Americans converting to Sikhism or Judaism or Wicca. There is a trend of people drifting away from their churches.

Is there nothing out there yet?

There's Qanon.

Heh, no I mean an “established” religion widely viewed as one, specifically not tied to the Abrahamic tradition.

But, if I can ask, why is an atheist like you so fixated on this topic? That's what I find quite bizarre about this exchange.

[PSOL]

What sort of "useful" answer are you looking for? There's no significant trend of working-class Americans converting to Sikhism or Judaism or Wicca. There is a trend of people drifting away from their churches.

Is there nothing out there yet?

There's Qanon.

Heh, no I mean an “established” religion widely viewed as one, specifically not tied to the Abrahamic tradition.

But, if I can ask, why is an atheist like you so fixated on this topic? That's what I find quite bizarre about this exchange.

Why would one care? This board’s purpose is to ask all questions on R&P under the sun after all.

[Donerail]

Is there nothing out there yet?

There's Qanon.

Heh, no I mean an “established” religion widely viewed as one, specifically not tied to the Abrahamic tradition.

There's not one. Not sure what the "yet" is supposed to imply — no reason to assume there has to be one. Lots of people have left their faith and aren't searching for another.

[PSOL]

Is there nothing out there yet?

There's Qanon.

Heh, no I mean an “established” religion widely viewed as one, specifically not tied to the Abrahamic tradition.

There's not one. Not sure what the "yet" is supposed to imply — no reason to assume there has to be one. Lots of people have left their faith and aren't searching for another.

Well I’m asking now what religious traditions outside the mainstream Abrahamic canon is attracting working class converts. Wicca? Baha’i? Possibly even Neopaganism?

[Donerail]

There's not one. Not sure what the "yet" is supposed to imply — no reason to assume there has to be one. Lots of people have left their faith and aren't searching for another.

Well I’m asking now what religious traditions outside the mainstream Abrahamic canon is attracting working class converts. Wicca? Baha’i? Possibly even Neopaganism?

The only significant trend is people abandoning their churches and not gravitating toward anything at all. I'm not sure why this is not a satisfactory answer for you!

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

What sort of "useful" answer are you looking for? There's no significant trend of working-class Americans converting to Sikhism or Judaism or Wicca. There is a trend of people drifting away from their churches.

Is there nothing out there yet?

There's Qanon.

Heh, no I mean an “established” religion widely viewed as one, specifically not tied to the Abrahamic tradition.

But, if I can ask, why is an atheist like you so fixated on this topic? That's what I find quite bizarre about this exchange.

Why would one care? This board’s purpose is to ask all questions on R&P under the sun after all.

What I meant is that I find weird that an atheist would find the answer "the only significant thread is towards non-religiosity" (which is the most correct one) unsatisfactory.