SENATE RESOLUTION: Vice President Reform Amendment (Passed)

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

SENATE RESOLUTION

To amend Article 4 to provide for the separate elections of VPs and the creation of a Deputy President of Congress.

Upon joint concurrence of the resolution by both Houses of Congress Assembled and ratified by the regions that...

1. Article 4, Section 1, Cause 2 is amended as follows:

Elections for President and Vice President shall be held in the months of February, June, and October, in accordance with the measures prescribed by the Congress of the Republic of Atlasia. Each candidate for The President and Vice President shall run jointly with a candidate for Vice President, with whom his name shall appear jointly on the ballot be elected separately from each other on the same ballot. A vote for a candidate for President shall be considered a vote for the candidate for Vice President whose name appears on the ballot with the presidential candidate, and accordingly the candidate for Vice President whose name appears on the ballot with the successful candidate for President shall be elected.

2. That Article 4, Section 3, Clause 4 shall read as follows:

At the beginning of each session of Congress, a joint session of both houses of Congress convened by the Senate Presiding Officer shall elect a Deputy President of Congress to fill in for the Vice President's duties in the Congress whenever the Vice President shall by resignation, selective designation, declaration of absence or by falling inactive for a period of 72 hours assume the responsibility of President of Congress.

Amendment Explanation

This amendment if ratified would separate out elections for the Vice Presidency from that of the Presidential ticket and provide a mechanism for the selection of a Deputy President of Congress.

People's Regional Senate
Pending

Sponsor: NC Yankee, loosely based on Ishan proposal
Senate Designation: SR26:07

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The sponsor has 24 hours to advocate for this resolution.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

This was taken from the Ishan proposal but it was nearly completely rewritten and uses a model of two separate elections on the same ballot, while his proposal had basically a pre-12th amendment from RL US approach and that didn't appeal to me.

For my view, a separate election of the VP would thus ensure that rather than have tickets composed based on political considerations at the expense of competence and activity, it would actually lead to a contest of who is the best person for the job based on their competence, history, qualifications and experience. 

This would mean actual discussions about the mechanics of Congress that would thus lead to people if not immediately, at least over time coming to appreciate and thus vote based less on the other bs and vote for the person that is best able to do the job. That's the pie in the sky version of how things should work.

I am willing to compromise on the specifics, but section 2 here is non-negotiable at least in some form, I am determined to see that added to the constitution even if not via this method of selection, which is mainly done this way to try and do something with joint sessions since there is some appetite their it seems. The PoC needs a defined deputy that can operate in both houses and function above the Speaker and PPT, that is the only effective way to mitigate an inactive VP.

[Former President tack50]

I am in agreement with section 2, though instead of a deputy president of Congress, can't we simply make it clear that the Speaker and PPT are empowered to step on behalf of the VP?

As for separate election of the VP, while it sounds like an interesting mechanic (and in fact is one I supported when I was a newbie who had just joined Atlasia), my worry with it is that, as long as the VP is "only a heartbeat away from the presidency", the VP will still be elected based on partisan concerns first and actual competence will be an afterthought.

Even if the election for VP was a painfully obvious election based on competence like idk, Yankee vs Ishan or something, partisan concerns would trump competence concerns because of what would happen if the president were to resign.

Let's be real, unfortunately no zombie is going to split his ticket for President and VP on the issue of competence. It is a sad reality but a reality we have to face nontheless.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I am in agreement with section 2, though instead of a deputy president of Congress, can't we simply make it clear that the Speaker and PPT are empowered to step on behalf of the VP?

From my experience, having the PPT and Speaker "step up" or read "take on the burden" is just not practical. 1. It creates an addition burden for the chamber presiding officers creating the risk of a sequential breakdown of activity and 2. splits up the PoC role in such a way as to reduce its effectiveness.

The PoC needs to have a view of things above both chambers to be effective and having two people, who are tunnel visioned for all intents and purposes on their own chamber, take that on negates that effect. My preference is for a single individual who is not Speaker and not PPT to take on this role as a Deputy, either by Congressional selection or VP appointment, just like the deputy system in each chamber.

[Mike Thick]

I support Section 2. Will wait to see some of the arguments about Section 1, but my gut feeling is that in practice it wouldn't change very much.

[Continential]

bumping after a week of being inactive

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

bumping after a week of being inactive

I am weighing my options in terms of splitting it, or proceeding as is.

[Esteemed Jimmy]

I oppose section 1.

[Former President tack50]

I think we should strike section 1 and just leave this with section 2 only given the feedback?

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

If you really want the VP to be chosen based on administrative ability rather than partisanship, a direct popular vote is probably the worst way to go about it. Have Congress elect them by a joint session if you must.

[Continential]

Or we could elect them by the 2nd most votes like the original constitution of America. I don't support this and support electing VPs but it's a means to a end.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

Or we could elect them by the 2nd most votes like the original constitution of America. I don't support this and support electing VPs but it's a means to a end.

I am not fond of the early American system of runner up getting it.

I will be offering an amendment tonight when I get home.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

SENATE RESOLUTION

To amend Article 4 to provide for the creation of a Deputy President of Congress.

Upon joint concurrence of the resolution by both Houses of Congress Assembled and ratified by the regions That Article 4, Section 3, Clause 4 shall read as follows:

At the beginning of each session of Congress, or whenever the post shall be vacant, a joint session of both houses of Congress convened by the Senate Presiding Officer shall elect a Deputy President of Congress to fill in for the Vice President's duties in the Congress whenever the Vice President shall by resignation, selective designation, declaration of absence or by falling inactive for a period of 72 hours assume the responsibility of President of Congress.

Amendment Explanation

This amendment if ratified would provide a mechanism for the selection of a Deputy President of Congress.

People's Regional Senate
Pending

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

SENATE RESOLUTION

To amend Article 4 to provide for the creation of a Deputy President of Congress.

Upon joint concurrence of the resolution by both Houses of Congress Assembled and ratified by the regions That Article 4, Section 3, Clause 4 shall read as follows:

At the beginning of each session of Congress, or whenever the post shall be vacant, a joint session of both houses of Congress convened by the Senate Presiding Officer shall elect a Deputy President of Congress to fill in for the Vice President's duties in the Congress whenever the Vice President shall by resignation, selective designation, declaration of absence or by falling inactive for a period of 72 hours assume the responsibility of President of Congress.

Amendment Explanation

This amendment if ratified would provide a mechanism for the selection of a Deputy President of Congress.

People's Regional Senate
Pending

Sponsor Feedback: Origination
Status: Senators have 24 hours to object.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

What does "selective designation" mean? "Delegation?"

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

What does "selective designation" mean? "Delegation?"

Basically yes. My intent is for a situation where PoC assigns tasks to the Deputy outside of the Leave of Absence route.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The amendment is adopted.

I will await feedback from Truman before proceeding to ensure his concern is addressed.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I would just say "delegation" in that case. "Fill in for" should be changed to "exercise."

The bit about 72 hours strikes me as along time to be without a president of Congress. In Frémont we allow the speaker to carry out the FM's procedural duties whenever the latter is unavailable (in essence whoever gets to it first), which I think is a good system and useful in situations where for instance a continuing resolution needs to be passed in less than 72 hours and the VP is unreachable.

More conceptually, I don't see why we need a vice president and a deputy president, but I don't have strong feelings about it either way.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

SENATE RESOLUTION

To amend Article 4 to provide for the creation of a Deputy President of Congress.

Upon joint concurrence of the resolution by both Houses of Congress Assembled and ratified by the regions That Article 4, Section 3, Clause 4 shall read as follows:

At the beginning of each session of Congress, or whenever the post shall be vacant, a joint session of both houses of Congress convened by the Senate Presiding Officer shall elect a Deputy President of Congress to fill in for exercise the Vice President's duties in the Congress whenever the Vice President shall have resigned, selective designation delegated, declared an absence or was inactive for a period of 72 24 hours assume the responsibility of President of Congress.

Amendment Explanation

This amendment if ratified would provide a mechanism for the selection of a Deputy President of Congress.

People's Regional Senate
Pending

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

This amendment  accounts for most of Truman's recommendation, I dropped to 24 from 72 mainly a substitute for going with Truman's Fremont idea, but because that would require a more substantial rewrite of the text and I want to get the other matters resolved first before diving into that aspect.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

SENATE RESOLUTION

To amend Article 4 to provide for the creation of a Deputy President of Congress.

Upon joint concurrence of the resolution by both Houses of Congress Assembled and ratified by the regions That Article 4, Section 3, Clause 4 shall read as follows:

At the beginning of each session of Congress, or whenever the post shall be vacant, a joint session of both houses of Congress convened by the Senate Presiding Officer shall elect a Deputy President of Congress to fill in for exercise the Vice President's duties in the Congress whenever the Vice President shall have resigned, selective designation delegated, declared an absence or was inactive for a period of 72 24 hours assume the responsibility of President of Congress.

Amendment Explanation

This amendment if ratified would provide a mechanism for the selection of a Deputy President of Congress.

People's Regional Senate
Pending

Sponsor Feedback: Origination
Status: Senators have 24 hours to object.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

The amendment is adopted.

[Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee]

I would just say "delegation" in that case. "Fill in for" should be changed to "exercise."

The bit about 72 hours strikes me as along time to be without a president of Congress. In Frémont we allow the speaker to carry out the FM's procedural duties whenever the latter is unavailable (in essence whoever gets to it first), which I think is a good system and useful in situations where for instance a continuing resolution needs to be passed in less than 72 hours and the VP is unreachable.

More conceptually, I don't see why we need a vice president and a deputy president, but I don't have strong feelings about it either way.

Is this the relevant passage:

Section 5. Should the first minister, by reason of death, recall, or resignation, become unable to execute the duties of their office, then the Speaker of Parliament shall become interim first minister

Frankly that seems too restrictive, no?

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

I would just say "delegation" in that case. "Fill in for" should be changed to "exercise."

The bit about 72 hours strikes me as along time to be without a president of Congress. In Frémont we allow the speaker to carry out the FM's procedural duties whenever the latter is unavailable (in essence whoever gets to it first), which I think is a good system and useful in situations where for instance a continuing resolution needs to be passed in less than 72 hours and the VP is unreachable.

More conceptually, I don't see why we need a vice president and a deputy president, but I don't have strong feelings about it either way.

Is this the relevant passage:

Section 5. Should the first minister, by reason of death, recall, or resignation, become unable to execute the duties of their office, then the Speaker of Parliament shall become interim first minister

Frankly that seems too restrictive, no?

No. The relevant language is in Article I and the Standing Orders for parliament.

The first minister shall be President of Parliament, and accordingly shall enjoy all the rights of membership thereof. The first minister and the whole body of Members shall together compose Parliament.

In the declared absence of the Speaker, or the undeclared absence of the same for a period exceeding seventy-two (72) hours, the First Minister shall assume the powers of the Speakership ...

So this amendment is functionally the FT system, with the difference that FT's standing orders also allow the FM to suspend the 72 hour requirement and assume the speaker's duties immediately.