I wish cigarette smokers, marijuana smokers, and vapers didn’t blame each other for intrusive laws

[Adam Griffin]

At any rate, I can't help it that I am a consistent social libertarian as it pertains to individual behavior; that I believe in the fact that people should be able to do what they want with their own bodies regardless of the opinion of the masses. I think it might just be a by-product of Democrats who came of age during the Bush Administration, but who knows. I'm also very sensitive to those who look down their noses at people who engage in those behaviors, because...

Many of the authoritarians who have since popped up in this thread would - with just one or two additional chemical imbalances in their brains! - also be advocating to restrict a woman's right to choose or my right to be with other men. It's hypocritical and repugnant, and the same attitudes that lead to "banning smoking/vaping/drug use" are parallel to those - whether it be in the spirit of "saving people from bad mistakes", morally elevating themselves above others or just a general desire to micromanage others' lives.

[The Righteous Tip of the Abundance Spear]

Of course they do, but it's not your choice to tell others what to do with their own bodies - nor that of any of the other authoritarians (whether they're masquerading as "freedom lovers" or not) ranting in this thread as predicted.

I’m not claiming it is, and you and everyone else have the right to smoke. But I make no apologies for wishing to see tobacco use reduced to the lowest level possible through ‘soft’ policies. The massive reduction in smoking over the past 50 years is one of Western’s society's greatest success stories in that period and a fantastic example of the power of an active, engaged government to help solve social ills.

I haven't touched a cigarette in ages (ditto for anything marijuana-related), but I am still going to stand up for individual liberties on this front and not look down my nose at people who choose to use them.

Accepting that others have the right to do something doesn't mean that you forfeit the right to criticize them for it. Just like how in this thread, you looked down your nose at people who didn't abuse substances in high school. That's your prerogative.

[Alcibiades]

I don’t think that government should stand by as millions of lives are thrown down the gutter. Many of the smokers I know are good, nice, interesting people and I would hate to see their lives cut short early. I also happen to be of the opinion that high sales taxes, restricting certain forms of advertising and public health campaigns are not serious violations of individual liberty.

[Hollywood]

Literally have never seen this anywhere in the real world or online, so I just assume you're spending time in weird niches.

Also, don't mind the Authoritarians of Atlas who will inevitably respond! Most well-educated teenage and 20-something virgins who don't know how to have fun have never experimented with any of these substances.

There are ways to have fun that don’t include tobacco and marijuana.

Yeah, for people who have lots of money to do other things and no mental health issues. For the rest of America, though...

That’s what big tobacco wants you to think so that they can continue to murder vulnerable Americans with their product.

Yeah I think putting those chemicals in cigarettes is a form of murder.  They put one chemical in it that targets a compound in your body that resists addictive behaviors, and causes you to want to overeat, drink, and smoke more cigarettes.  I think calling it a gateway drug is also an apt description.  Younger people that smoke cigarettes will use other substances to counteract the nicotine the same way some non-smokers will want to bum a cigarettes after drinking at a club.  Cigarettes make you tense and alcohol loosens you up. 

[Adam Griffin]

Literally have never seen this anywhere in the real world or online, so I just assume you're spending time in weird niches.

Also, don't mind the Authoritarians of Atlas who will inevitably respond! Most well-educated teenage and 20-something virgins who don't know how to have fun have never experimented with any of these substances.

There are ways to have fun that don’t include tobacco and marijuana.

Yeah, for people who have lots of money to do other things and no mental health issues. For the rest of America, though...

That’s what big tobacco wants you to think so that they can continue to murder vulnerable Americans with their product.

If you don't understand why vast swathes of people smoke besides long-banned tobacco company ads, I don't know what I could possibly say to you on the matter that'd be worth my time.

If you don’t understand how tobacco companies have and continue to systematically exploit people of all demographics by preying on vulnerabilities present throughout the population, I don’t know what I could possibly say to you on the matter that’d be worth my time.

Of course they do, but it's not your choice to tell others what to do with their own bodies - nor that of any of the other authoritarians (whether they're masquerading as "freedom lovers" or not) ranting in this thread as predicted.

If you want universal healthcare and a strong social safety net, what other people do with their bodies does influence society as a whole, especially with regards to drug use.
There should be strong increases in tobacco taxes, we should rival Australia in tobacco tax rates and vapes should only be allowed with a prescription.

Good segue, because for both of these above posts, it's important to note that the life expectancy gains over the past several decades in the US from reduced nicotine consumption still doesn't cancel out the overall discrepancy between US life expectancy and OECD life expectancy (largely due to most other countries having genuine universal and/or low-cost access to healthcare).

Advocate for getting everybody insured first, then we'll talk. I'm not at all opposed to higher taxes for nicotine (or other substances) to curb use and to offset healthcare costs, but that still leaves people with a choice - and one that doesn't look down upon them in the process.

[Santander]

Vape pens completely changed the equation for me.  You can take a few puffs out of the pen, and receive enough nicotine to feed your itch. So I agree with those people that want to eliminate cigarettes.  There’s just no reason to allow people to smoke cigarettes when there’s a demonstrably better option without the numerous health hazards associated with cigarettes.  The only studies showing really significant issues with vape is the ones that put rats in a gas chamber for an hour.   Duh!!! 

The only issue I see with vapes is that underage morons try to smoke a whole pen, or start putting other substances not meant for the cartridge. 

They're too convenient. Being essentially odorless, you can take puffs almost anywhere, any time. Most people end up more addicted than they were when they smoked, although it is still less harmful.

[Adam Griffin]

Of course they do, but it's not your choice to tell others what to do with their own bodies - nor that of any of the other authoritarians (whether they're masquerading as "freedom lovers" or not) ranting in this thread as predicted.

I’m not claiming it is, and you and everyone else have the right to smoke. But I make no apologies for wishing to see tobacco use reduced to the lowest level possible through ‘soft’ policies. The massive reduction in smoking over the past 50 years is one of Western’s society's greatest success stories in that period and a fantastic example of the power of an active, engaged government to help solve social ills.

I haven't touched a cigarette in ages (ditto for anything marijuana-related), but I am still going to stand up for individual liberties on this front and not look down my nose at people who choose to use them.

Accepting that others have the right to do something doesn't mean that you forfeit the right to criticize them for it. Just like how in this thread, you looked down your nose at people who didn't abuse substances in high school. That's your prerogative.

*tut*

I looked down at people on this wealthy forum who have never used the substances and yet want to tell everybody else they can't, either. And I did that prematurely, before any of y'all wanted to come in here and tell people what to do with their bodies, so I mean...not even an attack really.

It's one thing for you to say you don't want to breathe in secondhand smoke in your own home. Quite another to root for the failure of those who choose to do so.

[Hollywood]

Of course they do, but it's not your choice to tell others what to do with their own bodies - nor that of any of the other authoritarians (whether they're masquerading as "freedom lovers" or not) ranting in this thread as predicted.

I’m not claiming it is, and you and everyone else have the right to smoke. But I make no apologies for wishing to see tobacco use reduced to the lowest level possible through ‘soft’ policies. The massive reduction in smoking over the past 50 years is one of Western’s society's greatest success stories in that period and a fantastic example of the power of an active, engaged government to help solve social ills.

I haven't touched a cigarette in ages (ditto for anything marijuana-related), but I am still going to stand up for individual liberties on this front and not look down my nose at people who choose to use them.

I don't buy it.  Why not just use a vape.  It's the same or better without the horrible side effects.  I was smoking for one year when I switched to it, and I noticed that I could breath better several days later.    

[Adam Griffin]

Of course they do, but it's not your choice to tell others what to do with their own bodies - nor that of any of the other authoritarians (whether they're masquerading as "freedom lovers" or not) ranting in this thread as predicted.

I’m not claiming it is, and you and everyone else have the right to smoke. But I make no apologies for wishing to see tobacco use reduced to the lowest level possible through ‘soft’ policies. The massive reduction in smoking over the past 50 years is one of Western’s society's greatest success stories in that period and a fantastic example of the power of an active, engaged government to help solve social ills.

I haven't touched a cigarette in ages (ditto for anything marijuana-related), but I am still going to stand up for individual liberties on this front and not look down my nose at people who choose to use them.

I don't buy it.  Why not just use a vape.  It's the same or better without the horrible side effects.  I was smoking for one year when I switched to it, and I noticed that I could breath better several days later.   

I mean, I don't disagree and there is nuance...but I imagine most anybody here arguing against cigarettes are in fact arguing against nicotine, and want to ban the substance itself as well as any habits associated with it. That includes vaping (as well as marijuana usage, I'm sure).

The OP put vaping, smoking and drug use all together, so I've been effectively debating with individuals on whichever points they bring up.

[Alcibiades]

Of course they do, but it's not your choice to tell others what to do with their own bodies - nor that of any of the other authoritarians (whether they're masquerading as "freedom lovers" or not) ranting in this thread as predicted.

I’m not claiming it is, and you and everyone else have the right to smoke. But I make no apologies for wishing to see tobacco use reduced to the lowest level possible through ‘soft’ policies. The massive reduction in smoking over the past 50 years is one of Western’s society's greatest success stories in that period and a fantastic example of the power of an active, engaged government to help solve social ills.

I haven't touched a cigarette in ages (ditto for anything marijuana-related), but I am still going to stand up for individual liberties on this front and not look down my nose at people who choose to use them.

I don't buy it.  Why not just use a vape.  It's the same or better without the horrible side effects.  I was smoking for one year when I switched to it, and I noticed that I could breath better several days later.   

I mean, I don't disagree and there is nuance...but I imagine most anybody here arguing against cigarettes are in fact arguing against nicotine, and want to ban the substance itself as well as any habits associated with it. That includes vaping (as well as marijuana usage, I'm sure).

The OP put vaping, smoking and drug use all together, so I've been effectively debating with individuals on whichever points they bring up.

Who here has advocated for banning nicotine?

[The Righteous Tip of the Abundance Spear]

Of course they do, but it's not your choice to tell others what to do with their own bodies - nor that of any of the other authoritarians (whether they're masquerading as "freedom lovers" or not) ranting in this thread as predicted.

I’m not claiming it is, and you and everyone else have the right to smoke. But I make no apologies for wishing to see tobacco use reduced to the lowest level possible through ‘soft’ policies. The massive reduction in smoking over the past 50 years is one of Western’s society's greatest success stories in that period and a fantastic example of the power of an active, engaged government to help solve social ills.

I haven't touched a cigarette in ages (ditto for anything marijuana-related), but I am still going to stand up for individual liberties on this front and not look down my nose at people who choose to use them.

Accepting that others have the right to do something doesn't mean that you forfeit the right to criticize them for it. Just like how in this thread, you looked down your nose at people who didn't abuse substances in high school. That's your prerogative.

*tut*

I looked down at people on this wealthy forum who have never used the substances and yet want to tell everybody else they can't, either. And I did that prematurely, before any of y'all wanted to come in here and tell people what to do with their bodies, so I mean...not even an attack really.

It's one thing for you to say you don't want to breathe in secondhand smoke in your own home. Quite another to root for the failure of those who choose to do so.

I find it interesting that you've connected all of the substances discussed in this thread (alcohol, vaping, cigarettes, and marijuana) with poverty. I mean, I suppose it's true that poor people are more likely to use these things, but the rate among wealthy teenagers is probably not accurately reflected in the statistics simply because they're less likely to get caught. When I think of potheads or cokeheads, I don't think of poor people just trying to distract themselves from the doldrums of life. I think of the wealthy, entitled children of suburban families who completely squander their good education, stable upbringing, and money on drugs. However you slice it, cigarettes and weed are a waste. They waste money, time, and lives. And strutting around acting as though you're a defender of the poor and downtrodden because you want to make sure they can keep self-medicating and dulling their pain is frankly outlandish.

[Hollywood]

Vape pens completely changed the equation for me.  You can take a few puffs out of the pen, and receive enough nicotine to feed your itch. So I agree with those people that want to eliminate cigarettes.  There’s just no reason to allow people to smoke cigarettes when there’s a demonstrably better option without the numerous health hazards associated with cigarettes.  The only studies showing really significant issues with vape is the ones that put rats in a gas chamber for an hour.   Duh!!! 

The only issue I see with vapes is that underage morons try to smoke a whole pen, or start putting other substances not meant for the cartridge. 

They're too convenient. Being essentially odorless, you can take puffs almost anywhere, any time. Most people end up more addicted than they were when they smoked, although it is still less harmful.

Sure.  I've noticed in some people that were smoking a pack or two a day.  That's where personal freedom comes to play.  Vape responsibly.  I have no other defense to the problem of addiction.

[Adam Griffin]

Who here has advocated for banning nicotine?

I find it interesting that you've connected all of the substances discussed in this thread (alcohol, vaping, cigarettes, and marijuana) with poverty. I mean, I suppose it's true that poor people are more likely to use these things, but the rate among wealthy teenagers is probably not accurately reflected in the statistics simply because they're less likely to get caught. When I think of potheads or cokeheads, I don't think of poor people just trying to distract themselves from the doldrums of life. I think of the wealthy, entitled children of suburban families who completely squander their good education, stable upbringing, and money on drugs. However you slice it, cigarettes and weed are a waste. They waste money, time, and lives. And strutting around acting as though you're a defender of the poor and downtrodden because you want to make sure they can keep self-medicating and dulling their pain is frankly outlandish.

I simply don't buy it, from you or most others. I highly doubt you and others are thinking about rich teenagers using parental money to smoke doobies or whatever when you look down upon those using these substances. Most people enter into arguments in bad faith: I'm just not the type of person who wants to wait around in the odd chance you actually out yourself (though you specifically - Dule - already did).

I've never minded arguing against what I believe one's actual position is rather than the polite version of it they try to pass off as knowledgeable advice and concern. You'll of course likely accuse me of creating strawmen, but let's be real: people don't s[inks]t all over a disproportionately-poor demographic and talk about how they're thinning out "competition" because they actually view them as being disproportionately well-off. Give us all a break here.

[Zohranism is OUR future]

Of course they do, but it's not your choice to tell others what to do with their own bodies - nor that of any of the other authoritarians (whether they're masquerading as "freedom lovers" or not) ranting in this thread as predicted.

I’m not claiming it is, and you and everyone else have the right to smoke. But I make no apologies for wishing to see tobacco use reduced to the lowest level possible through ‘soft’ policies. The massive reduction in smoking over the past 50 years is one of Western’s society's greatest success stories in that period and a fantastic example of the power of an active, engaged government to help solve social ills.

I haven't touched a cigarette in ages (ditto for anything marijuana-related), but I am still going to stand up for individual liberties on this front and not look down my nose at people who choose to use them.

I don't buy it.  Why not just use a vape.  It's the same or better without the horrible side effects.  I was smoking for one year when I switched to it, and I noticed that I could breath better several days later.    

I don’t know...
It’s a pretty untested product compared to cigarettes and the anecdotal evidence looks pretty bad.

[The Righteous Tip of the Abundance Spear]

Who here has advocated for banning nicotine?

I find it interesting that you've connected all of the substances discussed in this thread (alcohol, vaping, cigarettes, and marijuana) with poverty. I mean, I suppose it's true that poor people are more likely to use these things, but the rate among wealthy teenagers is probably not accurately reflected in the statistics simply because they're less likely to get caught. When I think of potheads or cokeheads, I don't think of poor people just trying to distract themselves from the doldrums of life. I think of the wealthy, entitled children of suburban families who completely squander their good education, stable upbringing, and money on drugs. However you slice it, cigarettes and weed are a waste. They waste money, time, and lives. And strutting around acting as though you're a defender of the poor and downtrodden because you want to make sure they can keep self-medicating and dulling their pain is frankly outlandish.

I simply don't buy it, from you or most others. I highly doubt you and others are thinking about rich teenagers using parental money to smoke doobies or whatever when you look down upon those using these substances. Most people enter into arguments in bad faith: I'm just not the type of person who wants to wait around in the odd chance you actually out yourself (though you specifically - Dule - already did).

I've never minded arguing against what I believe one's actual position is rather than the polite version of it they try to pass off as knowledgeable advice and concern. You'll of course likely accuse me of creating strawmen, but let's be real: people don't s[inks]t all over a disproportionately-poor demographic and talk about how they're thinning out "competition" because they actually view them as being disproportionately well-off.

You began this thread with an ad-hominem and I paid you back in kind to see if you could handle it. Apparently not.

[Adam Griffin]

Who here has advocated for banning nicotine?

I find it interesting that you've connected all of the substances discussed in this thread (alcohol, vaping, cigarettes, and marijuana) with poverty. I mean, I suppose it's true that poor people are more likely to use these things, but the rate among wealthy teenagers is probably not accurately reflected in the statistics simply because they're less likely to get caught. When I think of potheads or cokeheads, I don't think of poor people just trying to distract themselves from the doldrums of life. I think of the wealthy, entitled children of suburban families who completely squander their good education, stable upbringing, and money on drugs. However you slice it, cigarettes and weed are a waste. They waste money, time, and lives. And strutting around acting as though you're a defender of the poor and downtrodden because you want to make sure they can keep self-medicating and dulling their pain is frankly outlandish.

I simply don't buy it, from you or most others. I highly doubt you and others are thinking about rich teenagers using parental money to smoke doobies or whatever when you look down upon those using these substances. Most people enter into arguments in bad faith: I'm just not the type of person who wants to wait around in the odd chance you actually out yourself (though you specifically - Dule - already did).

I've never minded arguing against what I believe one's actual position is rather than the polite version of it they try to pass off as knowledgeable advice and concern. You'll of course likely accuse me of creating strawmen, but let's be real: people don't s[inks]t all over a disproportionately-poor demographic and talk about how they're thinning out "competition" because they actually view them as being disproportionately well-off.

You began this thread with an ad-hominem and I paid you back in kind to see if you could handle it. Apparently not.

Nothing you've said is relevant to my life. Nothing I initially said was specifically directed at you. You responded to my initial post with personal attacks, because they obviously struck a nerve. Don't try to be cute now after wanting to argue for pages, crap on poor people, and be all "I'M NOT OWNED, I'M NOT OWNED, YOU'RE OWNED".

[Figueira]

I hate to side with John Dule against Adam Griffin, but I'm really having a hard time figuring out how you can shame people for being virgins and simultaneously present yourself as some kind of champion of the downtrodden.

[Mopsus]

I find it interesting that you've connected all of the substances discussed in this thread (alcohol, vaping, cigarettes, and marijuana) with poverty. I mean, I suppose it's true that poor people are more likely to use these things, but the rate among wealthy teenagers is probably not accurately reflected in the statistics simply because they're less likely to get caught. When I think of potheads or cokeheads, I don't think of poor people just trying to distract themselves from the doldrums of life. I think of the wealthy, entitled children of suburban families who completely squander their good education, stable upbringing, and money on drugs. However you slice it, cigarettes and weed are a waste. They waste money, time, and lives. And strutting around acting as though you're a defender of the poor and downtrodden because you want to make sure they can keep self-medicating and dulling their pain is frankly outlandish.

When you get out into the workforce, you’ll notice that a disproportionate number of America’s social climbers are afflicted by extremely high-functioning anxiety - which makes them ideal workers in your preferred economic system, but also makes them constitutionally incapable of being alone with themselves without the assistance of mind-altering substances.

[Devout Centrist]

We all have our vices. Some of us like to smoke cigars now and then. Others enjoy a nice edible on the weekends. Still others drink five gallons of whole milk each week.

Where was I going with this...Oh yeah. Stay in school kids!

[Adam Griffin]

I hate to side with John Dule against Adam Griffin, but I'm really having a hard time figuring out how you can shame people for being virgins and simultaneously present yourself as some kind of champion of the downtrodden.

You could perhaps recognize me being facetious at the onset, targeting no posters in particular, in the hopes that these predictable kinds of nanny-statists wouldn't bark so loudly...whereas what followed was a series of direct personal attacks against me and actual elitist mentalities being expressed, but eh...

#BothSidesDoItIGuess

[Alcibiades]

I hate to side with John Dule against Adam Griffin, but I'm really having a hard time figuring out how you can shame people for being virgins and simultaneously present yourself as some kind of champion of the downtrodden.

You could perhaps recognize me being facetious at the onset, targeting no posters in particular, in the hopes that these predictable kinds of nanny-statists wouldn't bark so loudly...whereas what followed was a series of direct personal attacks against me and actual elitist mentalities being expressed, but eh...

#BothSidesDoItIGuess

Dule was being Dule, but I and others weren’t (and I don’t think he seriously was, he was just a bit irked by your attack against those who choose not to use substances) looking down on smokers on the basis of their socioeconomic demographics. I simply believe that tobacco use is a huge net negative for society, which is hard to argue with. You can call anti-smoking laws “nanny-statist”, but they have saved millions of lives over the past decades.

[The Righteous Tip of the Abundance Spear]

I hate to side with John Dule against Adam Griffin, but I'm really having a hard time figuring out how you can shame people for being virgins and simultaneously present yourself as some kind of champion of the downtrodden.

You could perhaps recognize me being facetious at the onset, targeting no posters in particular, in the hopes that these predictable kinds of nanny-statists wouldn't bark so loudly...whereas what followed was a series of direct personal attacks against me and actual elitist mentalities being expressed, but eh...

#BothSidesDoItIGuess

One could also interpret your initial comment as a completely random and unwarranted generalized ad-hominem, whereas my responses were merely intended to give you a taste of your own medicine.

[Devout Centrist]

Literally have never seen this anywhere in the real world or online, so I just assume you're spending time in weird niches.

Also, don't mind the Authoritarians of Atlas who will inevitably respond! Most well-educated teenage and 20-something virgins who don't know how to have fun have never experimented with any of these substances.

There are ways to have fun that don’t include tobacco and marijuana.

There are also ways to have fun with tobacco and weed! Give weed a try sometime, we're not talking about heroin or meth here.

[Adam Griffin]

I hate to side with John Dule against Adam Griffin, but I'm really having a hard time figuring out how you can shame people for being virgins and simultaneously present yourself as some kind of champion of the downtrodden.

You could perhaps recognize me being facetious at the onset, targeting no posters in particular, in the hopes that these predictable kinds of nanny-statists wouldn't bark so loudly...whereas what followed was a series of direct personal attacks against me and actual elitist mentalities being expressed, but eh...

#BothSidesDoItIGuess

One could also interpret your initial comment as a completely random and unwarranted generalized ad-hominem, whereas my responses were merely intended to give you a taste of your own medicine.

The "virgin" trope has existed on Atlas for as long as Atlas has existed, with it never causing multiple pages of tears prior. If newer posters aren't familiar with this particular form of Atlas pop-culture, they can consider themselves familiar with it now.

[Figueira]

I hate to side with John Dule against Adam Griffin, but I'm really having a hard time figuring out how you can shame people for being virgins and simultaneously present yourself as some kind of champion of the downtrodden.

You could perhaps recognize me being facetious at the onset, targeting no posters in particular, in the hopes that these predictable kinds of nanny-statists wouldn't bark so loudly...whereas what followed was a series of direct personal attacks against me and actual elitist mentalities being expressed, but eh...

#BothSidesDoItIGuess

One could also interpret your initial comment as a completely random and unwarranted generalized ad-hominem, whereas my responses were merely intended to give you a taste of your own medicine.

The "virgin" trope has existed on Atlas for as long as Atlas has existed, with it never causing multiple pages of tears prior. If newer posters aren't familiar with this particular form of Atlas pop-culture, they can consider themselves familiar with it now.

Oh, I'm very familiar with it. And it's toxic.