More proof that Republicans were not more pro-civil rights than the Democrats pre-1964
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  More proof that Republicans were not more pro-civil rights than the Democrats pre-1964
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Author Topic: More proof that Republicans were not more pro-civil rights than the Democrats pre-1964  (Read 2038 times)
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HenryWallaceVP
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« Reply #25 on: September 24, 2020, 11:05:55 PM »

Well, I don't have much of a response other than to say that you have explained your side well, but I personally interpret the history differently. There's one other thing from the Reactionary Enlightenment article though that I thought you might find interesting. Earlier, you mentioned a sort of "Con-Labor/Radical versus lib political alignment" and the concept of a "red tory" to explain why the Republican party at its founding included a mix of so-called conservatives and socialists. The Reactionary Enlightenment article mentions that dynamic as well, but reverses its application.

According to the author, the Northern abolitionists like Garrison were disciples of Locke and "traditional liberalism" who relied heavily on ideas like the doctrine of consent, while Fitzhugh and the Southern reactionaries ascribed to a form of "Tory socialism" dependent on a "divinely ordained 'controlling power.'" These "feudal socialists" lambasted the North for its "anarchy", while also "lashing out at Northern capitalism in the spirit of Disraeli and Carlyle."

He also agrees with you that the Southern reactionaries were ideologically bankrupt and mixed all sorts of contradictory and inconsistent strains of thought to try to justify slavery, but still thinks they deserve study instead of being forgotten as they have because they "dared to insist that life can be lived in an utterly different way from the way that Hamilton and Jefferson both agreed to live it."
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #26 on: September 24, 2020, 11:41:17 PM »

Well, I don't have much of a response other than to say that you have explained your side well, but I personally interpret the history differently. There's one other thing from the Reactionary Enlightenment article though that I thought you might find interesting. Earlier, you mentioned a sort of "Con-Labor/Radical versus lib political alignment" and the concept of a "red tory" to explain why the Republican party at its founding included a mix of so-called conservatives and socialists. The Reactionary Enlightenment article mentions that dynamic as well, but reverses its application.

According to the author, the Northern abolitionists like Garrison were disciples of Locke and "traditional liberalism" who relied heavily on ideas like the doctrine of consent, while Fitzhugh and the Southern reactionaries ascribed to a form of "Tory socialism" dependent on a "divinely ordained 'controlling power.'" These "feudal socialists" lambasted the North for its "anarchy", while also "lashing out at Northern capitalism in the spirit of Disraeli and Carlyle."

He also agrees with you that the Southern reactionaries were ideologically bankrupt and mixed all sorts of contradictory and inconsistent strains of thought to try to justify slavery, but still thinks they deserve study instead of being forgotten as they have because they "dared to insist that life can be lived in an utterly different way from the way that Hamilton and Jefferson both agreed to live it."

Studied in the same way one should study Mein Kampf maybe, for the soul purpose of learning what to avoid in the future.

I have a difficult time accepting any narrative the incorporates a criticism of "Northern Capitalism" that then fails to account for the fact that Northern Capitalism was not lassiez Faire, but nationalist in its basis. This linkage between business interests (most of them) and protectionism would last for decades, but it is not just the protectionism. That is why it is important to consider Carey and the actual economic philosophy of Republicans under Lincoln especially.

They regarded themselves as working to overcome British economic dominance and they loathed their free trade economic model. They also blamed Britain and free trade for the South, for slavery and for the rebellion.

I also have a hard time seeing the planter class as being part of a red tory model when they don't believe in contemporary tory economic policy, post Peel anyway. Britain's economic policy derives from the dominance of the Liberal Party in this period. That is why it just sounds like so much Southern grasping to anything that might hold their weight, from falling into that abyss.

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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2020, 08:28:13 PM »

Re: Fitzhugh, it's worth noting that while yes, he is indicative of the reactionary paternalism of the Southern planter class in many respects, he is also a serious outlier: someone like Jefferson Davis would never agree with Fitzhugh's ultimate contention that race is unimportant and 19/20 white people should be slaves as well. Interestingly, he does address (actual) socialism in Cannibals All!, arguing essentially that the socialists were right about the diagnosis, but not the prescription: capitalism is a failure, but it is slavery, and not communism, that is the natural state of man and the "end" of history.
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Southern Senator North Carolina Yankee
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« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2020, 09:26:44 PM »

Re: Fitzhugh, it's worth noting that while yes, he is indicative of the reactionary paternalism of the Southern planter class in many respects, he is also a serious outlier: someone like Jefferson Davis would never agree with Fitzhugh's ultimate contention that race is unimportant and 19/20 white people should be slaves as well. Interestingly, he does address (actual) socialism in Cannibals All!, arguing essentially that the socialists were right about the diagnosis, but not the prescription: capitalism is a failure, but it is slavery, and not communism, that is the natural state of man and the "end" of history.

Calls to mind all those times I have compared the CSA to North Korea and the Soviet Union.

I struggle to understand why hypocrisy and expediency driven inconsistency is so difficult to digest in the context of these discussions.

Most Planters were not Hobbesian Tories and while they may have shared certain Cavalier mindset, you have 200 years of history in between these events and furthermore the Glorious Revolution and also the American Revolution. There are discussions IIRC about whether or not Locke himself justified slavery at one point. It is not inaccurate to say that everyone in America is a liberal in the context of a certain point in English history and yes that would include the planter class as well, and the very reason why that was not universally applied or should I say the hypocrisy is explained away is on the basis of expediency and then racial supremacy, from which you get the "slavery is a positive for the slave" argument that 1850's Southern politicians had come to traffic in.

I am not an expert on this Fitzhugh but it seems like his statements aren't really well attuned to the values and beliefs of people in the period in question.
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