Map of American Protestant denominations
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Battista Minola 1616
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« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2020, 05:58:46 PM »

Also, has anyone ever come across a good Catholic vs. Mainline vs. Evangelical county map?  Initially, I thought I could just make one using this map and a "Largest Christian denomination" map, but since Catholicism is so centralized and big, it proved harder than I thought...

Found this on Google Images.
Uses 2010 data.
https://preview.redd.it/ukbch1c20xe41.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=c2bc82afe12b89591e443874b243802df9acb60a

Where is this data coming from?

Another interesting thing would be to group them by denominational traditions (ex. Lutherans of all varieties, Baptists of all varieties).

Found this on Google Images.
Uses 2000 data, I could not find one using 2010 data.
https://2012books.lardbucket.org/books/regional-geography-of-the-world-globalization-people-and-places/section_07/38b2b4f0a71dc29732dc7b6b35f99363.jpg
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Donerail
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« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2020, 06:14:50 PM »

Also, has anyone ever come across a good Catholic vs. Mainline vs. Evangelical county map?  Initially, I thought I could just make one using this map and a "Largest Christian denomination" map, but since Catholicism is so centralized and big, it proved harder than I thought...
Here you go

(source: own work; data from ARDA 2010 survey)
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Just Passion Through
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« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2020, 07:38:06 PM »

Not that I've ever been there (unfortunately), but parts of Montana seem to have an old Midwestern vibe.

(I mean, listen to how Steve Bullock talks.)
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Nathan
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« Reply #28 on: October 01, 2020, 12:06:12 PM »

Excellent find, Battista (and excellent work, Donerail). You really get a sense of the Lutheran strength in the northern Plains, Methodist strength in parts of Appalachia, and residual Congregationalist strength in Upper New England from those maps, compared to the attenuated status of the mainline churches in the rest of the country. Sixty or seventy years ago probably most of the Northeast and Midwest outside the big cities would have been mainline in those maps.

Not that I've ever been there (unfortunately), but parts of Montana seem to have an old Midwestern vibe.

(I mean, listen to how Steve Bullock talks.)

I think the heavily-Lutheran parts of Montana have basically the same dynamic as the Dakotas, i.e. Great Plains Norwegian-bachelor-farmer types. My understanding of Montana's geography is that the mountains don't start in earnest until about the longitude of Great Falls and Bozeman, and everything east of that is more economically and culturally similar to the prairie states than to the rest of the Mountain West. In baseball terms, apparently folks route for the Twins until you get to about Billings.
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TDAS04
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« Reply #29 on: October 01, 2020, 05:13:59 PM »

Eastern Montana is flat wheat country (been there).
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Mopsus
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« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2020, 05:59:13 PM »

Also, has anyone ever come across a good Catholic vs. Mainline vs. Evangelical county map?  Initially, I thought I could just make one using this map and a "Largest Christian denomination" map, but since Catholicism is so centralized and big, it proved harder than I thought...
Here you go

(source: own work; data from ARDA 2010 survey)

Strikingly, even the way mainline denominations appear on this map, a buffer zone between Catholics and evangelicals, suggests that their geographic foothold will only continue to be eroded by the two larger branches as time goes on. It’s kinda sad.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #31 on: October 02, 2020, 07:44:47 AM »
« Edited: October 02, 2020, 08:57:44 AM by RINO Tom »

^ Extremely* sad.

EDIT: I grew up Missouri Synod Lutheran (before we switched to ELCA after moving to another city), and I am always surprised to see it counted as "Evangelical."  Yes, it's more conservative, but I don't think that should be the main distinction, as a MS Lutheran's church experience is going to be fundamentally Mainline, and they would certainly feel more at home in a ELCA service than a Southern Baptist one.  In general, I am not a fan of taking conservative Mainline denominations and categorizing them as "Evangelical," and if you don't (i.e., count them as Mainline instead), that map would actually likely change quite a bit in the Midwest.  (In other words, cross-matching that map with a map of Missouri Synod Lutheran frequency matches some of the "Evangelical" counties in the Midwest pretty well.)
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realisticidealist
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« Reply #32 on: October 02, 2020, 10:11:40 AM »

Why is it sad? Mainline Protestantism's erosion is entirely its own doing.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #33 on: October 02, 2020, 10:39:34 AM »

^ Extremely* sad.

EDIT: I grew up Missouri Synod Lutheran (before we switched to ELCA after moving to another city), and I am always surprised to see it counted as "Evangelical."  Yes, it's more conservative, but I don't think that should be the main distinction, as a MS Lutheran's church experience is going to be fundamentally Mainline, and they would certainly feel more at home in a ELCA service than a Southern Baptist one.  In general, I am not a fan of taking conservative Mainline denominations and categorizing them as "Evangelical," and if you don't (i.e., count them as Mainline instead), that map would actually likely change quite a bit in the Midwest.  (In other words, cross-matching that map with a map of Missouri Synod Lutheran frequency matches some of the "Evangelical" counties in the Midwest pretty well.)

There was a thread years ago, where we came up with a four way division modelled on the political compass. The axes were religous modernism/traditionalism and worship modernism/traditionalism (with some high/low churchmanship mixed in). So you wind up with:

Mainline: ELCA, PCUSA etc
Evangelical: Southern Baptist, Assemblies of God etc.
Confessional: PCA, LCMS etc
Huh: BRTD

Never could arrive at a consensus on what to call the low church progressives Tongue
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #34 on: October 02, 2020, 10:41:09 AM »
« Edited: October 02, 2020, 10:48:59 AM by DC Al Fine »

Why is it sad? Mainline Protestantism's erosion is entirely its own doing.

Have to agree for the most part. The Mainline churches have made a lot of very poor decisions over the past half century, even down to relatively mundane administrative stuff.
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Nathan
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« Reply #35 on: October 02, 2020, 11:04:58 AM »

Why is it sad? Mainline Protestantism's erosion is entirely its own doing.

Have to agree for the most part. The Mainline churches have made a lot of very poor decisions over the past half century, even down to relatively mundane administrative stuff.

Mainline Protestantism's woes are definitely at least partly self-inflicted but I wholly disagree with describing them as "entirely" so. My theory of the mainline decline hinges on the Great Sort; mainline Protestantism is too "establishment" to become a Blue Tribe religion (like, say, Reform or Reconstructionist Judaism) and has staked out sociopolitical Stances too liberal to become a Red Tribe religion (like, say, the Southern Baptist Convention), so there's nowhere for it to go or to be except the "disappearing center" along with Conservative and Modern Orthodox Judaism, Pauline Mass normie Catholicism, etc. I tend to think pretty well of all those "disappearing center" religions because I think the sociological point of religion in America should be social cohesion rather than sectionalist enmity-mongering, but I don't think my reluctance to completely blame them for their own troubles is entirely due to personal fondness.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #36 on: October 02, 2020, 11:35:27 AM »

Why is it sad? Mainline Protestantism's erosion is entirely its own doing.

Have to agree for the most part. The Mainline churches have made a lot of very poor decisions over the past half century, even down to relatively mundane administrative stuff.

Regardless of the cause of its decline, I would argue the loss of relevance for Mainline Protestantism in the United States has had a huge impact on cultural attitudes and contributed quite negatively to an "us vs. them" dynamic for Evangelicals and more secular Americans.  I believe that if Mainline Protestantism enjoyed the prevalence it had in the mid-Twentieth Century, you would have a lot less toxic of cultural debates in this country right now.  It's also just sad to see the religious segment that was the majority of this country for ages and informed much of its philosophy wither away.
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Alcibiades
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« Reply #37 on: October 02, 2020, 11:50:10 AM »

Why is it sad? Mainline Protestantism's erosion is entirely its own doing.

Have to agree for the most part. The Mainline churches have made a lot of very poor decisions over the past half century, even down to relatively mundane administrative stuff.

Mainline Protestantism's woes are definitely at least partly self-inflicted but I wholly disagree with describing them as "entirely" so. My theory of the mainline decline hinges on the Great Sort; mainline Protestantism is too "establishment" to become a Blue Tribe religion (like, say, Reform or Reconstructionist Judaism) and has staked out sociopolitical Stances too liberal to become a Red Tribe religion (like, say, the Southern Baptist Convention), so there's nowhere for it to go or to be except the "disappearing center" along with Conservative and Modern Orthodox Judaism, Pauline Mass normie Catholicism, etc. I tend to think pretty well of all those "disappearing center" religions because I think the sociological point of religion in America should be social cohesion rather than sectionalist enmity-mongering, but I don't think my reluctance to completely blame them for their own troubles is entirely due to personal fondness.

Similar, but related, I would say that the cause of Mainline Protestantism’s decline is that as, over the past 50 years, more and more Americans have become irreligious, it has been from these denominations they have mainly been drawn. As a population becomes less religious, those left are likely to be more extreme in their beliefs.
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realisticidealist
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« Reply #38 on: October 02, 2020, 03:14:39 PM »

Why is it sad? Mainline Protestantism's erosion is entirely its own doing.

Have to agree for the most part. The Mainline churches have made a lot of very poor decisions over the past half century, even down to relatively mundane administrative stuff.

Mainline Protestantism's woes are definitely at least partly self-inflicted but I wholly disagree with describing them as "entirely" so. My theory of the mainline decline hinges on the Great Sort; mainline Protestantism is too "establishment" to become a Blue Tribe religion (like, say, Reform or Reconstructionist Judaism) and has staked out sociopolitical Stances too liberal to become a Red Tribe religion (like, say, the Southern Baptist Convention), so there's nowhere for it to go or to be except the "disappearing center" along with Conservative and Modern Orthodox Judaism, Pauline Mass normie Catholicism, etc. I tend to think pretty well of all those "disappearing center" religions because I think the sociological point of religion in America should be social cohesion rather than sectionalist enmity-mongering, but I don't think my reluctance to completely blame them for their own troubles is entirely due to personal fondness.

Similar, but related, I would say that the cause of Mainline Protestantism’s decline is that as, over the past 50 years, more and more Americans have become irreligious, it has been from these denominations they have mainly been drawn. As a population becomes less religious, those left are likely to be more extreme in their beliefs.

I would argue it's not about simply extremity of beliefs, but that Mainline Protestantism doesn't fulfill a core emotional need in the same way other branches of Christianity do.
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Alcibiades
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« Reply #39 on: October 02, 2020, 03:19:33 PM »

Why is it sad? Mainline Protestantism's erosion is entirely its own doing.

Have to agree for the most part. The Mainline churches have made a lot of very poor decisions over the past half century, even down to relatively mundane administrative stuff.

Mainline Protestantism's woes are definitely at least partly self-inflicted but I wholly disagree with describing them as "entirely" so. My theory of the mainline decline hinges on the Great Sort; mainline Protestantism is too "establishment" to become a Blue Tribe religion (like, say, Reform or Reconstructionist Judaism) and has staked out sociopolitical Stances too liberal to become a Red Tribe religion (like, say, the Southern Baptist Convention), so there's nowhere for it to go or to be except the "disappearing center" along with Conservative and Modern Orthodox Judaism, Pauline Mass normie Catholicism, etc. I tend to think pretty well of all those "disappearing center" religions because I think the sociological point of religion in America should be social cohesion rather than sectionalist enmity-mongering, but I don't think my reluctance to completely blame them for their own troubles is entirely due to personal fondness.

Similar, but related, I would say that the cause of Mainline Protestantism’s decline is that as, over the past 50 years, more and more Americans have become irreligious, it has been from these denominations they have mainly been drawn. As a population becomes less religious, those left are likely to be more extreme in their beliefs.

I would argue it's not about simply extremity of beliefs, but that Mainline Protestantism doesn't fulfill a core emotional need in the same way other branches of Christianity do.

I guess that 50-60 years ago, a large number of Mainline Protestants viewed religion and going to church as a primarily social activity. Their children and grandchildren have simply dispensed with this facade as it has become socially acceptable to be irreligious.
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #40 on: October 02, 2020, 11:45:55 PM »
« Edited: October 02, 2020, 11:56:52 PM by RINO Tom »

Why is it sad? Mainline Protestantism's erosion is entirely its own doing.

Have to agree for the most part. The Mainline churches have made a lot of very poor decisions over the past half century, even down to relatively mundane administrative stuff.

Mainline Protestantism's woes are definitely at least partly self-inflicted but I wholly disagree with describing them as "entirely" so. My theory of the mainline decline hinges on the Great Sort; mainline Protestantism is too "establishment" to become a Blue Tribe religion (like, say, Reform or Reconstructionist Judaism) and has staked out sociopolitical Stances too liberal to become a Red Tribe religion (like, say, the Southern Baptist Convention), so there's nowhere for it to go or to be except the "disappearing center" along with Conservative and Modern Orthodox Judaism, Pauline Mass normie Catholicism, etc. I tend to think pretty well of all those "disappearing center" religions because I think the sociological point of religion in America should be social cohesion rather than sectionalist enmity-mongering, but I don't think my reluctance to completely blame them for their own troubles is entirely due to personal fondness.

Similar, but related, I would say that the cause of Mainline Protestantism’s decline is that as, over the past 50 years, more and more Americans have become irreligious, it has been from these denominations they have mainly been drawn. As a population becomes less religious, those left are likely to be more extreme in their beliefs.

I would argue it's not about simply extremity of beliefs, but that Mainline Protestantism doesn't fulfill a core emotional need in the same way other branches of Christianity do.

I guess that 50-60 years ago, a large number of Mainline Protestants viewed religion and going to church as a primarily social activity. Their children and grandchildren have simply dispensed with this facade as it has become socially acceptable to be irreligious.

As a Mainline Protestant (though, quite relevantly, also a Lutheran), I’d say they viewed at as a PRIVATE thing, hence outsiders viewing our joining together for service as “social.”  The entirely community-based nature of many Evangelical congregations makes many Mainliners uncomfortable and seems like a sort of distortion of tradition.

If anything, the theatrics of these mega churches are the “social” nonsense, and the few remaining Mainliners are committing to a more personal and private relationship with God, as we believe it should be.
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DC Al Fine
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« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2020, 10:56:49 AM »

I'm aware of hypothesis that much religious decline in the West is due to the religious centre failing to hold. I'm quite sympathetic to it with regards to post-Vatican II Catholicism. The problem with applying it to Mainline Protestantism, is that to Evangelical and especially Confessional Protestant eyes, it seems like the Mainline made a great deal of effort to abandon said centre.

E.g. A former pastor in my parish joined the PCA after being censured for withholding communion from someone who denied the resurrection in his Mainline parish. Or similary Princeton Seminary "cancelled" Tim Keller, despite Rev. Keller's strong concern for social justice, caring for the poor, lack of political activism etc.

That sort of incident makes it very difficult for me to characterize the Mainlines as "religious centre" as opposed to conciously shifting to the "religious left".
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