COVID-19 Megathread 6: Return of the Omicron
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
March 28, 2024, 08:44:56 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  U.S. General Discussion (Moderators: The Dowager Mod, Chancellor Tanterterg)
  COVID-19 Megathread 6: Return of the Omicron
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 178 179 180 181 182 [183] 184 185 186 187 188 ... 456
Poll
Question: ?
#1
Yes
 
#2
No
 
Show Pie Chart
Partisan results

Total Voters: 115

Author Topic: COVID-19 Megathread 6: Return of the Omicron  (Read 526218 times)
Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas
Ray Goldfield
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 7,605


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4550 on: June 22, 2021, 04:31:46 PM »

We HAVE a vaccine that neutralizes any variants — the mRNA vaccines are still wildly effective against them. And our case numbers are going down already, at a rapid pace.

I understand that you’re concerned about the Delta variant and the virus in general. But try to relax: the data we have continues to show that vaccinated people are almost totally safe.

Yep. A vaccine going from 99% effective to 90% effective, which seems like a rough estimate of what we're seeing in other countries, isn't great but is certainly enough to mostly neutralize a public health emergency.
Logged
soundchaser
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,482


Political Matrix
E: -6.45, S: -6.26

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4551 on: June 22, 2021, 04:36:35 PM »

The most comparable vaccine — the annual flu vaccine — ranges from 40% to 60% effective depending on the year. Let’s not undersell just how good the Pfizer and Moderna COVID vaccines are.
Logged
President Punxsutawney Phil
TimTurner
Atlas Politician
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 41,124
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4552 on: June 22, 2021, 04:38:12 PM »
« Edited: June 22, 2021, 04:43:16 PM by Southern Deputy Speaker Punxsutawney Phil »

What we could do is very very easy: implement a national vaccine mandate.

It is absurd that we put up with economic shutdowns for months and a mask mandate for over a year, but we are unwilling to mandate something that will literally just inconvenience people for a few hours but solve the problem completely.
I would be all for a nationwide vaccine mandate, but at least judging by its rulings on other cases regarding COVID restrictions, the Supreme Court would strike down a vaccine mandate in a 5-4 ruling.
Not only would it not be in line with SCOTUS rulings, merely trying to implement it would be a shot in the arm (unintentional pun hahaha) to anti-vax movements and harm the vaccination efforts.

The Supreme Court has already ruled that vaccine mandates are constitutional.
I would agree that this would have to come from congressional legislation and not a mere executive order to be assured of SC approval.

And how would a vaccine mandate harm vaccination efforts?  It's not like mask mandates led to fewer people wearing masks.  A lot of people were only wearing them because they had to, and took them off as soon as mandates were lifted.  I'm pretty sure the same thing would happen for most vaccine hesitant people.
Well that is news to me.

Anyway, the big problem with a nationwide vaccinate mandate is that from a PR position it pushes those who may have skepticism but aren't sure or are very undecided and puts a propogranda tool in the eyes of anti-vax activists to have additional wiggle room to make persuasive arguments to these people. And what would be the way this would be enforced? I admit that it's definitely possible it would be a net health benefit for the public, the greatest good for the greatest number, but people are still getting vaccinated even without that sort of mandate as it is, or at least, with "soft mandates" (people getting the shot as a requirement to check in for work, etc.) that are looking likely, at this point in time, to do the same job with more steps, together with massive PR campaigns. I don't think at the moment it's wise to risk radicalizing more people and mint the anti-vax movement more followers when it's not at all clear that it's even necessary to get the job done. The vast majority of people still plan to get vaccinated even if the government isn't requiring it from every citizen.
Logged
GeorgiaModerate
Moderators
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 32,347


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4553 on: June 22, 2021, 04:55:12 PM »

What we could do is very very easy: implement a national vaccine mandate.

It is absurd that we put up with economic shutdowns for months and a mask mandate for over a year, but we are unwilling to mandate something that will literally just inconvenience people for a few hours but solve the problem completely.
I would be all for a nationwide vaccine mandate, but at least judging by its rulings on other cases regarding COVID restrictions, the Supreme Court would strike down a vaccine mandate in a 5-4 ruling.
Not only would it not be in line with SCOTUS rulings, merely trying to implement it would be a shot in the arm (unintentional pun hahaha) to anti-vax movements and harm the vaccination efforts.

The Supreme Court has already ruled that vaccine mandates are constitutional.
I would agree that this would have to come from congressional legislation and not a mere executive order to be assured of SC approval.

And how would a vaccine mandate harm vaccination efforts?  It's not like mask mandates led to fewer people wearing masks.  A lot of people were only wearing them because they had to, and took them off as soon as mandates were lifted.  I'm pretty sure the same thing would happen for most vaccine hesitant people.
Well that is news to me.

Anyway, the big problem with a nationwide vaccinate mandate is that from a PR position it pushes those who may have skepticism but aren't sure or are very undecided and puts a propogranda tool in the eyes of anti-vax activists to have additional wiggle room to make persuasive arguments to these people. And what would be the way this would be enforced? I admit that it's definitely possible it would be a net health benefit for the public, the greatest good for the greatest number, but people are still getting vaccinated even without that sort of mandate as it is, or at least, with "soft mandates" (people getting the shot as a requirement to check in for work, etc.) that are looking likely, at this point in time, to do the same job with more steps, together with massive PR campaigns. I don't think at the moment it's wise to risk radicalizing more people and mint the anti-vax movement more followers when it's not at all clear that it's even necessary to get the job done. The vast majority of people still plan to get vaccinated even if the government isn't requiring it from every citizen.

Jacobson v. Massachusetts, 1905.
Logged
Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin
Runeghost
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,366


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4554 on: June 22, 2021, 06:26:55 PM »

Logged
GP270watch
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,557


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4555 on: June 22, 2021, 08:15:24 PM »

We HAVE a vaccine that neutralizes any variants — the mRNA vaccines are still wildly effective against them. And our case numbers are going down already, at a rapid pace.

I understand that you’re concerned about the Delta variant and the virus in general. But try to relax: the data we have continues to show that vaccinated people are almost totally safe.

Yep. A vaccine going from 99% effective to 90% effective, which seems like a rough estimate of what we're seeing in other countries, isn't great but is certainly enough to mostly neutralize a public health emergency.

 Yes we need to get more people vaccinated because that will limit the number of people who get any version of Covid-19 and stop it from spreading and developing new variants. One of the problems with this pandemic is the terrible contact tracing and lockdowns most countries have done. The public does not have the tolerance for full lockdowns and their limited patience for them shouldn't be squandered for an area that doesn't need it. Lockdowns should be for hotspots and clusters and limited based on data.

 There was a case in Florida where an entire IT department and some staff that worked with them got Covid-19, 2 people died and number of others were really sick and hospitalized. The lone uninfected employee from this cluster who had interacted with all the infected was a 23 year old who was fully vaccinated and never contracted Covid-19. Delta and other variants might continue to be harmful if we leave a significant portion of the population unvaccinated.

 
Logged
Dr. Arch
Arch
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,452
Puerto Rico


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4556 on: June 22, 2021, 08:22:14 PM »

The updated numbers for COVID-19 in the U.S. are in for 6/22 per: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/

I'm keeping track of these updates daily and updating at the end of the day, whenever all states finish reporting for that day.

ΔW Change: Comparisons of Weekly Day-to-day Growth or Decline of COVID-19 Spread/Deaths.
  • IE: Comparing the numbers to the same day of last week, are we flattening the curve enough?

Σ Increase: A day's contribution to overall percentage growth of COVID-19 cases/deaths.
  • IE:What's the overall change in the total?

Brackets []: These represent the total change for the day, including backlogged reports, if any.
  • These numbers are inflated relative to the actual reports for the day, so they are not used to calculate the comparative percentage shifts.

Older Numbers (Hidden in spoiler mode to make the post more compact)
Spoiler alert! Click Show to show the content.



6/13: <Sunday>
  • Cases: 34,321,093 (+5,226 | ΔW Change: ↓18.45% | Σ Increase: ↑0.02%)
  • Deaths: 615,053 (+16 | ΔW Change: ↓90.36% | Σ Increase: ↑0.00%)

6/14: <M>
  • Cases: 34,334,299 (+7,310 [+13,206] | ΔW Change: ↓40.49% | Σ Increase: ↑0.04%)
  • Deaths: 615,263 (+106 [+210] | ΔW Change: ↓68.36% | Σ Increase: ↑0.03%)

6/15: <T>
  • Cases: 34,351,363 (+11,884 [+17,064] | ΔW Change: ↓12.24% | Σ Increase: ↑0.05%)
  • Deaths: 615,703 (+341 [+440] | ΔW Change: ↓2.85% | Σ Increase: ↑0.07%)

6/16: <W>
  • Cases: 34,365,327 (+12,757 [+13,964] | ΔW Change: ↓10.17% | Σ Increase: ↑0.04%)
  • Deaths: 616,141 (+352 [+438] | ΔW Change: ↓20.36% | Σ Increase: ↑0.07%)

6/17: <Þ>
  • Cases: 34,376,793 (+11,466 | ΔW Change: ↑7.06% | Σ Increase: ↑0.03%)
  • Deaths: 616,423 (+282 | ΔW Change: ↓31.55% | Σ Increase: ↑0.05%)

6/18: <F>
  • Cases: 34,393,269 (+13,389 [+16,476] | ΔW Change: ↓15.94% | Σ Increase: ↑0.05%)
  • Deaths: 616,920 (+393 [+497] | ΔW Change: ↓6.65% | Σ Increase: ↑0.08%)

6/19: <S>
  • Cases: 34,401,712 (+8,443 | ΔW Change: ↓11.93% | Σ Increase: ↑0.02%)
  • Deaths: 617,083 (+163 | ΔW Change: ↓46.56% | Σ Increase: ↑0.03%)

6/20 (Holiday): <Sunday>
  • Cases: 34,406,001 (+4,289 | ΔW Change: ↓17.93% | Σ Increase: ↑0.01%)
  • Deaths: 617,166 (+83 | ΔW Change: ↑418.75% | Σ Increase: ↑0.01%)

6/21 (Yesterday): <M>
  • Cases: 34,419,838 (+6,609 [+13,837] | ΔW Change: ↓9.59% | Σ Increase: ↑0.04%)
  • Deaths: 617,463 (+121 [+297] | ΔW Change: ↑14.15% | Σ Increase: ↑0.05%)

6/22 (Today): <T>
  • Cases: 34,433,696 (+9,898 [+13,858] | ΔW Change: ↓16.71% | Σ Increase: ↑0.04%)
  • Deaths: 617,864 (+335 [+401] | ΔW Change: ↓1.76% | Σ Increase: ↑0.06%)
Logged
Vaccinated Russian Bear
Russian Bear
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,108
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4557 on: June 23, 2021, 05:39:50 AM »

Delta variant is more likely to put a young adult in the hospital, though the chances are still small. If you're vaccinated your chances of that are still very small. This is just what I'm hearing from the doctors on TV.

Uhh....

This information about the Delta variant makes me start favoring the reimplementation of preventative lockdowns.

These stats make no sense to me.  They appear to be showing that the overall CFR of the delta variant is only about 0.1%.   That alone seems very unlikely to me, not to mention several other weird anomalies in this table.

I can't see with strange with that stat, because the un-vaccinated tend to be WAY younger and healthier than those who are vaccinated. With other words, there is a strong selection and self-selection bias.

I don't know about Delta, but here is "old" numbers (as for 1st Dec 2020) for Americans.

https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/covid-pandemic-mortality-risk-estimator




CFR for an average 50-years old American (given a positive test) was ~0.3% (0.2% for female and 0.4% for male). For an Average American. I assume that people with underling medical condition are much more likely to be vaccinated. That is the CFR for a ~healthy un-vaccinated 50-years old is likely to be under 0.1% for "normal" variant. Probably somewhat higher for Delta.



Logged
Calthrina950
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,937
United States


P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4558 on: June 23, 2021, 09:08:55 AM »

Earlier this morning, I was sent a video by my father-whose vaccine skepticism I've chronicled here-which is from OANN, the right-wing cable network that has set itself up as an "alternative" to Fox News. I wish I could post the video here so that posters on here could see it, but I don't think there's a way to do that, as the video was sent to me as an attachment. He got it from a friend of his.

Basically, the video claims that there are "serious" doubts about the effectiveness of the coronavirus vaccine, and that it has more "severe" side effects than all other vaccines. It lists the number of miscarriages, deaths, hospitalizations, etc. of people who've had the vaccine, and talks about "concerns" regarding the vaccine in Britain and Israel.

Given that this is OANN, pretty much all that it says is either misinformation or biased, and as has been noted, the number of "vaccine deaths" pale in comparison to the number of people who've died from coronavirus. So he's gone from justifying his skepticism on the basis of an article in AARP to now relying upon this cable network. And yet he says I buy into false media narratives....
Logged
SnowLabrador
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,577
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4559 on: June 23, 2021, 02:44:41 PM »

My prediction is that there'll be another wave thanks to the deplorables refusing to get vaccinated. This one will be the worst one.
Logged
It’s so Joever
Forumlurker161
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,943


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4560 on: June 23, 2021, 04:03:14 PM »

The Delta Plus variant appears to have taken some of the properties of the Beta variant. If it spreads, we are f**ked.
Logged
Roll Roons
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,981
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4561 on: June 23, 2021, 04:09:49 PM »

My prediction is that there'll be another wave thanks to the deplorables refusing to get vaccinated. This one will be the worst one.

You’re delusional.
Logged
MATTROSE94
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,803
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -5.29, S: -6.43

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4562 on: June 23, 2021, 04:36:25 PM »

My prediction is that there'll be another wave thanks to the deplorables refusing to get vaccinated. This one will be the worst one.
I agree. It is possible that we end up with 1 million COVID cases per day in a few weeks and that the variant mutates to become 100% impervious to vaccines, thus putting us at square one again.
Logged
GeorgiaModerate
Moderators
Atlas Superstar
*****
Posts: 32,347


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4563 on: June 23, 2021, 04:39:20 PM »

My prediction is that there'll be another wave thanks to the deplorables refusing to get vaccinated. This one will be the worst one.
I agree. It is possible that we end up with 1 million COVID cases per day in a few weeks and that the variant mutates to become 100% impervious to vaccines, thus putting us at square one again.

It's also possible that I'll win the lottery next week.

*plonk*
Logged
Bandit3 the Worker
Populist3
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 7,951


Political Matrix
E: -10.00, S: -9.92

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4564 on: June 23, 2021, 05:00:53 PM »

My prediction is that there'll be another wave thanks to the deplorables refusing to get vaccinated. This one will be the worst one.

Not. My. Problem. Anymore.

I got both doses of Pfizer months ago, and if they issue new lockdowns and mask mandates, they're just going to have to cram it. What was the point of getting vaccinated if we can't go right back to normal life right away?
Logged
soundchaser
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,482


Political Matrix
E: -6.45, S: -6.26

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4565 on: June 23, 2021, 05:01:23 PM »

My prediction is that there'll be another wave thanks to the deplorables refusing to get vaccinated. This one will be the worst one.
I agree. It is possible that we end up with 1 million COVID cases per day in a few weeks and that the variant mutates to become 100% impervious to vaccines, thus putting us at square one again.

We don't have every state's numbers for today yet, but it looks like we're down several thousand cases compare to last Wednesday. Your pessimism is unwarranted.
Logged
MATTROSE94
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,803
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -5.29, S: -6.43

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4566 on: June 23, 2021, 05:03:53 PM »

My prediction is that there'll be another wave thanks to the deplorables refusing to get vaccinated. This one will be the worst one.

Not. My. Problem. Anymore.

I got both doses of Pfizer months ago, and if they issue new lockdowns and mask mandates, they're just going to have to cram it. What was the point of getting vaccinated if we can't go right back to normal life right away?
Lockdowns are required to become vaccinated infected who will be vulnerable to breakthrough infections that will begin in a few weeks.
Logged
Bandit3 the Worker
Populist3
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 7,951


Political Matrix
E: -10.00, S: -9.92

Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4567 on: June 23, 2021, 05:04:00 PM »

It looks like the only state that's not doing that great right now is Missouri. But the rest of the Midwest is doing great.
Logged
It’s so Joever
Forumlurker161
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,943


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4568 on: June 23, 2021, 05:36:18 PM »

My prediction is that there'll be another wave thanks to the deplorables refusing to get vaccinated. This one will be the worst one.
I agree. It is possible that we end up with 1 million COVID cases per day in a few weeks and that the variant mutates to become 100% impervious to vaccines, thus putting us at square one again.
Okay you are a bad faith troll.
Logged
It’s so Joever
Forumlurker161
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,943


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4569 on: June 23, 2021, 05:47:01 PM »
« Edited: June 23, 2021, 05:56:23 PM by Forumlurker »

Also sorry about my early doom post today. That was an emotional reaction that does not stand up to the facts.

Delta Plus is concerning, and it is very possible it is vaccine resistant, but that’s not established.
The K417N mutation is only one of many potential mutations in Beta which lead to reduced immunity. Other prominent ones include N501Y and E484K.
E484K is not in the common (sad I am calling it this) delta variant, and I can’t find anything on whether it exist in the delta plus, suggesting not enough evidence has been found to say definitely.
What is in both is E484Q, which could potentially act similar to E484K.

For all we know, the addition of this one mutation may not be enough to tip the scales much at all.

If this holds, I personally as guessing more likely that Deta Plus will look more like Beta, but far more transmissible. This would be bad for sure, and many formerly protected people would be less protected and potentially for a shorter time, but it wouldn’t completely wipe out our progress.
It is pretty rare for one mutation to suddenly wipe out all immunity. Let’s hope the pattern continues.

(And no I am not qualified to say what will or won’t happen, this is just speculation from someone who doesn’t have any experience or education in the field, aka a complete nonexpert)

Logged
SnowLabrador
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,577
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4570 on: June 23, 2021, 05:57:09 PM »

My prediction is that there'll be another wave thanks to the deplorables refusing to get vaccinated. This one will be the worst one.

Not. My. Problem. Anymore.

I got both doses of Pfizer months ago, and if they issue new lockdowns and mask mandates, they're just going to have to cram it. What was the point of getting vaccinated if we can't go right back to normal life right away?

I'm also fully vaccinated with Pfizer, but if enough people continue to get the virus, we'll have a mutation that evades vaccines completely. Trumpers are going to let this happen just to own the libs.
Logged
MATTROSE94
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,803
Ukraine


Political Matrix
E: -5.29, S: -6.43

P P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4571 on: June 23, 2021, 06:00:42 PM »

My prediction is that there'll be another wave thanks to the deplorables refusing to get vaccinated. This one will be the worst one.

Not. My. Problem. Anymore.

I got both doses of Pfizer months ago, and if they issue new lockdowns and mask mandates, they're just going to have to cram it. What was the point of getting vaccinated if we can't go right back to normal life right away?

I'm also fully vaccinated with Pfizer, but if enough people continue to get the virus, we'll have a mutation that evades vaccines completely. Trumpers are going to let this happen just to own the libs.
I agree 100%. That is why I still triple mask and wear goggles in public even though I am fully vaccinated. The only solution is to reimplement strict lockdowns in the US that last for a year or two and implement a permanent mask mandate. Both the lockdowns and mask mandates should be enforced by a mandatory prison sentence for anyone who violates it.
Logged
pbrower2a
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 26,841
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4572 on: June 23, 2021, 06:08:44 PM »

My prediction is that there'll be another wave thanks to the deplorables refusing to get vaccinated. This one will be the worst one.

You’re delusional.

Speak for yourself.

"If I am to err, then let it be on the side of human life" -- George Herbert Walker Bush.

Big Business is making it easy to get inoculated against COVID-19. When a right-wing company like Wal*Mart makes it easy to get inoculated, maybe it is wise to get inoculated when liberals have been in a rush to get themselves inoculated.

Logged
It’s so Joever
Forumlurker161
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,943


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4573 on: June 23, 2021, 06:53:06 PM »

My prediction is that there'll be another wave thanks to the deplorables refusing to get vaccinated. This one will be the worst one.

Not. My. Problem. Anymore.

I got both doses of Pfizer months ago, and if they issue new lockdowns and mask mandates, they're just going to have to cram it. What was the point of getting vaccinated if we can't go right back to normal life right away?

I'm also fully vaccinated with Pfizer, but if enough people continue to get the virus, we'll have a mutation that evades vaccines completely. Trumpers are going to let this happen just to own the libs.
Again, are you aware that one mutation alone typically doesn’t make immunity disappear.
It’s more likely to be a progressive decline as more mutations add on.
And for all the talk about the anti vaxxers, they are not going to be the source of new mutations.
Really, the anti vaxxers may not be so terrible long term. The vaccines those morons won’t use will overtime be distributed to lesser developed countries with far lower vaccination rates, and those needles will go a lot further there than here.

If things do worsen, it probably won’t be from the dumb anti-vaxxers.
Instead, it will be millions of working class citizens in developing nations who will unfortunately be the first carriers of new variants. As we see huge rises of Covid in Southern/Eastern/Central Africa, that region alarms me the most.

We are in a much better position than last year, and the use of MRNA vaccines means much quicker booster shot production. Perhaps if we streamline approval for emergency use, we could get these out quickly.
Additionally, production is slowly increasing as was expected. We are not out of the woods yet, and Covid will still be a news topic in five years, but we are making progress.

If you really are that scared of getting sick, go get a third shot ffs. I wouldn’t recommend it (and it could even be dangerous) unless you are literally a cancer patient who has discussed it with your doctor, but I have heard of people doing that in those rare situations.

Logged
Horus
Sheliak5
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,550
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4574 on: June 23, 2021, 07:00:32 PM »

My prediction is that there'll be another wave thanks to the deplorables refusing to get vaccinated. This one will be the worst one.

Not. My. Problem. Anymore.

I got both doses of Pfizer months ago, and if they issue new lockdowns and mask mandates, they're just going to have to cram it. What was the point of getting vaccinated if we can't go right back to normal life right away?

I'm also fully vaccinated with Pfizer, but if enough people continue to get the virus, we'll have a mutation that evades vaccines completely. Trumpers are going to let this happen just to own the libs.
I agree 100%. That is why I still triple mask and wear goggles in public even though I am fully vaccinated. The only solution is to reimplement strict lockdowns in the US that last for a year or two and implement a permanent mask mandate. Both the lockdowns and mask mandates should be enforced by a mandatory prison sentence for anyone who violates it.

Lmao
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 178 179 180 181 182 [183] 184 185 186 187 188 ... 456  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.108 seconds with 11 queries.