Do you support Armenia or Azerbaijan in the current conflict?
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  Do you support Armenia or Azerbaijan in the current conflict?
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Question: Do you support Armenia or Azerbaijan in the current conflict?
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Armenia
 
#2
Azerbaijan
 
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Total Voters: 57

Author Topic: Do you support Armenia or Azerbaijan in the current conflict?  (Read 2117 times)
FEMA Camp Administrator
Cathcon
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« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2020, 10:21:22 AM »

Due to the close proximity and political capital being invested in regard to Turkey, I’m backing Armenia

Which is backed by Russia
Yes, Armenia is a Russian client state in fact.

You say this like it's somehow an indictment of Armenia's own interests and actions rather than a pragmatic response by both involved.
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Figueira
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« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2020, 10:39:13 AM »

A girl from my MBA class is Armenian, so I admit I might be biased, but ... I’m not seeing a logical defense for not seeing Armenia as a victim here?

Also, Armenia is an ancient nation with a rich and VERY long history.  Did someone seriously just call it artificially created?!  I’d hate to hear his hot takes on Israel.

Yeah, Armenians are victims here, but the people of Azerbaijan are also victims and it's important to not lose sight of that. And yeah, calling Armenia "artificially created" is pretty ridiculous. All three of the independent countries in the Caucasus have long enough histories, although Azerbaijan (if you're defining it by the Turkic-speaking people who live there now) is the newest of the three.
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Former President tack50
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« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2020, 11:50:12 AM »

I am rather conflicted on this conflict. On one hand on paper Armenia seems like the lesser evil, being a democracy and Azerbaijan being the ones who attacked first.

On the other hand, looking at the region and international law, I would argue Azerbaijan is the country that is "right". The best solution in theory would probably for Nagorno-Karabakh to become some sort of "autonomous region" of Azerbaijan with an extremely high degree of autonomy and tons of protections for the ethnic armenians there, but I guess that is unlikely to happen.

Needless to say war is almost always bad and this is not an exception


This, but unironically
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Paul Weller
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« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2020, 12:50:17 PM »

I support the independence of Artsakh, so Armenia.
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TDAS04
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« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2020, 04:45:00 PM »

Armenia.
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HillGoose
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« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2020, 04:46:34 PM »

gonna be real i didnt know those were different places
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Chunk Yogurt for President!
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« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2020, 10:50:11 PM »
« Edited: September 28, 2020, 11:07:02 PM by CELTIC FUTURE »

Armenia all the way. r/christianity has a front page post asking us to pray for our Christian brothers and sisters there in their struggle against Azeri aggression.

Is it really right for r/christianity to turn it into a sectarian conflict?

What would you think about an Islamic forum calling its posters to support the Azerbaijani liberation of Muslim land?

Knowing r/Christianity, I'm surprised they didn't side against Armenia for religious reasons and then rant about Trump and Evangelicals.
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DINGO Joe
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« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2020, 12:35:58 AM »
« Edited: September 29, 2020, 12:54:52 AM by DINGO Joe »


Load up a couple pickup trucks of Georgians and head on out.
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DINGO Joe
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« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2020, 12:56:42 AM »

Neutral. I am not crazy about either country (the territories of Armenia and Azerbaijan were both originally part of Iran until the 1800s and artificially created as independent countries after the end of the Cold War) and feel that Iran should have invaded and annexed them as their new provinces by 1999 at the latest.

There's a ridiculously long history of conquering stuff in the Caucuses to be high risk low reward endeavors.
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DINGO Joe
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« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2020, 01:01:06 AM »

A girl from my MBA class is Armenian, so I admit I might be biased, but ... I’m not seeing a logical defense for not seeing Armenia as a victim here?

Also, Armenia is an ancient nation with a rich and VERY long history.  Did someone seriously just call it artificially created?!  I’d hate to hear his hot takes on Israel.

Armenia is kind of the Poland of the region.  In fact the fabled Polaqi empire should have been the Polmenia empire
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President Punxsutawney Phil
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« Reply #35 on: September 30, 2020, 02:09:52 AM »

Due to the close proximity and political capital being invested in regard to Turkey, I’m backing Armenia

Which is backed by Russia
Yes, Armenia is a Russian client state in fact.

You say this like it's somehow an indictment of Armenia's own interests and actions rather than a pragmatic response by both involved.
I'm not criticizing Armenia for making itself a Russian client state - but I am pointing out that that fact has to be considered in the equation insofar as one's views on the topic are concerned. I'm not going to fault Armenia for making decisions it has to make - that much is clear.
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FEMA Camp Administrator
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« Reply #36 on: September 30, 2020, 06:48:19 AM »
« Edited: September 30, 2020, 12:54:39 PM by Cath »

Due to the close proximity and political capital being invested in regard to Turkey, I’m backing Armenia

Which is backed by Russia
Yes, Armenia is a Russian client state in fact.

You say this like it's somehow an indictment of Armenia's own interests and actions rather than a pragmatic response by both involved.
I'm not criticizing Armenia for making itself a Russian client state - but I am pointing out that that fact has to be considered in the equation insofar as one's views on the topic are concerned. I'm not going to fault Armenia for making decisions it has to make - that much is clear.

I still think "client state" is a very strong term that ignores Armenia's autonomy--and its perennial quest to escape Russian hegemony. That it sends a few de-miners to Syria every few years doesn't make it little more than a tool of Russian foreign policy, and that can be seen in recent overtures to Israel and the EU. Sadly, its present state will likely persist sans a dramatic intervention by an as-of-yet uncommitted outside player.
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Filuwaúrdjan
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« Reply #37 on: September 30, 2020, 06:49:54 PM »

Broadly speaking I do not think it is a good idea to view wars as sporting fixtures, in which one roots for one team or the other. Which is certainly not the same thing as studied neutrality: some outcomes are worse than others.

In this particular case it should probably be noted that the Azeri government has been quite open about it's desire to ethnically cleanse Artsakh/Nagorno-Karabakh were it to conquer it. I tend to think that this would not be a very good thing to happen and hope that it does not. Of course it isn't certain if this invasion is supposed to be The Big Push or if it has more limited objectives. Though on this point the involvement of neighbouring states - especially Turkey - and foreign auxiliaries is concerning. It is no great secret that the Azeri military is greatly inferior to the Armenian and that considerable outside support would be a precondition of any serious attempt to conquer the province.
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Damocles
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« Reply #38 on: September 30, 2020, 07:41:24 PM »

Hoo. You guys are going to hate me for this, but I support the Azeri cause. Guaranteeing the integrity of the country’s pre-1991 borders could prove more useful to US foreign policy interests in the region than backing the Armenians.

For one thing, Azerbaijan proper is only one part of the region inhabited by ethnic Azeris, which also includes a significant chunk of northwestern Iran. The Tabriz region of Iran has always been politically unstable and rife with Azeri irredentists, whose desire to reunite with their kith and kin in Azerbaijan can be used as a useful tool to destabilize the Tehran regime and apply significant pressure on them for their breaches of the nuclear agreement.

Secondly, American support for Azerbaijan would counterbalance Russian presence in Armenia, and effectively cut down Russian influence in the Caucasus region. Russian offensives in Georgia in 2008 and effective colonization of Armenia have shown a proactive Russian policy in attempting to reassert dominance over the former Soviet republics, and keeping these nations out of Russia’s sphere of influence denies them strategic depth.

Finally, Baku sits on some of the richest hydrocarbon deposits and some of the busiest hydrocarbon transit corridors in the Caspian and Central Asian regions. Developing Azerbaijan as a key regional ally means undercutting both Russia *and* Iran, both of whom depend on hydrocarbon revenues for their economies.
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Sol
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« Reply #39 on: September 30, 2020, 09:29:37 PM »

Hoo. You guys are going to hate me for this, but I support the Azeri cause. Guaranteeing the integrity of the country’s pre-1991 borders could prove more useful to US foreign policy interests in the region than backing the Armenians.

And we should care about that why?
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PSOL
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« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2020, 10:19:14 PM »

Hoo. You guys are going to hate me for this, but I support the Azeri cause. Guaranteeing the integrity of the country’s pre-1991 borders could prove more useful to US foreign policy interests in the region than backing the Armenians.

For one thing, Azerbaijan proper is only one part of the region inhabited by ethnic Azeris, which also includes a significant chunk of northwestern Iran. The Tabriz region of Iran has always been politically unstable and rife with Azeri irredentists, whose desire to reunite with their kith and kin in Azerbaijan can be used as a useful tool to destabilize the Tehran regime and apply significant pressure on them for their breaches of the nuclear agreement.

Secondly, American support for Azerbaijan would counterbalance Russian presence in Armenia, and effectively cut down Russian influence in the Caucasus region. Russian offensives in Georgia in 2008 and effective colonization of Armenia have shown a proactive Russian policy in attempting to reassert dominance over the former Soviet republics, and keeping these nations out of Russia’s sphere of influence denies them strategic depth.

Finally, Baku sits on some of the richest hydrocarbon deposits and some of the busiest hydrocarbon transit corridors in the Caspian and Central Asian regions. Developing Azerbaijan as a key regional ally means undercutting both Russia *and* Iran, both of whom depend on hydrocarbon revenues for their economies.
Bruh, I like you, but holy s••• this take is as heavy as a Supernova.

Firstly, with America having such a heavy Armenian Diaspora, the effects of supporting Azerbaijan is a very dangerous gamble electorally. In terms of Geopolitical order, having a nation smack dab in the middle of the Caucasus, who just changed governments through a revolution would be a dumb idea, especially considering that Armenia has that position out of geographic necessity that could rapidly change. American interests are to urge for peace while getting rich off weapon sales here.

Iranian Azerbaijan, the place where modern Iranian nationalism was born, is not “rife with ethnic separatists”. Outside of very real grievances of moments of Persian Chauvinism, such as referring their language to one of bugs, most people in Iranian Azerbaijan don’t particularly want to split from the Country to Azerbaijan of all places, they want to grill Kebab in some place that isn’t the Islamic Republic like most other people. Like most problems in Iran, the first step for the whole population is an increasingly likely revolution some way down the line.

The ones that don’t, like Iranian Arabs, are usually Bourgeois boomers still salty about 1981–1988. They live mostly outside the country and have telecommunications based in Los Angeles, Arlington, London, and Tel Aviv where they angrily pout how the Mullahs took away their property—like most or the salty, right wing Iranian Diaspora. They have less presence and organization in the Azeri populace than either liberals, Shahis, and Marxists there. The only regions in Iran with “serious” ethnic strife are the Ardabil mountains where Lefty Kurdish Boomers and PJAK have a minor thing going on, and Al-Qaeda in Baluchistan.

As Leftists, as you should apparently be, it’s dumb to take sides here. I, pathetically, fell into this trap like a dumba$$ a while ago. Revolutionary defeatism and the realization that the elites of most countries are throwing the youth into a meat grinder should be the position here. Yes, this confrontation was most likely started by Azerbaijan in some cocky way since they thought they’d have Turkish Support, but it doesn’t matter. Our aims should be peace, prosperity, and empowerment of the working class in both countries to free themselves of their shackles big or small.
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It’s so Joever
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« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2020, 08:59:29 AM »
« Edited: October 01, 2020, 09:10:01 AM by Dr. Lurker »

Azerbaijan.
Even if I’m a Christian, this conflict really isn’t about religion, it’s geopolitical. Emboldening Armenia is just emboldening a Putin-bootlicking State and we can’t have that. Azerbaijan for anti-Russia reasons, not because they are “morally right” (no one is) Also their natural resources/potential could be very useful.

Realistically though, America probably shouldn’t jump into this right now. It’s very risky, although I am more sympathetic to the Azeri side on a personal level. Siding with Putin at a time like this is not acceptable.
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Chunk Yogurt for President!
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« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2020, 09:05:06 AM »

Atlas: Don't side with Armenia just because they're Christians, side with Azerbaijan o own the Russians.
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It’s so Joever
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« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2020, 09:09:05 AM »

Atlas: Don't side with Armenia just because they're Christians, side with Azerbaijan o own the Russians.
You have a problem with that?
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
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« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2020, 09:15:47 AM »

Azerbaijan.
Even if I’m a Christian, this conflict really isn’t about religion, it’s geopolitical. Emboldening Armenia is just emboldening a Putin-bootlicking State and we can’t have that. Azerbaijan for anti-Russia reasons, not because they are “morally right” (no one is) Also their natural resources/potential could be very useful.

Realistically though, America probably shouldn’t jump into this right now. It’s very risky, although I am more sympathetic to the Azeri side on a personal level. Siding with Putin at a time like this is not acceptable.

Siding with a Turkish client state against Armenia in particular doesn't strike me as a position from which one can claim any kind of high ground...
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It’s so Joever
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« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2020, 09:22:03 AM »

Azerbaijan.
Even if I’m a Christian, this conflict really isn’t about religion, it’s geopolitical. Emboldening Armenia is just emboldening a Putin-bootlicking State and we can’t have that. Azerbaijan for anti-Russia reasons, not because they are “morally right” (no one is) Also their natural resources/potential could be very useful.

Realistically though, America probably shouldn’t jump into this right now. It’s very risky, although I am more sympathetic to the Azeri side on a personal level. Siding with Putin at a time like this is not acceptable.

Siding with a Turkish client state against Armenia in particular doesn't strike me as a position from which one can claim any kind of high ground...
Fine, I have the moral low ground. Your point?
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World politics is up Schmitt creek
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« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2020, 09:30:02 AM »

Azerbaijan.
Even if I’m a Christian, this conflict really isn’t about religion, it’s geopolitical. Emboldening Armenia is just emboldening a Putin-bootlicking State and we can’t have that. Azerbaijan for anti-Russia reasons, not because they are “morally right” (no one is) Also their natural resources/potential could be very useful.

Realistically though, America probably shouldn’t jump into this right now. It’s very risky, although I am more sympathetic to the Azeri side on a personal level. Siding with Putin at a time like this is not acceptable.

Siding with a Turkish client state against Armenia in particular doesn't strike me as a position from which one can claim any kind of high ground...
Fine, I have the moral low ground. Your point?

I guess I just don't understand why siding with Erdogan is preferable to siding with Putin. If one is really concerned about emboldening dictators in the Caucasus, it seems to me that the proper position is a Kissingeresque "it's a shame they can't both lose" stance. Is it because Turkey is nominally a US ally and is thus less geopolitically dangerous to the United States in particular?
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It’s so Joever
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« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2020, 09:48:30 AM »

Azerbaijan.
Even if I’m a Christian, this conflict really isn’t about religion, it’s geopolitical. Emboldening Armenia is just emboldening a Putin-bootlicking State and we can’t have that. Azerbaijan for anti-Russia reasons, not because they are “morally right” (no one is) Also their natural resources/potential could be very useful.

Realistically though, America probably shouldn’t jump into this right now. It’s very risky, although I am more sympathetic to the Azeri side on a personal level. Siding with Putin at a time like this is not acceptable.

Siding with a Turkish client state against Armenia in particular doesn't strike me as a position from which one can claim any kind of high ground...
Fine, I have the moral low ground. Your point?

I guess I just don't understand why siding with Erdogan is preferable to siding with Putin. If one is really concerned about emboldening dictators in the Caucasus, it seems to me that the proper position is a Kissingeresque "it's a shame they can't both lose" stance. Is it because Turkey is nominally a US ally and is thus less geopolitically dangerous to the United States in particular?
Again, this is who I personally side with.

The US should stay as far away from this conflict as possible at this moment in time from a logical perspective.
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Sol
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« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2020, 12:48:42 PM »

Hoo. You guys are going to hate me for this, but I support the Azeri cause. Guaranteeing the integrity of the country’s pre-1991 borders could prove more useful to US foreign policy interests in the region than backing the Armenians.

For one thing, Azerbaijan proper is only one part of the region inhabited by ethnic Azeris, which also includes a significant chunk of northwestern Iran. The Tabriz region of Iran has always been politically unstable and rife with Azeri irredentists, whose desire to reunite with their kith and kin in Azerbaijan can be used as a useful tool to destabilize the Tehran regime and apply significant pressure on them for their breaches of the nuclear agreement.

Secondly, American support for Azerbaijan would counterbalance Russian presence in Armenia, and effectively cut down Russian influence in the Caucasus region. Russian offensives in Georgia in 2008 and effective colonization of Armenia have shown a proactive Russian policy in attempting to reassert dominance over the former Soviet republics, and keeping these nations out of Russia’s sphere of influence denies them strategic depth.

Finally, Baku sits on some of the richest hydrocarbon deposits and some of the busiest hydrocarbon transit corridors in the Caspian and Central Asian regions. Developing Azerbaijan as a key regional ally means undercutting both Russia *and* Iran, both of whom depend on hydrocarbon revenues for their economies.
Bruh, I like you, but holy s••• this take is as heavy as a Supernova.

Firstly, with America having such a heavy Armenian Diaspora, the effects of supporting Azerbaijan is a very dangerous gamble electorally. In terms of Geopolitical order, having a nation smack dab in the middle of the Caucasus, who just changed governments through a revolution would be a dumb idea, especially considering that Armenia has that position out of geographic necessity that could rapidly change. American interests are to urge for peace while getting rich off weapon sales here.

Iranian Azerbaijan, the place where modern Iranian nationalism was born, is not “rife with ethnic separatists”. Outside of very real grievances of moments of Persian Chauvinism, such as referring their language to one of bugs, most people in Iranian Azerbaijan don’t particularly want to split from the Country to Azerbaijan of all places, they want to grill Kebab in some place that isn’t the Islamic Republic like most other people. Like most problems in Iran, the first step for the whole population is an increasingly likely revolution some way down the line.

The ones that don’t, like Iranian Arabs, are usually Bourgeois boomers still salty about 1981–1988. They live mostly outside the country and have telecommunications based in Los Angeles, Arlington, London, and Tel Aviv where they angrily pout how the Mullahs took away their property—like most or the salty, right wing Iranian Diaspora. They have less presence and organization in the Azeri populace than either liberals, Shahis, and Marxists there. The only regions in Iran with “serious” ethnic strife are the Ardabil mountains where Lefty Kurdish Boomers and PJAK have a minor thing going on, and Al-Qaeda in Baluchistan.

This is a good overview of the history of Azeris in Iran and why they're more closely assimilated to an Iranian identity (though ofc things may have changed since 2010).
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Ferguson97
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« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2020, 08:32:09 PM »

Atlas: Don't side with Armenia just because they're Christians, side with Azerbaijan to own the Russians.

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