College Decision problem

[It’s so Joever]

Hey so I’m kinda having trouble deciding between colleges and whether I should ED to one.
(as a HS Senior)
I think I will likely major in IR and am debating between whether it would be better for me to go to GW or American.
If possible, I kinda want to ED to one of them so I increase my chances of getting in/knowing earlier but I have to decide soon.
If possible, I would like to try to get some form of academic/merit-based aid but that’s not the biggest priority.

Anyone from Atlas attend or know people who attend here? If so, what do you think would be best, given the info? I’ve already talked with my counselor but I still have no idea.

(Further info: ACT 35, GPA: 4.42/3.77)

[John Dule]

I am going to give you the advice I wish I'd been given four years ago. Unless your family has multiple millions of dollars, DO NOT go straight to a four-year college right out of high school. The first two years of your university life will be spent taking general ed classes that you will likely have very little interest in, and these classes are offered at community college for literally 1/100th of the price you'd be paying at a university. If you are thinking about taking on debt to spend four years at a university, I would strongly recommend that you look at this as a viable alternative.

I know it's hard to look back on all the effort you put in for high school and toss it all away like this. And I know it's embarrassing to go to a community college-- I felt awful my first few weeks there. But in the long run, it is truly the only option that makes financial sense. And again, if you come from a family that owns a diamond mine in Guyana or something, disregard this post at your leisure.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

I agree fully with Dule here.  Without a full-ride scholarship (or something close), it makes no economic sense in attending a four-year school for the first two years. Your degree won't mention that you transferred in classes from elsewhere.

One of the greatest reasons for being quite well off economically despite my modest income is that I graduated with no student debt thanks to a combination of state schools being cheap when I went to school, decent levels of scholarship, and last but not least, parents who paid the difference. It's relatively easy to build wealth if you have no debt to pay down.

[Kingpoleon]

Apply to them, but see what kind of scholarship you can get. If it is not a full ride - give or take 2-3,000 dollars - then don’t go there for your first two years. If it is, then go right ahead. Exception if your parents are fairly wealthy and willing to make up the difference.

As for the differences between the two schools, it depends on what you want to do afterwards. If you’re interested in the Foreign Service, American University is certainly the university for civic/government minded students. Very politically active student body. I don’t know much about GW, so if anyone knows any specific pros/cons to it, feel free to share.

[ilikeverin]

GWU is hellishly expensive. With an ACT and GPA like that, you'd be a shoo-in for merit-based aid at many state schools. Go the cheaper route.

[John Dule]

GWU is hellishly expensive. With an ACT and GPA like that, you'd be a shoo-in for merit-based aid at many state schools. Go the cheaper route.

He should look into the viability of transfer programs if he goes this route or my route. Two years at GWU is much more manageable financially than four. If he plays his cards right, he can get a diploma from his preferred institution at half the price.

[It’s so Joever]

I am going to give you the advice I wish I'd been given four years ago. Unless your family has multiple millions of dollars, DO NOT go straight to a four-year college right out of high school. The first two years of your university life will be spent taking general ed classes that you will likely have very little interest in, and these classes are offered at community college for literally 1/100th of the price you'd be paying at a university. If you are thinking about taking on debt to spend four years at a university, I would strongly recommend that you look at this as a viable alternative.

I know it's hard to look back on all the effort you put in for high school and toss it all away like this. And I know it's embarrassing to go to a community college-- I felt awful my first few weeks there. But in the long run, it is truly the only option that makes financial sense. And again, if you come from a family that owns a diamond mine in Guyana or something, disregard this post at your leisure.

This is a good point.
I will talk with my parents since they are paying for at least some of my college and discuss with them.
I do appreciate the advice a lot.

[John Dule]

I am going to give you the advice I wish I'd been given four years ago. Unless your family has multiple millions of dollars, DO NOT go straight to a four-year college right out of high school. The first two years of your university life will be spent taking general ed classes that you will likely have very little interest in, and these classes are offered at community college for literally 1/100th of the price you'd be paying at a university. If you are thinking about taking on debt to spend four years at a university, I would strongly recommend that you look at this as a viable alternative.

I know it's hard to look back on all the effort you put in for high school and toss it all away like this. And I know it's embarrassing to go to a community college-- I felt awful my first few weeks there. But in the long run, it is truly the only option that makes financial sense. And again, if you come from a family that owns a diamond mine in Guyana or something, disregard this post at your leisure.

This is a good point.
I will talk with my parents since they are paying for at least some of my college and discuss with them.
I do appreciate the advice a lot.

No problem. A lot of community colleges are "feeder" schools for certain universities, and those universities give some priority to students transferring from those CCs as juniors. If possible, look into the feeder schools for GW and American; you'll have a great shot at getting in as a transfer by going that route so long as you keep your GPA up (and looking at your numbers so far, that should not be a problem).

[Donerail]

Disagree with the prevailing advice ITT — there are certain advantages of a four-year elite education that are more difficult to quantify but, imo, worth the cost. (Especially if your career goals involve some sort of policy work, where connections and generally being in DC is extraordinarily important.) I would suggest a less restrictive test: if you can go without taking on debt, then go. You don't need the full ride if your parents are decently well off (IIRC yours are some kind of med? and you mentioned that financial aid is not a big priority) and you can swing it — if they are offering to subsidize your education, take the money! That said, a lot of entry level DC jobs pay crap and you really do not want to be accumulating interest during that time, so do what you can to avoid debt.

You should be aware that your chosen schools have a bit of a reputation for catering to students who do not need aid at all. I received relatively poor financial aid offers when I applied, and GW in particular has a reputation as a school for the children of emirs and such. With your scores you could definitely get a big chunk of money somewhere — don't close that possibility early by EDing at GW.

Also, while both are excellent schools for international relations, I would definitely suggest broadening your search beyond the DC policy-focused universities. Allow me to serve as an example: as a longtime Atlas poster, I was confident that I would major in political science (or American's CLEG major) and immediately work in politics. As most college students do, I switched my major sophomore year and eventually graduated with a BA in something completely unrelated to what I entered intending to major in. While American & GW are great for the policy/government sphere of things, I didn't get the impression when I visited that either had particularly strong programs outside that realm.

With your GPA & ACT, I'd recommend applying broadly and not pigeonholing yourself into a specific career at this point. Part of college is having an opportunity to explore diverse areas of interest, meet interesting people who challenge your views, and grow as a person. I'd particularly encourage you to look at some of the top-ranked liberal arts schools (the Claremont Colleges and Oxy in California, Reed, Colorado College, Davidson, Carleton & Macalester in Minnesota, Grinnell, a bunch in Ohio, just to name a few). While I'm ultimately happy with where I chose for undergrad, if I could do it again I'd think more seriously about attending a smaller school in some out-of-the-way part of the country.

Name and prestige aren't everything, especially when you're looking at name and prestige through the narrow lens of poli sci/IR rankings. You're probably not looking for a book rec in your senior year, but Deresiewicz's "Excellent Sheep" is an excellent read and diagnoses a real problem in elite academia (I didn't attend an Ivy, but the zombie trudging from elite school to hedge fund was a common archetype). Feel free to PM if you have more questions — I've spent way too much time inside the elite American academia-industrial complex (and I'm still here, though in a different part of the country at an institution with a totally different set of neuroses) and have gone through the high-stakes admissions process twice now.

Final note: There are no "feeder" community colleges for GW and American, as they are private schools in DC and have no affiliation with other institutions in the way many public universities have feeders.

[It’s so Joever]

Alright I talked with my parents about some of these ideas....and they were a bit less than receptive.
They still really don’t want me to go to a community college for two years, even with the costs being significantly lower. I don’t know if it would be wise to disagree with them on this considering they are paying for a huge chunk of my education, although idk.

(FWIW, they have saved 120k already for my own college education and have pledged to help out even more as needed, I do trust them on this as they are close to paying off their mortgage and will have significantly more income afterwards.)
I’m still waiting for my SAT results before I make any strong decisions, but I have written out some of the essays/filled applications out.

[Sprouts Farmers Market ✘]

I had initially typed a reply to strongly disagree with the conventional wisdom provided, and the new information validates my original opinion even more. It's incredibly easy to take the community college position if you purely take a myopic view of dollars and cents, but in practice, I would never allow my own children to do something so foolish. Depends a bit on where you live to see how effective that strategy is.

If money were truly a concern, I would push you to Boulder which is every bit as good as these two specialty schools for a fraction of the price. Your position indicates that you should probably reach higher than that even if it might ultimately be unsuccessful. It sounds unlikely that you'll have more than mid-five figure debt in even the worst case scenario with rather strong potential prospects to overcome that (And more likely almost nothing). And this is all coming from someone with an extremely dim view on the future benefits of college education in this country.

Either choose a more well-rounded private if you can afford it or accept the supreme financial advantages of the rather good and extremely cheap public school. Don't get cute. Pick a place and network when you get there. Assume APs will make it more like <1 yr of Gen Ed.

[kcguy]

My own college experience was a long time ago, but here are a couple of thoughts:

• I changed majors halfway through my sophomore year, so the reason I picked my school became a bit less relevant.
• Because I changed majors, I wasn't on the same track as everyone else in my new major.  (I took some classes semesters ahead of my classmates and some a semester or two behind.)  If I have any regrets, it's that I didn't use my years in college to bond with the people in my major.  I think I missed a lot of networking opportunities.  Don't underestimate the importance of networking in any industry.  (There may be industries where that isn't true, but my branch of engineering relies a lot on internships for job placement, and I wasn't savvy enough by myself to work my way into those.)

[ilikeverin]

(FWIW, they have saved 120k already for my own college education and have pledged to help out even more as needed, I do trust them on this as they are close to paying off their mortgage and will have significantly more income afterwards.)

They should be giving you that money regardless of the college you go to. They shouldn't be holding it over you to force you to attend a school that will impress their friends! If you don't use it for your education, you can use it to start a retirement fund or a down payment fund.

I'm not sure I'm all on board the community college track, just because it's helpful to make friends to start at a four-year institution at the same time as everyone else, but, again - you're a good fit for merit-based aid at many public institutions. Find a big state school with a good Honors College. (I vote for my alma mater, Michigan State, but many have one, including my current institution!) You'll be surrounded by other high-achievers who realized it's better to save a buck than pay out the nose for an elite institution.

[vitoNova]

American has a top-notch conflict resolution program that dwarfs anything that Gdub or Georgetown has to offer.  70% former Peace Corps volunteers that are committed to globalism and international development.   They go straight to State or USAID.

But yeah, I agree with the rest.  

Unless your parents are paying 100% tuition, go to a state school.  

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

A lot depends on how important networking/social interaction is to you and your chosen major/future career.  From the POV of college costs alone, the community college route is the best, and it won't affect the diploma you get from your four year school.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

I went to GWU and loved it. It's a great school, although you really don't need to go for ED if you can get a decent SAT and GPA, which you have. Feel free to DM me about anything.

(Also, screw AU.)

[Kingpoleon]

As should be noted, my advice was a bit hesitant of the idea of your sole option being to attend CC for two years. If you’re socially comfortable with it, then by all means go to American or GW. I would advise you to look at other schools - John Hopkins, Georgetown, Stanford, and Princeton are top notch for IR, and you could feasibly get into them.

I would also advise looking at some elite, but less traditionally elite schools. Syracuse University, the University of Florida, Washington University in St. Louis, Tulane University, and Boston University are all top tier in the field, but they provide alternative places to Washington D. C.

[Orwell]

Bruh don't go to college bro just go into the trades bro!

[HillGoose]

go to the University of Kinshasa and study to become a Central African warlord.

[It’s so Joever]

go to the University of Kinshasa and study to become a Central African warlord.

The true advice always takes a few days to be posted.

[John Dule]

For the record, I was saying you should go to a CC and then transfer after two years. But whatever you do, avoid graduating with debt.

[Del Tachi]

Listen kid, I don't even like you that much but the prevailing "wisdom" that you waste your first two years at a CC is such a bad take (even by Atlas standards) that I have to intervene on your behalf. 

There's a reason very few CC transfers end up working at K Street think tanks, becoming FSOs, or attending competitively-ranked law schools (which could all be likely future paths for you, IIBH).  This isn't a negative indication of their intelligence or aptitude, but it's because they don't benefit from the opportunities and networks that come with attending a school with better-connected faculty, students and alumni.  A big fish in a small pond still has to live in the small pond, and even if you  transfer-in to a great school after CC you'll still be two years behind on the network-building of your classmates.  Also, because GW/AU are private, there's no gaurantee that they'll accept your transfer credits as counting towards your degree.  And that's to say nothing of how boring and unchallenging two years of GE classes at a CC would be.  If you have to take these classes, then why not take them with instructors and classmates who will be a marked improvement over what your high school can offer?

GW and American are two schools that cater to a very specific type of student - those who want to work in the DC policy world.  You'll have a great opportunity to work and network within this community as a student there, but you're setting yourself up to be somewhat of a one-trick pony.  Their programs outside of politics/IR are not really that well-known or reputable; they (outside of GW medical) are not big research schools; and both schools have more part-time, postgraduate students then full-time undergrads.  A name-brand state school (Boulder, UMich, UCB) or a more comprehensive private institution (Cornell, Stanford, UPenn) are going to let you pursue additional interests while gaining exposure to similarly (if not more) elite networks as GW/AU.

I wouldn't think about applying Early Decision.  The point of ED is for less-than-stellar  applicants to demonstrate an immutable preference for a specific school and (if accepted) *bind themselves to enroll.  Schools take advantage of this by being more stingy with financial aid offers for ED admits (while using the money they've saved to compete with other schools for applicants applying regular decision).  If you apply ED, you are inviting GW, American or whoever to skull-drag you into paying way more than you should.  Your credentials are more than competitive...apply regular decision and enjoy the ride of having schools compete for you. 

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

^^^^
I tried the Community College route. I interned for a political consultant, met Trump, then basically slowly flamed out over the next three years. Listen to Del Tachi on this one.

[Starry Eyed Jagaloon]

GW and American are two schools that cater to a very specific type of student - those who want to work in the DC policy world.  You'll have a great opportunity to work and network within this community as a student there, but you're setting yourself up to be somewhat of a one-trick pony.  

I would argue that they offer slightly more than that. If you're looking at law school or really any postgraduate program, both GW and AU offer a solid undergrad program plus unbeatable connections.

If you want to do anything in policy/law/government/international affairs/etc., doing undergradin DC offers quite the competitive advantage. GW and AU (plus Howard, Georgetown, and UMD) give you access to internships on the Hill, K street, and dozens of federal agencies you can't get anywhere else. If you do enough of these, your resume is way more impressive than someone who just has an undergrad degree from a non-DC top 20 school. I cannot underemphasize how big of a deal this is.

When you look at where people at top lobbying firms, on the hill, at State, at think tanks, and at top law firms did undergrad, they often have more GW and AU grads than Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford.

[Del Tachi]

GW and American are two schools that cater to a very specific type of student - those who want to work in the DC policy world.  You'll have a great opportunity to work and network within this community as a student there, but you're setting yourself up to be somewhat of a one-trick pony.  

I would argue that they offer slightly more than that. If you're looking at law school or really any postgraduate program, both GW and AU offer a solid undergrad program plus unbeatable connections.

If you want to do anything in policy/law/government/international affairs/etc., doing undergradin DC offers quite the competitive advantage. GW and AU (plus Howard, Georgetown, and UMD) give you access to internships on the Hill, K street, and dozens of federal agencies you can't get anywhere else. If you do enough of these, your resume is way more impressive than someone who just has an undergrad degree from a non-DC top 20 school. I cannot underemphasize how big of a deal this is.

When you look at where people at top lobbying firms, on the hill, at State, at think tanks, and at top law firms did undergrad, they often have more GW and AU grads than Harvard/Yale/Princeton/Stanford.

I don't disagree with you.  AU and GW grads are definitely well-represented in the D.C. policy world, but what about outside of that?  I bet well over 50% of the AU/GW alumni base remains in the D.C. area, and it's very strange for a highly-selective private university to have such a small geographic footprint.   AU or GW credentials aren't going to disadvantage anyone applying for most law or grad schools, but there's going to be almost zero graduates from GW/AU that go-on to study things like medicine, business, computer science, or accounting.  Such a narrow breadth of interests among the students/faculty  just seems like it would take a lot out of the university experience.  

Plus....do you really want to go to school with 25,000 kids who all think they're the next Josh Lyman?  lol