Trump: Jews are "only in it for themselves" and "stick together"

[Adam Griffin]

I didn't know there was anyone capable to derail threads so well as to compete with Fuzzy Bear, but apparently I was wrong. Adam Griffin!

Should've seen me a few years ago. Gods, I was strong then!

[Adam Griffin]

To be fair, I was tipsy and just being facetious. Nevertheless, if people want to argue that his affiliation with a party has as much/less association with anti-semitic tropes than the leader of one in this country overtly expressing them himself, then I'm more than willing to engage.

Jdb didn't draw an equivalency between the African-American experience and the Jewish-American experience. You aren't fooling anyone with this faux-outrage routine.

Sure he did. No need to even make such a comparison unless comparisons were attempting to be drawn. I can talk about my forms of personal discrimination and/or experiences of rural life, LGBT life or any other number of anecdotes without needing to mention people of color as a comparison point. It's way too common in this country for a plethora of groups to try and draw a line (direct or otherwise) to BIPOC to generate some type of empathy. If the experience(s) are comparable, then fine; if not, they need to be called out.

Independent of that, I'm not going to be lectured about my views by the likes of you.

Griffin, I'm not gonna go round and round with you on this.  This is the last time I'm gonna comment on this, in fact.  I never equated the Jewish and African-American experiences.  You're a smart guy and you know that perfectly well, so let's call it a day with the faux-outrage, okay? 

You said that if someone made the comments Corbyn has about any group other than Jewish people, then no one would care.  I pointed out an example of an anti-Semitic quote by Jeremy Corbyn and then compared it to a hypothetical scenario where someone said the same thing except targeted against African-Americans to illustrate that such a comment would be considered appalling and utterly despicable even if it were about a minority group other than Jews. 

Rather than respond to what I actually said, you went on a long, rather offensive rant about how (at the risk of oversimplify things slightly) left-wing anti-Semitism isn't really all that bad because Jews aren't a real minority.  I get that you don't like the fact that you got yourself infracted, but the fact that you've even said you were "quasi-trolling" suggests that on some level even you knew you crossed the line.

I responded to what you actually said. Then you deleted it. I responded to this as well, then you deleted it + two other posts for "personal attacks" . 23 moderated posts in 16 years and 4 come from you in the past 3 hours.

[25 Abril/Aprile Sempre!]

I didn't know there was anyone capable to derail threads so well as to compete with Fuzzy Bear, but apparently I was wrong. Adam Griffin!

Should've seen me a few years ago. Gods, I was strong then!

I have no desire for that. This thread is already burning me.

[Adam Griffin]

I didn't know there was anyone capable to derail threads so well as to compete with Fuzzy Bear, but apparently I was wrong. Adam Griffin!

Should've seen me a few years ago. Gods, I was strong then!

I have no desire for that. This thread is already burning me.

You're burning? Reported for (literal) personal attack

[PSOL]

To be fair, I was tipsy and just being facetious. Nevertheless, if people want to argue that his affiliation with a party has as much/less association with anti-semitic tropes than the leader of one in this country overtly expressing them himself, then I'm more than willing to engage.

Jdb didn't draw an equivalency between the African-American experience and the Jewish-American experience. You aren't fooling anyone with this faux-outrage routine.

Sure he did. No need to even make such a comparison unless comparisons were attempting to be drawn. I can talk about my forms of personal discrimination and/or experiences of rural life, LGBT life or any other number of anecdotes without needing to mention people of color as a comparison point. It's way too common in this country for a plethora of groups to try and draw a line (direct or otherwise) to BIPOC to generate some type of empathy. If the experience(s) are comparable, then fine; if not, they need to be called out.

Independent of that, I'm not going to be lectured about my views by the likes of you.

Griffin, I'm not gonna go round and round with you on this.  This is the last time I'm gonna comment on this, in fact.  I never equated the Jewish and African-American experiences.  You're a smart guy and you know that perfectly well, so let's call it a day with the faux-outrage, okay? 

You said that if someone made the comments Corbyn has about any group other than Jewish people, then no one would care.  I pointed out an example of an anti-Semitic quote by Jeremy Corbyn and then compared it to a hypothetical scenario where someone said the same thing except targeted against African-Americans to illustrate that such a comment would be considered appalling and utterly despicable even if it were about a minority group other than Jews. 

Rather than respond to what I actually said, you went on a long, rather offensive rant about how (at the risk of oversimplify things slightly) left-wing anti-Semitism isn't really all that bad because Jews aren't a real minority.  I get that you don't like the fact that you got yourself infracted, but the fact that you've even said you were "quasi-trolling" suggests that on some level even you knew you crossed the line.

I responded to what you actually said. Then you deleted it. I responded to this as well, then you deleted it + two other posts for "personal attacks" . 23 moderated posts in 16 years and 4 come from you in the past 3 hours.

I can relate to this lol

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

But Corbyn once sat next to a Holocaust survivor who criticized Israel.

[Badger]

Y’know, oppression olympics is ultimately a tool for the ruling class to divide us. We must realize that we all have it sh!tty in this late capitalist America.

We need to be now united in throwing off our shackles no matter what type and create a society where we all live without issue from the elite. Donald Trump, in being the uncompromising faction, should be a wake-up call  that reform by electoral strategies has its limits, and we must not limit our cards. Because else we risk barbarism.

I wish I was able to "double recommend" a post.

[Badger]

Griffin, I'm not gonna go round and round with you on this.  This is the last time I'm gonna comment on this, in fact.  I never equated the Jewish and African-American experiences.  You're a smart guy and you know that perfectly well, so let's call it a day with the faux-outrage, okay?  

You said that if someone made the comments Corbyn has about Jewish people then no one would care.  I pointed out an example of an anti-Semitic quote by Jeremy Corbyn and then compared it to a hypothetical scenario where someone said the same thing except targeted against African-Americans to illustrate that such a comment would be considered appalling and utterly despicable even if it were about a minority group other than Jews.  

Rather than respond to what I actually said, you went on a long, rather offensive rant about how (at the risk of oversimplify things slightly) left-wing anti-Semitism isn't really all that bad because Jews aren't a real minority.  I get that you don't like the fact that you got yourself infracted, but the fact that you've even said you were "quasi-trolling" suggests that on some level even you knew you crossed the line.

You and Horus really spending your Friday nights this way.... where are your real friends ma???

I can't speak for Horus, but JTB is a law student and therefore, by definition, has no friends.

( present company excepted )

[pbrower2a]

Trump is trash. We know this. His attitude towards Jews has always been a mix of condescending and passingly hateful. What keeps us relatively safe from him is that we're useful to him because of the same stereotypes that usually work against us. He sees us as money-grubbing business types looking to make a quick buck - and he likes that.

He's still not 1/1000th as dangerous to us as Corbyn was. Was, because the wretched old bigot lost and is now irrelevant. Baruch Hashem.

I'm from an antisemitic family, and I have heard all this stuff. Then I went to an area where there were lots of Jews and got to know them. If they stick together it is for religious reasons only. They do not defend their rogues, which suggests that sticking together is for benign reasons.  I also came to recognize Jewish virtues such as respect for learning, culture, liberty, industry, fairness, and charity... Jews may not live up to that, and there are rogues...

Always complaining? If you had lost loved ones to the Holocaust, then you would have every right to complain.

Jew-haters often have some backhanded praise about Jews, such as that they are good with money... only to qualify that with some vice. Success depends more upon being good at what one does than at being greedy and materialistic.  

[R.P. McM]

BUT 👏 WHAT 👏 ABOUT 👏 JEREMY 👏 CORBYN

Porque no las dos?

"Both sides do it!"

They!  Do!  And some dumb repeated tag line doesn’t change that.

The leader of one party was identified as "anti-semitic" largely because members of the same party had made relatively mild comments over the years and decades interpreted as such (which would have been laughed away as meaningless had they been about any other group experiencing actual structural discrimination, but alas), whereas another party's actual leader is delving into the most blatant of stereotypes. But OK! They're both the same!

If you think Corbyn's anti-Semitic comments were so mild that they should be laughed away as meaningless, then that says far more about you than it does about Corbyn's anti-Semitism or lack thereof.  I mean, Corbyn has literally referred to Hamas terrorists as "brothers."  Are you seriously arguing that if Trump or Mitch McConnell called two Klansmen who shot up a black church his "brothers," that this would (or should) be laughed away as a "mild" and "meaningless" comment?  Because such a comment would be roughly the equivalent of what Corbyn has said.  And if that's what you think then...well...yikes!  

Lastly, Trump and Corbyn don't have to say the same things or be equally anti-Semitic in order both to be deeply anti-Semitic individuals (and both are).  Trump is certainly more dangerous right now, but that isn't a mitigating factor with respect to Corbyn's own anti-Semitism.

Is Corbyn genuinely an anti-Semite, or are you conflating political radicalism — specifically, the militant, anti-colonial, left-wing variety — with hatred of Jews? Because I can certainly imagine a pluralistic ideologue speaking favorably of groups he perceives, erroneously or not, as oppressed freedom fighters. Were Corbyn truly motivated by bigotry, one would expect his statements concerning Hamas and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to be an isolated occurrence. If, on the other hand, Corbyn had spent his entire career agitating on behalf of such causes without regard to ethnicity, religion, or national borders — say, playing footsie with the IRA — the charge would be far less persuasive.

And that's the problem with most of these purported instances of left-wing anti-Semitism: subtract criticism of Israeli policy, and there's nothing left.      


*Badger has it right, except for the fact that no one on this thread/forum is actually a persuadable voter. So we're free to embark on pointless digressions as the Republic burns.

[Santander]

Is Corbyn genuinely an anti-Semite, or are you conflating political radicalism — specifically, the militant, anti-colonial, leftwing variety — with hatred of Jews? Because, I can certainly imagine a pluralistic ideologue speaking favorably of groups he perceives, erroneously or not, as oppressed freedom fighters. Were Corbyn truly motivated by bigotry, one would expect his statements concerning Hamas and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to be an isolated occurrence. If, on the other hand, Corbyn had spent his entire career agitating on behalf of such causes without regard to ethnicity, religion, or national borders — say, evincing solidarity with the IRA — the charge would be far less persuasive.

One can be antisemitic without hating Jews. There are varying degrees and forms of antisemitism, just as there are with any form of racism.

[R.P. McM]

Is Corbyn genuinely an anti-Semite, or are you conflating political radicalism — specifically, the militant, anti-colonial, leftwing variety — with hatred of Jews? Because, I can certainly imagine a pluralistic ideologue speaking favorably of groups he perceives, erroneously or not, as oppressed freedom fighters. Were Corbyn truly motivated by bigotry, one would expect his statements concerning Hamas and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to be an isolated occurrence. If, on the other hand, Corbyn had spent his entire career agitating on behalf of such causes without regard to ethnicity, religion, or national borders — say, evincing solidarity with the IRA — the charge would be far less persuasive.

One can be antisemitic without hating Jews. There are varying degrees and forms of antisemitism, just as there are with any form of racism.

Yeah, I suppose one could feel antipathy toward all Semitic people, which would include many Palestinians. Otherwise, I have no clue what you're talking about.

[Crumpets]

Is Corbyn genuinely an anti-Semite, or are you conflating political radicalism — specifically, the militant, anti-colonial, leftwing variety — with hatred of Jews? Because, I can certainly imagine a pluralistic ideologue speaking favorably of groups he perceives, erroneously or not, as oppressed freedom fighters. Were Corbyn truly motivated by bigotry, one would expect his statements concerning Hamas and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to be an isolated occurrence. If, on the other hand, Corbyn had spent his entire career agitating on behalf of such causes without regard to ethnicity, religion, or national borders — say, evincing solidarity with the IRA — the charge would be far less persuasive.

One can be antisemitic without hating Jews. There are varying degrees and forms of antisemitism, just as there are with any form of racism.

Yeah, I suppose one could feel antipathy toward all Semitic people, which would include many Palestinians. Otherwise, I have no clue what you're talking about.

One can do things and say things that are anti-Semitic without understanding the anti-Semitic aspect of it that might make them act otherwise if they knew. For example, if a city planner from Europe who knows nothing about New York City were to design a big new Olympic park to be put in South Williamsburg, displacing everyone that lives there, that would be an anti-Semitic action, even if the person doing it wasn't doing it for anti-Semitic reasons.

[Trump Is A Maoist]

Is Corbyn genuinely an anti-Semite, or are you conflating political radicalism — specifically, the militant, anti-colonial, leftwing variety — with hatred of Jews? Because, I can certainly imagine a pluralistic ideologue speaking favorably of groups he perceives, erroneously or not, as oppressed freedom fighters. Were Corbyn truly motivated by bigotry, one would expect his statements concerning Hamas and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to be an isolated occurrence. If, on the other hand, Corbyn had spent his entire career agitating on behalf of such causes without regard to ethnicity, religion, or national borders — say, evincing solidarity with the IRA — the charge would be far less persuasive.

One can be antisemitic without hating Jews. There are varying degrees and forms of antisemitism, just as there are with any form of racism.

Yeah, I suppose one could feel antipathy toward all Semitic people, which would include many Palestinians. Otherwise, I have no clue what you're talking about.

One can do things and say things that are anti-Semitic without understanding the anti-Semitic aspect of it that might make them act otherwise if they knew. For example, if a city planner from Europe who knows nothing about New York City were to design a big new Olympic park to be put in South Williamsburg, displacing everyone that lives there, that would be an anti-Semitic action, even if the person doing it wasn't doing it for anti-Semitic reasons.

I'm not sure I like defining anti-semetism as broadly as your example does. Just my opinion of course.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Not a fan of Corbyn but he's no longer relevant and a pretty weird thread derail. Shut up about him.

The irony is that Corbyn wasn't brought up in this thread out of a genuine whataboutism; he was brought up by Griffin, who was acting as though Trump's garden-variety stereotyping somehow erases the numerous instances in which Corbyn either expressed or tolerated Antisemitic views or praised people who kill Israelis.

It was mostly deleted, along with most of my responses, but he did something very similar in the thread about De Blasio's menacing comments to the NY Jewish community in April.

Please be quiet, Republican. Stay in New Jersey and vote for Trump if you feel like the left hates you more.

I'm not even close to where Goldfield is politically and I agree with him that your water-carrying for left-antisemitism in this thread and others like it is disgraceful.

Suggesting that American Jews are more privileged than black Americans is not antisemitic, it is a cold hard fact. It takes some gall to think otherwise and quite the persecution complex.

What Nathan said.

[R.P. McM]

Is Corbyn genuinely an anti-Semite, or are you conflating political radicalism — specifically, the militant, anti-colonial, leftwing variety — with hatred of Jews? Because, I can certainly imagine a pluralistic ideologue speaking favorably of groups he perceives, erroneously or not, as oppressed freedom fighters. Were Corbyn truly motivated by bigotry, one would expect his statements concerning Hamas and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to be an isolated occurrence. If, on the other hand, Corbyn had spent his entire career agitating on behalf of such causes without regard to ethnicity, religion, or national borders — say, evincing solidarity with the IRA — the charge would be far less persuasive.

One can be antisemitic without hating Jews. There are varying degrees and forms of antisemitism, just as there are with any form of racism.

Yeah, I suppose one could feel antipathy toward all Semitic people, which would include many Palestinians. Otherwise, I have no clue what you're talking about.

One can do things and say things that are anti-Semitic without understanding the anti-Semitic aspect of it that might make them act otherwise if they knew. For example, if a city planner from Europe who knows nothing about New York City were to design a big new Olympic park to be put in South Williamsburg, displacing everyone that lives there, that would be an anti-Semitic action, even if the person doing it wasn't doing it for anti-Semitic reasons.

A couple of examples from my own life:

• The Catholic middle school I attended has since been demolished and replaced by an apartment building.

• The grocery store I frequent no longer carries any form of kosher salt apart from the coarse variety, which is really only suitable for pretzels.

[Anni di ghiaccio]

I pointed out an example of an anti-Semitic quote by Jeremy Corbyn

No you didn't.

I didn't see this discussion before, but I'm not surprised that it's devolved from a discussion of actual anti-semitism into ravings about the vast left-wing bogeyman. Hogan 2024's incredibly misguided screed of calling Corbyn 1000x more dangerous than a president whose words directly inspired a synagogue massacre of eleven Jewish souls less than 2 years ago is especially alarming and goes to show how entrenched this nonsense became.

Palestinians are human beings. That does not make you an anti-Semite. Period.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

I pointed out an example of an anti-Semitic quote by Jeremy Corbyn

No you didn't.

I didn't see this discussion before, but I'm not surprised that it's devolved from a discussion of actual anti-semitism into ravings about the vast left-wing bogeyman. Hogan 2024's incredibly misguided screed of calling Corbyn 1000x more dangerous than a president whose words directly inspired a synagogue massacre of eleven Jewish souls less than 2 years ago is especially alarming and goes to show how entrenched this nonsense became.

Palestinians are human beings. That does not make you an anti-Semite. Period.

Having your screen name is basically the equivalent of parading around a forum with "Steve King Republican" as your banner. Whether you intended it to be or not (and I doubt it, because you don't seem like a bad person), it's an act that serves to intimidate those targeted by a hate group. I didn't intent to address it because we all have the right to choose our screen names, but if you're going to come in and stan Corbyn, then it needs to be said.

The Tree of Life shooter was NOT inspired by Trump. In fact, he hated him - he considered him controlled by Jews and ranted extensively about him on his hate-forum.

Most Jews consider Palestinians human beings. The same can't be said for most hard-left "Palestine stans" and the Jews.

And yes, Trump's base anti-semitism still does not strike me as equally dangerous to Corbyn's unambiguous thirty-year campaign against Jewish safety anywhere. Thankfully, as I said, that irrelevant evil old man got his ass kicked and hopefully Trump will follow suit in just over a month.

[Tokugawa Sexgod Ieyasu]

Is Corbyn genuinely an anti-Semite, or are you conflating political radicalism — specifically, the militant, anti-colonial, leftwing variety — with hatred of Jews? Because, I can certainly imagine a pluralistic ideologue speaking favorably of groups he perceives, erroneously or not, as oppressed freedom fighters. Were Corbyn truly motivated by bigotry, one would expect his statements concerning Hamas and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to be an isolated occurrence. If, on the other hand, Corbyn had spent his entire career agitating on behalf of such causes without regard to ethnicity, religion, or national borders — say, evincing solidarity with the IRA — the charge would be far less persuasive.

One can be antisemitic without hating Jews. There are varying degrees and forms of antisemitism, just as there are with any form of racism.

Yeah, I suppose one could feel antipathy toward all Semitic people, which would include many Palestinians. Otherwise, I have no clue what you're talking about.

One can do things and say things that are anti-Semitic without understanding the anti-Semitic aspect of it that might make them act otherwise if they knew. For example, if a city planner from Europe who knows nothing about New York City were to design a big new Olympic park to be put in South Williamsburg, displacing everyone that lives there, that would be an anti-Semitic action, even if the person doing it wasn't doing it for anti-Semitic reasons.

I'm not sure I like defining anti-semetism as broadly as your example does. Just my opinion of course.

For clarity's sake, are you skeptical of broad definitions of racism/prejudice in general ("implicit bias" etc.), or is it something specific to do with antisemitism?

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Is Corbyn genuinely an anti-Semite, or are you conflating political radicalism — specifically, the militant, anti-colonial, leftwing variety — with hatred of Jews? Because, I can certainly imagine a pluralistic ideologue speaking favorably of groups he perceives, erroneously or not, as oppressed freedom fighters. Were Corbyn truly motivated by bigotry, one would expect his statements concerning Hamas and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to be an isolated occurrence. If, on the other hand, Corbyn had spent his entire career agitating on behalf of such causes without regard to ethnicity, religion, or national borders — say, evincing solidarity with the IRA — the charge would be far less persuasive.

One can be antisemitic without hating Jews. There are varying degrees and forms of antisemitism, just as there are with any form of racism.

Yeah, I suppose one could feel antipathy toward all Semitic people, which would include many Palestinians. Otherwise, I have no clue what you're talking about.

One can do things and say things that are anti-Semitic without understanding the anti-Semitic aspect of it that might make them act otherwise if they knew. For example, if a city planner from Europe who knows nothing about New York City were to design a big new Olympic park to be put in South Williamsburg, displacing everyone that lives there, that would be an anti-Semitic action, even if the person doing it wasn't doing it for anti-Semitic reasons.

I'm not sure I like defining anti-semetism as broadly as your example does. Just my opinion of course.

For clarity's sake, are you skeptical of broad definitions of racism/prejudice in general ("implicit bias" etc.), or is it something specific to do with antisemitism?

Yeah, it seems pretty reasonable - an action can be functionally racist/antisemitic without having racist or antisemitic intentions.

[R.P. McM]

Is Corbyn genuinely an anti-Semite, or are you conflating political radicalism — specifically, the militant, anti-colonial, leftwing variety — with hatred of Jews? Because, I can certainly imagine a pluralistic ideologue speaking favorably of groups he perceives, erroneously or not, as oppressed freedom fighters. Were Corbyn truly motivated by bigotry, one would expect his statements concerning Hamas and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to be an isolated occurrence. If, on the other hand, Corbyn had spent his entire career agitating on behalf of such causes without regard to ethnicity, religion, or national borders — say, evincing solidarity with the IRA — the charge would be far less persuasive.

One can be antisemitic without hating Jews. There are varying degrees and forms of antisemitism, just as there are with any form of racism.

Yeah, I suppose one could feel antipathy toward all Semitic people, which would include many Palestinians. Otherwise, I have no clue what you're talking about.

One can do things and say things that are anti-Semitic without understanding the anti-Semitic aspect of it that might make them act otherwise if they knew. For example, if a city planner from Europe who knows nothing about New York City were to design a big new Olympic park to be put in South Williamsburg, displacing everyone that lives there, that would be an anti-Semitic action, even if the person doing it wasn't doing it for anti-Semitic reasons.

I'm not sure I like defining anti-semetism as broadly as your example does. Just my opinion of course.

For clarity's sake, are you skeptical of broad definitions of racism/prejudice in general ("implicit bias" etc.), or is it something specific to do with antisemitism?

Only antisemitism — you caught T'Chenka! Nah, I won't presume to speak for him/her, but I do second the opinion that the perspective advanced by Crumpets seems problematic. Specifically, the notion of expanding the definition of bigotry to include the second-order effects of conduct devoid of prejudicial intent. I think this stretches the concept beyond recognition and saps its potency. Given the realities of scarce resources and conflicting claims, everyday existence entails numerous acts that could pose negative consequences to some subset of the population somewhere. Individuals and institutions ought to be mindful of such consequences, but I don't think it serves the interests of marginalized groups to conflate insensitivity or indifference with outright hostility.

[pbrower2a]

Is Corbyn genuinely an anti-Semite, or are you conflating political radicalism — specifically, the militant, anti-colonial, leftwing variety — with hatred of Jews? Because, I can certainly imagine a pluralistic ideologue speaking favorably of groups he perceives, erroneously or not, as oppressed freedom fighters. Were Corbyn truly motivated by bigotry, one would expect his statements concerning Hamas and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to be an isolated occurrence. If, on the other hand, Corbyn had spent his entire career agitating on behalf of such causes without regard to ethnicity, religion, or national borders — say, evincing solidarity with the IRA — the charge would be far less persuasive.

One can be antisemitic without hating Jews. There are varying degrees and forms of antisemitism, just as there are with any form of racism.

One can hurt people without hating them. Making money and a car available to an addict after being told that the fellow is going to rehab is likely to do more harm than good if the addict drives instead to a place where he spends the money to score a fix. Likewise, the insecurity of ability to remain where one is has pushed Jews into some activities (medicine, education, science, theater, music, retailing, brewing, jewelry-making, and even money-lending) as opposed to others (farming, heavy industry, mining) in the past. Just think of how frequent the words Silver and Gold appear in Jewish surnames (Goldwater, Silberstein). Good physicians, teachers, and scientists can always find a safe haven. Retailing? The Jewish merchant is often renting his store from a gentile and selling wares on consignment from a gentile wholesaler. Theater? Music? Many of the Jewish performers cast out of the German movie industry and symphony orchestras found their way to American cities, often entertaining audiences with plenty of people of German stock. Brewing? If you can brew small batches of beer in Pilsen, you can also do so in Pittsburgh. Jewish money-lenders often found that before they left they could sell the notes for cash to start lending elsewhere.

Farms, mines, railroads, steel mills, and grain mills are easy to confiscate.