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  S.20.3-19: Chamber Sacrosanctity Resolution (Passed)
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Author Topic: S.20.3-19: Chamber Sacrosanctity Resolution (Passed)  (Read 547 times)
diptheriadan
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« on: September 12, 2020, 06:35:32 pm »
« edited: September 25, 2020, 11:53:31 am by diptheriadan »

Quote
A RESOLUTION
condemning President Pericles

Whereas, the autonomy of the Chamber of Delegates from outside intervention is sacrosanct;

Whereas, President Pericles has obviously and verifiably targeted a member of this Chamber;


Be it resolved, that the Chamber of Delegates:

1. Officially condemns President Pericles for his actions

Sponsor: diptheriadan

Minimum 48 hours to debate
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diptheriadan
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« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2020, 06:59:21 pm »
« Edited: September 16, 2020, 04:37:56 am by diptheriadan »

The purpose of this resolution is twofold:

1) It condemns Pericles for being... unkind, we shall say for the sake of formality, to our Speaker, tmthforu94.

2) It establishes precedent for rules of conduct for how Delegates are to be treated and how Delegates treat each other, so as to not interfere with their work. In this case, the concern is mainly to due with intimidation.

Note: This does not in and of itself establishes those rules in specific and written form, though if such a thing is desired I would be more than willing to do this, it merely acknowledges that there are proper and improper ways to interact with those in power as to make them accountable only to their constituents.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2020, 12:02:50 am »

Just a note, as Deputy Speaker, Dip will be managing all of this resolution. I will be abstaining from debate and any votes that occur due to a conflict of interest.
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Senator LouisvilleThunder
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« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2020, 12:05:03 am »

Freedom resolution!
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diptheriadan
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« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2020, 10:23:32 pm »
« Edited: September 14, 2020, 10:35:16 pm by diptheriadan »

Proposing an amendment

Quote
A RESOLUTION
condemning President Pericles and Attorney General fhtagn

Whereas, the autonomy of the Chamber of Delegates from outside intervention is sacrosanct;

Whereas, President Pericles has obviously and verifiably targeted a member of this Chamber both Pericles and fhtagn have abused members of this Chamber unnecessarily and on false grounds;


Be it resolved, that the Chamber of Delegates:

1. Officially condemns President Pericles for his actions

2. Officially condemns fhtagn for her actions

24 hours for objections.

This amendment was recommended by DTC, and, as it keeps with the goal of and reasoning behind this resolution, I agree with him.
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Stuart's Mom
fhtagn
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« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2020, 10:41:43 pm »

There is a massive difference between what I said to DTC and how Pericles treated tmth. I'll even quote what I said, with context, here:

I'm concerned with the current language. Many employers avoid paying overtime at all costs - I have a suspicion that larger companies will get around this by just hiring more people and limiting everyone to 35 hours/week; it is a more cost effective action than paying overtime.

While perhaps good for unemployment, these lost wages could cause much hardship for working families. Assuming someone is making the minimum wage ($11 federally) and working full-time, that would result in a reduction of $2,860 annually (before taxes).

The 40 hour workweek is archaic and counterproductive. The extra hour in every day is often not utilized efficiently because there are diminishing returns to work. I believe that we should reduce the workweek to 35 hours so that people have more time to be able to care for their family and pursue other life goals. People who really need to work will be able to benefit from overtime.

Except most jobs where people are absolutely working extra for the money don't allow overtime unless absolutely necessary since it costs their employer too much to pay the overtime rates. All this does it hurt actual working class people, especially those that work for an hourly rate, as it means full time workers get less hours than usual, and part time workers get cut even more so they don't risk accidentally qualifying for full time.

This will give those workers more time to work a second job then.
It defeats the purpose of this bill if people have to pick up a second job to make up for it, as they'll still be working 40+ hours per week. I imagine just about everyone would prefer doing one job at 40 hours a week as opposed to one at 30-35 and the other at 5-10 hours.


Many people will still be able to make enough at 35 hours. For the ones that do not, they can work a second job to supplement their income. People will be more productive at work/hour in a 7 hour workday because they will have more sleep and more time to pursue other interests leading to a happier life. This will also encourage entrepreneurship which has steadily gone down in the past 20 years.

Forcing people who need money the most to work two jobs. Real smart move.

Always nice to see Labor Party officeholders admit they don't care about workers.




At no point was anything I said there "abusive". But it is funny to see that DTC is still mad for no valid reason.
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Stuart's Mom
fhtagn
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« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2020, 11:57:41 pm »

Would love to hear the logic by dip for how he can agree my comment was even remotely "abusing a member of the Chamber unnecessarily and on false grounds", and how he feels it is even on the same level as what Pericles did to tmth.

Would also love to hear why DTC couldn't be bothered to submit the amendment himself.
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reagente
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2020, 01:58:01 am »

I object to the amendment - I don't think what Fhtagn did compares with Pericles.
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diptheriadan
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« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2020, 02:40:19 am »


I will respond to you however I see fit, especially when you are proving my statement is correct.

But hey, I can go with racism and misogyny from Labor officeholders too if you'd like.

It was actually this that I had in mind when I backed the idea.

As I said before, one of the purposes of this resolution was to establish that there are proper and improper ways to interact with a legislator-- the defining feature of improper actions being those that are or can be construed as intimidating or coercive. This, I believe, fits that standard to a T, as it is literally a threat that does not pertain, in any way, to the discussion at hand or what DTC said in the thread.

EDIT: As for the reason why DTC himself didn't propse it, it was a simply mix-up. I thought he was going to, he thought I was going to, given the fact that it was late and the bill hadn't had significant discussion, I decided to pull the trigger and do it instead of waiting for him.
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diptheriadan
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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2020, 02:45:45 am »
« Edited: September 15, 2020, 04:54:56 am by diptheriadan »

Opening a vote on the amendment, please vote AYE, NAY, or ABSTAIN

Quote
A RESOLUTION
condemning President Pericles and Attorney General fhtagn

Whereas, the autonomy of the Chamber of Delegates from outside intervention is sacrosanct;

Whereas, President Pericles has obviously and verifiably targeted a member of this Chamber both Pericles and fhtagn have abused members of this Chamber unnecessarily and on false grounds;


Be it resolved, that the Chamber of Delegates:

1. Officially condemns President Pericles for his actions

2. Officially condemns fhtagn for her actions

EDIT: Vote halted for now. I believe I misread the rules regarding amendments. My apologies. ~18 Hours remaining for objections.
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Stuart's Mom
fhtagn
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« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2020, 10:08:01 am »

I will respond to you however I see fit, especially when you are proving my statement is correct.

But hey, I can go with racism and misogyny from Labor officeholders too if you'd like.

It was actually this that I had in mind when I backed the idea.

As I said before, one of the purposes of this resolution was to establish that there are proper and improper ways to interact with a legislator-- the defining feature of improper actions being those that are or can be construed as intimidating or coercive. This, I believe, fits that standard to a T, as it is literally a threat that does not pertain, in any way, to the discussion at hand or what DTC said in the thread.

EDIT: As for the reason why DTC himself didn't propse it, it was a simply mix-up. I thought he was going to, he thought I was going to, given the fact that it was late and the bill hadn't had significant discussion, I decided to pull the trigger and do it instead of waiting for him.

And what I said was in response to his own inappropriate behavior:

Forcing people who need money the most to work two jobs. Real smart move.

Always nice to see Labor Party officeholders admit they don't care about workers.




You will not respond to me in this tone. You will respond to me with calm, reasoned responses when you talk to me.


You really should consider context...
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diptheriadan
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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2020, 05:11:30 am »

Upon further review, I no longer believe that fhtagn's comments fit my criteria for inclusion in this resolution. While her comments were unkind, they pale in comparison to Pericles's. I believed that then and I believe that now. My reasons for including her was because of the 2nd reason I laid out:

Quote
2) It establishes precedent for rules of conduct for how Delegates are to be treated and how Delegates treat each other, so as to not interfere with their work. In this case, the concern is mainly to due with intimidation.

Note: This does not in and of itself establishes those rules in specific and written form, though if such a thing is desired I would be more than willing to do this, it merely acknowledges that there are proper and improper ways to interact with those in power as to make them accountable only to their constituents.

While her comments were coercive in tone, the goal was plainly stated in those comments. It wasn't to force DTC to vote a certain way or to offer an amendment or anything that would make him feel especially accountable to her and not the electorate as a whole. It was to speak more freely to him. It's for this reason why I plan to vote NAY on the amendment here shortly when I call the vote and I encourage my fellow delegates to do so as well.

By grouping fhtagn's comments in with Pericles's, it at once bluntens the severity of Pericles's comments as well as exaggerating fhagn's far beyond what they actually were. They were mean, no doubt about it, but to condemn her for them would open up a whole can of worms that might very well result in condemnations being handed out to anyone saying anything every remotely intimidating or mean; a voter vowing to vote against anyone who votes for some bill, as an example, or a delegate stating that an amendment passing would result in them voting against an otherwise good bill. The only way for the idea I stated above (in my...submission statement, I guess you could call it) would be for it to be specific and precise, and her inclusion doesn't fit that, and it's my fault entirely for not thinking the matter over entirely. As well, I think I owe fhtagn and tmth an apology, doing what I did was wrong, but moreover stupid and foolhardy. 
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diptheriadan
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« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2020, 05:12:43 am »

Opening a vote on the amendment, please vote AYE, NAY, or ABSTAIN

Quote
A RESOLUTION
condemning President Pericles and Attorney General fhtagn

Whereas, the autonomy of the Chamber of Delegates from outside intervention is sacrosanct;

Whereas, President Pericles has obviously and verifiably targeted a member of this Chamber both Pericles and fhtagn have abused members of this Chamber unnecessarily and on false grounds;


Be it resolved, that the Chamber of Delegates:

1. Officially condemns President Pericles for his actions

2. Officially condemns fhtagn for her actions

EDIT: Vote halted for now. I believe I misread the rules regarding amendments. My apologies. ~18 Hours remaining for objections.

Seeing as the 24 hours have elapsed, I am resuming the vote.
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reagente
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« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2020, 05:25:37 am »

nay
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diptheriadan
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« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2020, 05:27:39 am »

NAY
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Unpolled Amash Voter for Trump
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« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2020, 05:57:19 am »

Fhtagn’s comments were not on the same level as Pericles. She should not be grouped in with Pericles, but her words were unnecessarily inflammatory. There is a way people will talk to me in this chamber and I will not allow people to be dismissive of me when they talk to me.

Nay, but fhtagn words should be condemned in different wording.
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KoopaDaQuick
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« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2020, 06:52:37 am »

Present
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Delegate Weatherboy
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« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2020, 12:58:45 pm »

Abstain
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thumb21
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« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2020, 06:42:36 pm »

Nay
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diptheriadan
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« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2020, 06:44:46 pm »

The amendment has enough votes to fail, Delegates have 24 hours to change their votes.
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diptheriadan
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« Reply #20 on: September 19, 2020, 05:06:09 am »

With 4 NAYs and 2 ABSTAINS, the amendment fails.
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reagente
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« Reply #21 on: September 19, 2020, 02:22:08 pm »

I'm not sure this is much more to discuss with this, so I motion for a vote.
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diptheriadan
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« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2020, 07:59:01 pm »

I'm not sure this is much more to discuss with this, so I motion for a vote.

Motion has been recognized, 24 hours for objections.
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diptheriadan
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« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2020, 05:24:01 am »

A final vote has started, please vote AYE, NAY or ABSTAIN.
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Unpolled Amash Voter for Trump
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« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2020, 07:04:45 am »

Aye
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