What would it take for you to consider the United States a "fascist" state?

[EJ24]

What event or sequence of events would make the United States essentially a fascist state? Are we seeing the beginning of such now or is that hyperbole?

[Kyle Rittenhouse is a Political Prisoner]

People facing significant social sanction for not supporting the president would be an alarm bell. 
If corporations were releasing press statements about how they admire the President's actions all the time, if professors who didn't support him were getting harassed out of elite universities, if 90% of the media was voting for him in the fall and very clear about it, I would get the worry about an authoritarian state. Since this is the opposite of true, it's clearly just liberal pants-wetting.

[ND, SD, MT, WY, and ID statehood was and is unconstitutional]

We are literally seeing the beginning of it now.

[Badger]

People facing significant social sanction for not supporting the president would be an alarm bell. 
If corporations were releasing press statements about how they admire the President's actions all the time, if professors who didn't support him were getting harassed out of elite universities, if 90% of the media was voting for him in the fall and very clear about it, I would get the worry about an authoritarian state. Since this is the opposite of true, it's clearly just liberal pants-wetting.

If that it is where you draw that exceedingly low bar, this is your problem and lack of judgment, not "liberal pants wetting".

[Anni di ghiaccio]

People facing significant social sanction for not supporting the president would be an alarm bell. 
If corporations were releasing press statements about how they admire the President's actions all the time, if professors who didn't support him were getting harassed out of elite universities, if 90% of the media was voting for him in the fall and very clear about it, I would get the worry about an authoritarian state. Since this is the opposite of true, it's clearly just liberal pants-wetting.

If that it is where you draw that exceedingly low bar, this is your problem and lack of judgment, not "liberal pants wetting".

He's one of the laziest trolls I've seen yet. Another for the ignore list.

[Wrong about 2024 Ghost]

What event or sequence of events would make the United States essentially a fascist state? Are we seeing the beginning of such now or is that hyperbole?

We're well past the beginnings. The Republicans party under Donald Trump has eagerly gone all-in on fascism. Look at Donald's speech tonight. If you swap out the language and cultural references and keep only the political content, it would fit just fine in Hitler's Germany or Mussolini's Italy.

For the moment, we are an ailing democracy with a strong fascist party that wields a great deal of governmental power but is not in total control. We will become a fascist state when there are no longer meaningful limits on the Republican (fascist) Party's actions. And there aren't many left right now. The Trump administration mostly ignores the House and is enabled by the Senate. At the Supreme Court, Roberts does appear to care about rule of law and the future, but he's in a pretty weak position, particularly if the court is split 6-3 and he's no longer a swing vote.  Things currently look hopeful for at least some pushback and movement in the right direction, but there are absolutely no guarantees.

If Donald Trump (or someone with a similar anti-democratic, pro-fascist political agenda) remains in power and can effectively ignore Congress (no matter what the precise circumstances), then we've changed to being a fascist state. If we can restore rule of law across the board (which basically requires a Democratic trifecta in 2020 and a pro-rule of law supreme court) we have a path back to a successful democracy, I hope. Options between those two likely lead to some degree of collapse of the United States, be it break-up, cold civil war, hot civil war, coup, or straight-up societal, economic, or other collapse.

The next six months will tell us where we're likely headed.

[Kyle Rittenhouse is a Political Prisoner]

What event or sequence of events would make the United States essentially a fascist state? Are we seeing the beginning of such now or is that hyperbole?

We're well past the beginnings. The Republicans party under Donald Trump has eagerly gone all-in on fascism. Look at Donald's speech tonight. If you swap out the language and cultural references and keep only the political content, it would fit just fine in Hitler's Germany or Mussolini's Italy.

For the moment, we are an ailing democracy with a strong fascist party that wields a great deal of governmental power but is not in total control. We will become a fascist state when there are no longer meaningful limits on the Republican (fascist) Party's actions. And there aren't many left right now. The Trump administration mostly ignores the House and is enabled by the Senate. At the Supreme Court, Roberts does appear to care about rule of law and the future, but he's in a pretty weak position, particularly if the court is split 6-3 and he's no longer a swing vote.  Things currently look hopeful for at least some pushback and movement in the right direction, but there are absolutely no guarantees.

If Donald Trump (or someone with a similar anti-democratic, pro-fascist political agenda) remains in power and can effectively ignore Congress (no matter what the precise circumstances), then we've changed to being a fascist state. If we can restore rule of law across the board (which basically requires a Democratic trifecta in 2020 and a pro-rule of law supreme court) we have a path back to a successful democracy, I hope. Options between those two likely lead to some degree of collapse of the United States, be it break-up, cold civil war, hot civil war, coup, or straight-up societal, economic, or other collapse.

The next six months will tell us where we're likely headed.

Again, every elite university and every mainstream media organization is institutionally opposed to the President and openly supporting him is unacceptable in them. Having a President you dislike nominate judges you dislike isn't fascism.

[Kyle Rittenhouse is a Political Prisoner]

People facing significant social sanction for not supporting the president would be an alarm bell. 
If corporations were releasing press statements about how they admire the President's actions all the time, if professors who didn't support him were getting harassed out of elite universities, if 90% of the media was voting for him in the fall and very clear about it, I would get the worry about an authoritarian state. Since this is the opposite of true, it's clearly just liberal pants-wetting.

If that it is where you draw that exceedingly low bar, this is your problem and lack of judgment, not "liberal pants wetting".

The point here is that the totalitarian danger to the U.S isn't Trump's civic nationalism, but instead of the weird combination of white oikophobia and black ethnonationalism that our universities and our media are pushing. We have NYT published Pulitzer Prize winners who spent their college years as deranged and deeply dishonest black supremacists and who won the prize for their work of blood libel.

[Ferguson97]

If the US Supreme Court allows states to invalidate mail-in ballots, allowing Trump to steal the election.

[Wrong about 2024 Ghost]

Some indication that those using the term have any understanding of it would be a good start. It's gotten to the point where many of these people sound like Obama-era InfoWars listeners.

Definitions of fascism

Griffin argues that the above definition can be condensed into one sentence: "Fascism is a political ideology whose mythic core in its various permutations is a palingenetic form of populist ultra-nationalism." The word "palingenetic" in this case refers to notions of national rebirth.

A populist ultra-nationalist advocating national rebirth... what modern American leader could that possibly describe?

Here's another clue,
 

"Fascism is anti-Marxism which seeks to destroy the enemy by the evolvement of a radically opposed and yet related ideology and by the use of almost identical and yet typically modified methods, always, however, within the unyielding framework of national self-assertion and autonomy.

Perhaps someone can share with us the identity of the political party in the United States that raves about Marxism while constantly screaming "America First" as it attacks elections, pushes propaganda and tries to de-legitimatize elections?

If you'd prefer more detail,

  In his 1995 essay "Ur-Fascism", cultural theorist Umberto Eco lists fourteen general properties of fascist ideology. He argues that it is not possible to organise these into a coherent system, but that "it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it". He uses the term "Ur-fascism" as a generic description of different historical forms of fascism. The fourteen properties are as follows:

  "The Cult of Tradition", characterized by cultural syncretism, even at the risk of internal contradiction. When all truth has already been revealed by Tradition, no new learning can occur, only further interpretation and refinement.
    "The Rejection of modernism", which views the rationalistic development of Western culture since the Enlightenment as a descent into depravity. Eco distinguishes this from a rejection of superficial technological advancement, as many fascist regimes cite their industrial potency as proof of the vitality of their system.
    "The Cult of Action for Action's Sake", which dictates that action is of value in itself, and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.
    "Disagreement Is Treason" – Fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith.
    "Fear of Difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.
    "Appeal to a Frustrated Middle Class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.
    "Obsession with a Plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often combines an appeal to xenophobia with a fear of disloyalty and sabotage from marginalized groups living within the society (such as the German elite's 'fear' of the 1930s Jewish populace's businesses and well-doings; see also anti-Semitism). Eco also cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.
    Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak." On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will.
    "Pacifism is Trafficking with the Enemy" because "Life is Permanent Warfare" – there must always be an enemy to fight. Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to not build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war.
    "Contempt for the Weak", which is uncomfortably married to a chauvinistic popular elitism, in which every member of society is superior to outsiders by virtue of belonging to the in-group. Eco sees in these attitudes the root of a deep tension in the fundamentally hierarchical structure of fascist polities, as they encourage leaders to despise their underlings, up to the ultimate Leader who holds the whole country in contempt for having allowed him to overtake it by force.
    "Everybody is Educated to Become a Hero", which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. As Eco observes, "[t]he Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death."
    "Machismo", which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold "both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality."
    "Selective Populism" – The People, conceived monolithically, have a Common Will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the Leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of "no longer represent[ing] the Voice of the People."
    "Newspeak" – Fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.

What American political party whose members here have blue avatars does that sound like? I'll give you a hint - it's the one that currently looks like someone took Umberto Eco's list and tried to check off every item on it.

While there is a great deal of academic work done on fascism (and not all of it in complete agreement), anyone who says they cannot see the strongly fascist trend of the GOP under Donald Trump is either a liar or an idiot.

[dead0man]

the modern left hits at least 8 of the 14 things on the "List of Things to be Labeled a Fascist according to Umberto"

maybe, one could argue, Trump/Trump supporters hit more on Umberto's list, but do you really want to just barely be better than Trump?  How'd that work last Presidential election?

[dead0man]

also, from Ghost of Ruin's link

Some have argued that the terms fascism and fascist have become hopelessly vague since the World War II period, and that today it is little more than a pejorative used by supporters of various political views to insult their opponents. The word fascist is sometimes used to denigrate people, institutions, or groups that would not describe themselves as ideologically fascist, and that may not fall within the formal definition of the word. As a political epithet, fascist has been used in an anti-authoritarian sense to emphasize the common ideology of governmental suppression of individual freedom. In this sense, the word fascist is intended to mean oppressive, intolerant, chauvinist, genocidal, dictatorial, racist, or aggressive. George Orwell wrote in 1944:

   

...the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else ... Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathisers, almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’. That is about as near to a definition as this much-abused word has come.

[Doomer]

The current US President is a fascist.

Does that answer the question?

[Former President tack50]

As someone whose country spent 40 years under a fascist dictatorship; rest assured that the US are not close to becoming a fascist state.

Call me when one of the following happens:

a) The American version of the Enabling Act gets passed (ie Congress makes Trump or whoever, supreme leader with all powers of the state vested on him)

b) The American version of the March on Rome happens (ie a coup)

c) The 2nd American Civil War ends up with a fascist victory.

[Big Abraham]

A Fascist Party seizes control, suppresses all free elections and political dissent, makes the media subservient to the Party and state interest, and all constitutional "checks and balances" are removed to give the president the ability to make decisions without legislative or judicial override

Anyone saying "Trump is a fascist" or "we're already becoming/are a fascist state" is just using that word as a political pejorative and has absolutely no idea of what the historical reality and ideology of fascism entails. Any supposed similarities between Trump and Hitler/Mussolini are superficial, and could equally apply to any other president in recent memory

[dead0man]

First the US was a "3rd World Banana Republic", now we're "fascist".  What's next?



The stupid people on the left are every bit as stupid as the stupid people on the right.  You all should get together and compare notes, you have a lot in common.  You both hate things based on superficial aspects you don't really understand.

[The Free North]

We are literally seeing the beginning of it now.

-Further entrenchment of corporatist policies
-Eroding of civil liberties, rule of law, integrity of elections (can happen suddenly)
-Cult of personality
-Disregard for history and historic institutions in favor of 'new' or 'modern' forms of government that are presented as the only plausible way forward


Were getting there under Trump without question. The Dems have already killed of things like the filibuster so they're servicing further damage down the road. We should descend into full chaos by 2050.

[parochial boy]

Yeah, I think the fascist tag is hyperbolic in a way that isn't exactly helpful - especially as it gets the sort of eyeball rolling response you can see in this thread.

The US every definitely is experience a quite troublesome level of democratic backsliding - be it through attacks on media and academic freedom, the rule of law, judicial independence, the integrity of the electoral process. But there is a big distance between being a semi-democracy or even authoritarian state, and, you know, actual fascism.

[Meclazine for Israel]

The argument is null and tired.

Fascism was a unique political situation categorised predominantly by the situation in pre-WW2 Italy with Benito Mussolini.

The only political party which was interested in this setup was actually the US Democratic Party. They went to Italy in the 1930's and studied it because they were interested in implementing it in the USA.

It revolves around Government control of all institutions including the economic markets.

Donald Trump is into less Government interference and free market economy in the USA to let capitalism rule.

They are very opposite in nature.

The truth is this. Because "fascism" has such negative connotations in political arguments, some punters with lazy political arguments just throw the word around without a valid argument.

Trump is a nationalist populist, not an agent of fascism.

More to the point, he is a TV personality who found that he got an increase in sales from his brand when he said he was going to run for President.

I don't even think he thought he was going to become President. He was after increased sales in his private companies.

The first genuine business scoundrel-type with little political experience to become President.

[Wrong about 2024 Ghost]

The argument is null and tired.

Fascism was a unique political situation categorised predominantly by the situation in pre-WW2 Italy with Benito Mussolini.

The only political party which was interested in this setup was actually the US Democratic Party. They went to Italy in the 1930's and studied it because they were interested in implementing it in the USA.

It revolves around Government control of all institutions including the economic markets.

Donald Trump is into less Government interference and free market economy in the USA to let capitalism rule.

Donald Trump supports free markets in much the same way he supports law and order.

Donald Trump And The Fed Have ‘Ended The Free Market’
Trump Negotiations With U.S. Oil Signal a Sudden Shift From Free-Market Production
Donald Trump ditched free market ideology for nationalism — and it's working
Donald Trump’s contempt for the free market
Trump's War on Economic Freedom
Why free-market economists aren’t impressed with Trump’s deregulation efforts
The selective socialism of Donald Trump: Farmers, yes. Poor families, no.
President's Emerging Economic Policy: Picking Winners and Losers
Faced with the free market, Trump takes out the shackles

No matter how hard I look, I just can't seem to find the pony that the content of your post really suggests should be in there somewhere.

[Samof94]

As someone whose country spent 40 years under a fascist dictatorship; rest assured that the US are not close to becoming a fascist state.

Call me when one of the following happens:

a) The American version of the Enabling Act gets passed (ie Congress makes Trump or whoever, supreme leader with all powers of the state vested on him)

b) The American version of the March on Rome happens (ie a coup)

c) The 2nd American Civil War ends up with a fascist victory.

He did build statues of himself across Spain. His social views were closer to a Middle Eastern dictator than to any American politician.