The impossibility of another Great Awakening
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Author Topic: The impossibility of another Great Awakening  (Read 617 times)
PSOL
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« on: October 10, 2020, 12:52:35 PM »

I have always been of the mind that it is possible for Christianity to rebound itself in power and adherence in the United States due to it being the dominant religion. However, in recent times I’ve become more skeptical of this fact as modern Christian denominations in the US are either stagnating or heading into irreversible decline. I think the days Christianity can be seen as countercultural, or even an escape from the alienation provided under capitalism, is over at this point for a wide swath of people who see American denominations as corrupt or off.

Evangelicals are seen as too strict and connected to the political apparatus of the Republican Party and the Catholic Church will be associated with sexual scandals for quite some time. We’ve seen mainline denominations bleed membership, and Mormons are too “off” for a significant amount of Christians or conservatives with dietary and clothing rules. The changing views on Gender, nationality, racism, class relations, sexism, abortion, and other topics are too much change for Christianity as a whole to recover from. The increased atomization of society and the lack of national patrons willing to propagate it now is also a huge thing. Even still the future is murky.

If there will be another awakening of sorts, it will be a fractured one at best with different religious traditions competing against one another. Maybe a synthesis of sorts occurs with Christian denominations outside the United States? Maybe we will see similar Abrahamic religions like Baha’is or Muslims garner a significant amount of converts to put them on national spotlight? With Islam, while I’m skeptical of it being relevant outside of diaspora of Islamic nations, the fact that it survived around 19 years of scrutiny and, with the Islamic population in the US being quite diverse; form a community and sense of solidarity among one another that cuts through nationality, language, ethnicity, and in a few scant liberal places even sexuality. The only thing barring it is rules on dress and diet, which is a big thing for many considering the importance of either shellfish or alcohol in American society. Also, some more liberal denominations like the Quakers and UUniversalists aren’t exactly big on converts in the US.

I honestly doubt Eastern spiritual traditions be apart of this in any large measure, mainly due to the evisceration of such things among immigrants and their children. Unless there’s a serious nationalist push in the mother nation to shill for it, I doubt it revives anywhere but the surrounding diaspora. Wicca and neopaganism is something I’m also skeptical about getting big. Wicca has a congregation (Coven?) problem in that a lot of their conversions now are through word of text, making it hard to organize. Furthermore, the Book of Shadows used by some is...less defensible than with other texts whom had time to develop before an age came about where collecting information was widely available. Neopaganism also suffers from a similar but different problem in that apologia is kind of skewed when it’s all Christian sources. Also the problem with the Volkish stuff and several sects barring people not from the “source” background.

I highly doubt such transient categories like “spiritual but not affiliated” or “none” survive in this ever changing world, especially in the United States. Either Atheism starts being more accepted by a wider populace to be, which itself depends on the material conditions of the individual, or we get more weird with personality cults that are basically religions (QAnon). 

Maybe the people frequenting this board have another perspective or more information that would be vital in this topic.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2020, 03:19:12 PM »

if we do get another one, I think it will begin with an inward look as evangelical churches reevaluate whether they have sold their spiritual heritage in pursuit of political power and thus become modern day Sadducees.  In any case, all prior Great Awakenings in the U.S. began with an inward examination of what the church was doing wrong and then the result of that flowed out from the church into society at large. So, I think another Great Awakening is quite possible, and if we do, Trump may well be responsible for it, just not in a way he would like, as I think it will likely be in response to churches evaluating where they went wrong in backing Trump and the Republican Party.
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« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2020, 01:52:59 AM »

I disagree, but interesting analysis nonetheless.  I do agree with you in the short term, however.

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Evangelicals are seen as too strict and connected to the political apparatus of the Republican Party

This is a major problem for Evangelicals.  Evangelicalism can shake off that image, but it won't happen overnight.  As America becomes less religious, the Republican Party is going to have to change to reflect that.  And as time goes on, Americans hear less and less about Evangelicals on the news as the younger generation of Evangelicals is decidedly less political.  At the same time, Evangelical Christianity becomes increasingly associated with immigrants living in big cities.  Eventually, "Evangelical" loses most of its political connotations.

Quote
Catholic Church will be associated with sexual scandals for quite some time.

One thing that will be interesting to see is if the Vatican goes in a more liberal or more conservative direction.  If it deicides to be more liberal, Eastern Orthodoxy will gain at the expense of Catholicism.  Beyond that, I don't know how Catholicism will fare in the future.

Quote
With Islam, while I’m skeptical of it being relevant outside of diaspora of Islamic nations, the fact that it survived around 19 years of scrutiny and, with the Islamic population in the US being quite diverse; form a community and sense of solidarity among one another that cuts through nationality, language, ethnicity, and in a few scant liberal places even sexuality. The only thing barring it is rules on dress and diet, which is a big thing for many considering the importance of either shellfish or alcohol in American society.

Islam is an interesting case, because IMO much of the conventional wisdom on the future of religion is wrong when it comes to Islam.  I actually think that Islam will experience a significant decline this century.  There has been an increase in apostasy among Muslims in recent years, and surveys in several Islamic countries show that large percentages of the population in those countries don't actually believe in Islam (or any religion for that matter).  I think Islam will grow in the United States, mostly due to immigration and high birthrates, but not by much.

Quote
I honestly doubt Eastern spiritual traditions be apart of this in any large measure, mainly due to the evisceration of such things among immigrants and their children. Unless there’s a serious nationalist push in the mother nation to shill for it, I doubt it revives anywhere but the surrounding diaspora.


I agree completely here.

Quote
Wicca and neopaganism is something I’m also skeptical about getting big. Wicca has a congregation (Coven?) problem in that a lot of their conversions now are through word of text, making it hard to organize. Furthermore, the Book of Shadows used by some is...less defensible than with other texts whom had time to develop before an age came about where collecting information was widely available. Neopaganism also suffers from a similar but different problem in that apologia is kind of skewed when it’s all Christian sources. Also the problem with the Volkish stuff and several sects barring people not from the “source” background.

Neopaganism would have a hard time gaining a significant foothold in the US due to American history.  Americans are a mix of a lot of different ethnic backgrounds, its not like Norway where people could theoretically unite behind the Norse pantheon.  One way I could see neopaganism being the majority in a country is if it was imposed by an ultra-nationalist government.  But even that seems highly unlikely.
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PSOL
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« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2020, 03:27:09 PM »

if we do get another one, I think it will begin with an inward look as evangelical churches reevaluate whether they have sold their spiritual heritage in pursuit of political power and thus become modern day Sadducees.  In any case, all prior Great Awakenings in the U.S. began with an inward examination of what the church was doing wrong and then the result of that flowed out from the church into society at large. So, I think another Great Awakening is quite possible, and if we do, Trump may well be responsible for it, just not in a way he would like, as I think it will likely be in response to churches evaluating where they went wrong in backing Trump and the Republican Party.
The problem here is that I honestly doubt there is serious self-reflection going on to save Christianity in the United States. Inform me otherwise, but it seems that reformists are getting kicked out of the church for disapproving of Church lines on Gay Marriage. They also remain areas of mostly formal worship, dress shirt and shoes and all that, which is alienating to the laid back youth.

I disagree, but interesting analysis nonetheless.  I do agree with you in the short term, however.

Quote
Evangelicals are seen as too strict and connected to the political apparatus of the Republican Party

This is a major problem for Evangelicals.  Evangelicalism can shake off that image, but it won't happen overnight.  As America becomes less religious, the Republican Party is going to have to change to reflect that.  And as time goes on, Americans hear less and less about Evangelicals on the news as the younger generation of Evangelicals is decidedly less political.  At the same time, Evangelical Christianity becomes increasingly associated with immigrants living in big cities.  Eventually, "Evangelical" loses most of its political connotations.

I’m doubting a lot of this is true. While the Republican Party will go through major change in the coming years and young evangelicals are more politically “moderate”, the combination in American discourse of Christian=RW politics will remain. The activism against abortion and close connections with the Republican Party are too ingrained to just wither away. It requires a public break from being useful idiots to liberal economics and for evangelical organizations to start being apolitical or at minimum seem bipartisan, a la the Catholic Church.

Also, if there is a Christian revival amongst the various diaspora here, I doubt it will be in its totality an Evangelical phenomena and not the religious affiliations of local churches.

Quote
Quote
Catholic Church will be associated with sexual scandals for quite some time.

One thing that will be interesting to see is if the Vatican goes in a more liberal or more conservative direction.  If it deicides to be more liberal, Eastern Orthodoxy will gain at the expense of Catholicism.  Beyond that, I don't know how Catholicism will fare in the future.
I don’t believe there’s an observable Catholic—>Orthodox pipeline in the US but ok

Quote
Quote
With Islam, while I’m skeptical of it being relevant outside of diaspora of Islamic nations, the fact that it survived around 19 years of scrutiny and, with the Islamic population in the US being quite diverse; form a community and sense of solidarity among one another that cuts through nationality, language, ethnicity, and in a few scant liberal places even sexuality. The only thing barring it is rules on dress and diet, which is a big thing for many considering the importance of either shellfish or alcohol in American society.

Islam is an interesting case, because IMO much of the conventional wisdom on the future of religion is wrong when it comes to Islam.  I actually think that Islam will experience a significant decline this century.  There has been an increase in apostasy among Muslims in recent years, and surveys in several Islamic countries show that large percentages of the population in those countries don't actually believe in Islam (or any religion for that matter).  I think Islam will grow in the United States, mostly due to immigration and high birthrates, but not by much.
If we are talking about the international situation, I’d be more inclined to agree, but not in the US where this question is located. The Islamic community in the US is growing from immigration and having slightly more than 2+ kids, but in the future that could change with converts, as unlike most other religions there’s a stable amount of people coming in and out.

This question is assuming that there’s going to be a large material vaccumn for these established churches to rebuild themselves.

Quote
Quote
I honestly doubt Eastern spiritual traditions be apart of this in any large measure, mainly due to the evisceration of such things among immigrants and their children. Unless there’s a serious nationalist push in the mother nation to shill for it, I doubt it revives anywhere but the surrounding diaspora.


I agree completely here.
It’s seriously saddening, and I’m an Atheist!

Quote
Quote
Wicca and neopaganism is something I’m also skeptical about getting big. Wicca has a congregation (Coven?) problem in that a lot of their conversions now are through word of text, making it hard to organize. Furthermore, the Book of Shadows used by some is...less defensible than with other texts whom had time to develop before an age came about where collecting information was widely available. Neopaganism also suffers from a similar but different problem in that apologia is kind of skewed when it’s all Christian sources. Also the problem with the Volkish stuff and several sects barring people not from the “source” background.

Neopaganism would have a hard time gaining a significant foothold in the US due to American history.  Americans are a mix of a lot of different ethnic backgrounds, its not like Norway where people could theoretically unite behind the Norse pantheon.  One way I could see neopaganism being the majority in a country is if it was imposed by an ultra-nationalist government.  But even that seems highly unlikely.
Yep, how it could work in some place as diverse as the US is gonna be a mystery.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
Ernest
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« Reply #4 on: October 12, 2020, 09:10:20 PM »

if we do get another one, I think it will begin with an inward look as evangelical churches reevaluate whether they have sold their spiritual heritage in pursuit of political power and thus become modern day Sadducees.  In any case, all prior Great Awakenings in the U.S. began with an inward examination of what the church was doing wrong and then the result of that flowed out from the church into society at large. So, I think another Great Awakening is quite possible, and if we do, Trump may well be responsible for it, just not in a way he would like, as I think it will likely be in response to churches evaluating where they went wrong in backing Trump and the Republican Party.
The problem here is that I honestly doubt there is serious self-reflection going on to save Christianity in the United States. Inform me otherwise, but it seems that reformists are getting kicked out of the church for disapproving of Church lines on Gay Marriage. They also remain areas of mostly formal worship, dress shirt and shoes and all that, which is alienating to the laid back youth..

O ye of little faith!

First and foremost, while I do think that if a Great Awakening happens soon it will lead to the church becoming less political, you'll note I said almost nothing about its theology. Furthermore, the First Great Awakening was a reaction to the stuffy formal style of worship, so a Great Awakening need not be a return to the past. Indeed, it certainly won't be, since people don't need an Awakening to return to the past. None of the prior Great Awakenings involved getting people coming back to the church of their forefathers, but set the church on a new path that reinvigorated it. Now, if a return to the past is what you think a Great Awakening will entail, I agree that won't happen, as it never did that before.

Moreover, a Great Awakening need not make use of existing denominations, so if it were to happen, it wouldn't necessarily see a restrengthening of existing mainline or fundamentalist denominations.
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Samof94
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« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2020, 07:08:07 AM »

Paganism doesn’t work with nationalism in a country where nationalism is tied to evangelical Christianity.
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PSOL
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« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2020, 08:28:18 AM »

Paganism doesn’t work with nationalism in a country where nationalism is tied to evangelical Christianity.
Of course, if the white people ever start viewing this nation as permanently lost...
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Samof94
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« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2020, 12:08:14 PM »

Paganism doesn’t work with nationalism in a country where nationalism is tied to evangelical Christianity.
Of course, if the white people ever start viewing this nation as permanently lost...
Other then Neo Nazis, I can think of any political group  who actually practices Paganism.
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PSOL
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« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2020, 12:10:47 PM »

Paganism doesn’t work with nationalism in a country where nationalism is tied to evangelical Christianity.
Of course, if the white people ever start viewing this nation as permanently lost...
Other then Neo Nazis, I can think of any political group  who actually practices Paganism.
None of this disproves what I’m saying
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Del Tachi
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« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2020, 02:20:26 PM »

Balderdash!  There are plenty of "culturally Catholic" Latinos to be influenced by a mid-century charismatic/Pentecostal movement, and there's evidence it may already be happening Cheesy 
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PSOL
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« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2020, 03:29:05 PM »

Balderdash!  There are plenty of "culturally Catholic" Latinos to be influenced by a mid-century charismatic/Pentecostal movement, and there's evidence it may already be happening Cheesy 
The seeds have apparently been sown, but they aren’t exactly relevant or a sizable power yet to really make a difference.
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Cassandra
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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2020, 06:42:21 PM »

I would argue that the successive Great Awakenings have transformed American Christianity into a religion less and less similar to European Christianity. See for example the centering of the ego in prosperity gospel, mormonism, etc. I suspect the next "Great Awakening" will solidify this break, and that many of the more thoughtful, self-described American Christians may view the next great religious upheaval as sacrilegious or essentially pagan.
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