Happy one federal holiday names after someone worse than Trump day!

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

Yep it's this wretched day of slavery and genocide again.

The one good thing Covid has done is shut down any Columbus Day parades. Let's hope they don't ever return. And thank God this will be the first Columbus Day in decades without that abomination of a Columbus statue standing at the Minnesota Capitol!

[Big Abraham]

Columbus Day is stupid, but it is a myth that he is responsible for genocide or is the progenitor of the transatlantic slave trade

[Trump Is A Maoist]

Canadian Thanksgiving Monday = Columbus Day this year. Interesting.

[AndyHogan14]

I have always found the hand wringing about Columbus Day (or Indigenous Peoples Day) to somewhat amusing...it has always been just another Monday. Being that it is not a state holiday here, I wouldn't even know it was coming if it weren't for people online complaining about it.

[Anni di ghiaccio]

Columbus Day is stupid, but it is a myth that he is responsible for genocide or is the progenitor of the transatlantic slave trade

I think there's a lot of evidence he was responsible for both.

[Former President tack50]

Thank you for the thread on my country's national holiday!

Tbh I wonder what Spanish BRTD would think about it. I assume still on the #NothingToCelebrate crowd?

[Bootes Void]

Christopher Columbus is an explorer who discovered the Americas. In Canada we have Thanksgiving instead of Columbus day

[Trump Is A Maoist]

Christopher Columbus didn't follow a concept, he followed a king.

[kaoras]

Thank you for the thread on my country's national holiday!

Tbh I wonder what Spanish BRTD would think about it. I assume still on the #NothingToCelebrate crowd?

This always amazed me. Literally, every single alternative for a Spain national holiday I can think of seems more appropriate than this date.

[rob in cal]

Also, is a discussion about having Thanksgiving still being a holiday an idea whose time has come?

[The Righteous Tip of the Abundance Spear]

Columbus Day is stupid, but it is a myth that he is responsible for genocide or is the progenitor of the transatlantic slave trade

I think there's a lot of evidence he was responsible for both.

Genocide is the deliberate killing of an ethnic group. Columbus enslaved many natives, but the high death toll as a result of his arrival was due to disease, not an intentional policy of extermination.

The transatlantic slave trade was started by the Portuguese twenty years after Columbus' death.

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

Columbus Day is stupid, but it is a myth that he is responsible for genocide or is the progenitor of the transatlantic slave trade

I think there's a lot of evidence he was responsible for both.

Genocide is the deliberate killing of an ethnic group. Columbus enslaved many natives, but the high death toll as a result of his arrival was due to disease, not an intentional policy of extermination.

The transatlantic slave trade was started by the Portuguese twenty years after Columbus' death.

Wrong! He engaged in Leopold II/Pol Pot-esque actions against the Taíno.

[Kingpoleon]

Genocide is the deliberate killing of an ethnic group. Columbus enslaved many natives, but the high death toll as a result of his arrival was due to disease, not an intentional policy of extermination.

The transatlantic slave trade was started by the Portuguese twenty years after Columbus' death.

Christopher Columbus was a brute as Governor, even by the standards of the Spanish monarchy. It’s odd to accuse him of even worse things than being blatantly corrupt and very free with executions, considering those are hardly hallmark virtues. Even by the standards of 15th century Europe!

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Also, is a discussion about having Thanksgiving still being a holiday an idea whose time has come?

No, it very much is not.

The argument against Thanksgiving being a holiday is the same one as the argument against July 4th being a holiday.

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

Thanksgiving long predates the US anyway, it was a celebration of the final harvest in colonial times. It's a pretty neutral holiday in terms of what it recognizes.

[The Righteous Tip of the Abundance Spear]

Columbus Day is stupid, but it is a myth that he is responsible for genocide or is the progenitor of the transatlantic slave trade

I think there's a lot of evidence he was responsible for both.

Genocide is the deliberate killing of an ethnic group. Columbus enslaved many natives, but the high death toll as a result of his arrival was due to disease, not an intentional policy of extermination.

The transatlantic slave trade was started by the Portuguese twenty years after Columbus' death.

Wrong! He engaged in Leopold II/Pol Pot-esque actions against the Taíno.

Unless I'm mistaken, Leopold wasn't attempting to ethnically cleanse the Congo... was he?

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

https://twitter.com/HKrassenstein/status/1315706778328465409?s=19
https://twitter.com/HKrassenstein/status/1315706959459385345?s=19

[SWE]

Columbus Day is stupid, but it is a myth that he is responsible for genocide or is the progenitor of the transatlantic slave trade

I think there's a lot of evidence he was responsible for both.

Genocide is the deliberate killing of an ethnic group. Columbus enslaved many natives, but the high death toll as a result of his arrival was due to disease, not an intentional policy of extermination.

The transatlantic slave trade was started by the Portuguese twenty years after Columbus' death.

Nope! The first evidence of European disease arriving at Hispaniola, the island Columbus was governor of, was 1518, after Columbus had died. By that point, Hispaniola's Taino population was already on the brink of extinction. On the other hand, Peru's Guaraní people were ravaged by recurrent Small Pox outbreaks from Jesuit missions, but these Jesuits did not institute the same brutal policies of Columbus, including encomedia and the enslavement and forced relocation that came with it, and the Guaranís saw their population increase. Blaming the death and destruction that was inflicted on indigenous people primarily on disease is not a realistic hypothesis.

Source

[The Righteous Tip of the Abundance Spear]

Columbus Day is stupid, but it is a myth that he is responsible for genocide or is the progenitor of the transatlantic slave trade

I think there's a lot of evidence he was responsible for both.

Genocide is the deliberate killing of an ethnic group. Columbus enslaved many natives, but the high death toll as a result of his arrival was due to disease, not an intentional policy of extermination.

The transatlantic slave trade was started by the Portuguese twenty years after Columbus' death.

Nope! The first evidence of European disease arriving at Hispaniola, the island Columbus was governor of, was 1518, after Columbus had died. By that point, Hispaniola's Taino population was already on the brink of extinction. On the other hand, Peru's Guaraní people were ravaged by recurrent Small Pox outbreaks from Jesuit missions, but these Jesuits did not institute the same brutal policies of Columbus, including encomedia and the enslavement and forced relocation that came with it, and the Guaranís saw their population increase. Blaming the death and destruction that was inflicted on indigenous people primarily on disease is not a realistic hypothesis.

Source

"Historians have determined that the massive decline was due more to infectious disease outbreaks than any warfare or direct attacks. By 1507, their numbers had shrunk to 60,000. Scholars believe that epidemic disease (smallpox, influenza, measles, and typhus) was an overwhelming cause of the population decline of the indigenous people, and also attributed a "large number of Taíno deaths...to the continuing bondage systems" that existed."

This is backed up by numerous infectious disease history scholars and scholars of Spanish colonization alike. Now obviously, the forced labor that the Spanish imposed upon the Taino was a major part of this, but even given that fact, that does not make the policy "genocide," which is a distinct classification of crime against humanity.

[Former President tack50]

Thank you for the thread on my country's national holiday!

Tbh I wonder what Spanish BRTD would think about it. I assume still on the #NothingToCelebrate crowd?

This always amazed me. Literally, every single alternative for a Spain national holiday I can think of seems more appropriate than this date.

.

I mean I suppose it could come off as imperialist (because well, it is). The official government justification (last time it was voted and edited, in 1987) goes as follows, but is very obviously commemorating the former Spanish empire:

The chosen date, October 12, symbolizes the historical anniversary in which Spain, about to conclude a process of State construction based on our cultural and political plurality, and the integration of the kingdoms of Spain into the same monarchy, begins a period of linguistic and cultural projection beyond European limits

As for alternatives, it was apparently picked as a compromise to conservatives. However I think you overrate the amount of dates that can be chosen instead, as in my view there is exactly one: the 6th of December (commemorating the day the constitution was ratified and which was the original leftist pick back in the 70s and 80s).

I literally cannot think of any other date that would be appropiate. The 14th of April (2nd Republic established) is obviously a no-go to anyone right of center. Nobody really reivindicates the legacy of the 1876-1923 regime either.

You could go with the 18th or the 30th of September (commemorating the 1868 revolution) but no one really reivindicates that regime much and conservatives would not like it either as it led (eventually) to the short lived 1st Republic.

Going back even further the next date that would get close to unanimous support would be the 2nd of May (uprising against Napoleon) but that is already Madrid's regional holiday and the events were really concentrated there so probably not appropiate for a national holiday.

Going even more further back, any date linked to the Succession war (1701-1715) would be a no-go to the Catalans for obvious reasons.

Even further back any date you pick will need to be an imperialist holiday. There is the Battle of Lepanto (7th of October). But it isn't really linked to the Spanish mainland directly. You could also pick the 2nd of January (Granada conquered & muslims expelled), which would also be controversial. Or the 19th of October (Catholic Kings married) which I guess would be a nice compromise pick, albeit heavily on the pro-monarchy side.

No prior pick is really possible as Spain didn't really exist until the late 1400s.

So yeah, the 6th of December is basically the only good alternative. I would personally not be opposed to changing the national day to the 6th of December, but I'd keep the 12th of October as a national holiday; or if it does get dropped it should be replaced by another holiday (of which I can't think of many good historical/secular alternatives)

Worth noting that before democracy came, the chosen national day was the 18th of July the day the Spanish civil war began with a fascist botched coup. Or as the regime put it: "date on which Spain unanimously rose up in defense of its faith, against communist tyranny and against the covert dismemberment of its land". So baby steps I suppose

[falling apart like the ashes of American flags]

Thank you for the thread on my country's national holiday!

Tbh I wonder what Spanish BRTD would think about it. I assume still on the #NothingToCelebrate crowd?

Is that a thing in Spain? If so wouldn't it be #NadaQueCelebrar?

[Former President tack50]

Thank you for the thread on my country's national holiday!

Tbh I wonder what Spanish BRTD would think about it. I assume still on the #NothingToCelebrate crowd?

Is that a thing in Spain? If so wouldn't it be #NadaQueCelebrar?

I mean obviously it is in Spanish so yeah, #NadaQueCelebrar I translated it to the American audience here.

And yeah it is most definitely a thing. Basically it seems to be a thing among 2 kinds of people:

1) Some elements of the far left. Podemos is most certainly split on the issue, with almost no tweets or public statements on the national holiday today one way or the other. Another example is that Colau (mayor of Barcelona), while rejecting calls to take down the big Columbus statue in the city center, did say she wanted to add a disclamer and that it should be critiqued.

This is a somewhat divisive issue among the Spanish far left, but it is definitely far from unheard of.

2) Catalan/Basque nationalists. Unlike in the previous case, they do not hold back at all here, probably since unlike the Spanish far left, they don't feel attached to the concept of Spain at all.

If you go to the ERC, CUP, BNG or Bildu twitter accounts you will most certainly find a ton of content about how the 12th of October is a holiday that celebrates genocide and what not. They of course also tie it into their own fights for independence and/or againsg the monarchy as you might expect

The most overt take this time probably came from ERC's youth organization:

https://twitter.com/JoventRepublica/status/1315600457985863684

On #October 12 we have nothing to celebrate.
The original peoples of America were not discovered: they were invaded and colonized!

Pic: Fight against Fascism and Colonialism. October 12: Nothing to celebrate.

It was also quite common for Catalan/Basque secessionist mayors and other public officials to go to work on the 12th of October despite it being an official holiday in order to make a stronger case against it.

[Badger]

Columbus Day is stupid, but it is a myth that he is responsible for genocide or is the progenitor of the transatlantic slave trade

I suppose there's a fine line between genocide and mere mass murder. He's arguably guilty of the latter.

And he may not have single-handedly developed the transatlantic slave trade, but he was its earliest progenitor, or at least earliest active participant.

[Santander]

Actually one and three fifths if you include MLK day.

[Samof94]

Columbus Day is stupid, but it is a myth that he is responsible for genocide or is the progenitor of the transatlantic slave trade

I think there's a lot of evidence he was responsible for both.

Genocide is the deliberate killing of an ethnic group. Columbus enslaved many natives, but the high death toll as a result of his arrival was due to disease, not an intentional policy of extermination.

The transatlantic slave trade was started by the Portuguese twenty years after Columbus' death.

Wrong! He engaged in Leopold II/Pol Pot-esque actions against the Taíno.

That’s what the sources in Hispaniola say. He killed people with elaborate torture methods.