S.20.3-8: Protecting our History Act (Law'd)
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  S.20.3-8: Protecting our History Act (Law'd)
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Author Topic: S.20.3-8: Protecting our History Act (Law'd)  (Read 1317 times)
tmthforu94
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« on: August 16, 2020, 01:52:36 PM »
« edited: September 08, 2020, 04:55:53 PM by tmthforu94 »

Quote
AN ACT
to protect statues of historical figures in the South

Section 1 (Title & Definitions)
i. The title of this act shall be, the “Protecting Our History"

Section 2 (Protecting Statues)
i. Anyone who takes down or participates the vandalism of a statue of a historical figure will be fined $500 for destroying public property.
ii. Police departments in jurisdictions where a historical statue is vandalized will be compensated $250.

Section 3 (Implementation)
i. This legislation shall come into effect immediately upon signature by the Governor.
Sponsor: DTC

Minimum 48 hours for debate. The sponsor is invited to advocate for the bill.
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Holy Unifying Centrist
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« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2020, 01:56:10 PM »

I'm very concerned about people tearing down statues in the south. While I may agree on some confederate soldier statues being torn down, it should be done by a vote of the public as opposed to vigilante justice. It's a slippery slope to allow people to tear down confederate statues, as some other anarchists have chosen to tear down statues of Jefferson and Grant. I want to dissuade anarchists from doing this by increasing fines, as well as giving funding to police departments in places where statues are torn down. While the second part may seem weird, it discourages the anarchists because many of them are not discouraged by fines but do not want to see police funding be increased.
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reagente
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« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2020, 02:01:26 PM »

I support this legislation. Statues, if they are removed at all, should be removed by the democratic process - not by vandals.
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Spark
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« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2020, 02:38:08 PM »

I support the peaceful and legal process of removing statues. If the people approve of it, then so be it. It must be lawful. I commend this legislation.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2020, 11:50:48 AM »

I agree that destroying public property should not be tolerated. I don't agree with the regional government compensating local police departments for a decision that is being made at a local level, but would support the compensation if there is a regional mandate on statues....which is what I am proposing we do. The best way to protect the statues of Confederate historical figures, as is the intent of the bill, is to move them out of public parks/areas.

Confederate statues do not belong in our parks and out in public. I believe this is an important decision the regional government should lead on, rather than take the passive approach of punting the ball on the issue and leaving it to the local governments - I find that weak since we don't even have local governments in Atlasia who could act on it, aside from Lumine writing a GM story. These statues are a symbol of racism and represent people who sought to tear our country apart so that they could keep their slaves. The intent of these statues was never to honor and remember our history, but rather as a symbol of white supremacy and of our racist past. 538 recently published an opinion piece that I believe perfectly sums up why they don't belong:

Quote
An overwhelming majority of Confederate memorials weren’t erected in the years directly following the Civil War. Instead, most were put up decades later. Nor were they built just to commemorate fallen generals and soldiers; they were installed as symbols of white supremacy during periods of U.S. history when Black Americans’ civil rights were aggressively under attack. In total, at least 830 such monuments were constructed across the U.S, according to the Southern Poverty Law Center, which maintains a comprehensive database of Confederate monuments and symbol
Source: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/confederate-statues/

This amendment moves all public monuments to museums/battle sites so that they can be better protected and used as part of understanding the true history of the Civil War. This protects property rights of those who have statues on private land and ensures anyone who vandalizes said property receives proper punishment. As a region, we don't have a great history on this issue. We are the only democratically elected body of this region - it is our responsibility to take action.This is an opportunity for us to do better.

Quote
AN ACT
to protect statues of historical figures in the South

Section 1 (Title & Definitions)
i. The title of this act shall be, the “Protecting Our History"

Section 2 (Protecting Statues)
i. All statues on public land memorializing Confederate historical figures shall be moved to museums or Civil War battle sites.
ii. Anyone who takes down or participates in taking down a statue of a historical figure will be fined $500 for destroying public property. Citizens may choose to take down any additional statues only by a ballot referendum in an election.
iii. Police departments in jurisdictions where a historical statue is taken down as directed by the regional government will be compensated $250.

Section 3 (Implementation)
i. This legislation shall come into effect immediately upon signature by the Governor.
24 hours for objections.
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thumb21
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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2020, 07:21:15 PM »

I think that current laws against damaging public property are sufficient, I don't see why this bill is needed.
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reagente
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« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2020, 10:32:08 AM »

I'll object, only because I'd like the issue of Confederate Statutes to be separate from this, since many statutes that do not have anything to do with the Confederacy are being targeted by vandals.

Also I think DTC is right that these vandals would likely only be discouraged if the police got more funding - especially now that crowdfunding will allow people to pay off these fines (unless they are prohibitively high).

I encourage tmthforu94 to propose a separate bill regarding removing Confederate statues, since that's a worthwhile discussion to have.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2020, 11:05:39 AM »

The objection is noted. I rule the amendment as germane - the intent of this bill is to "protect statues of historical figures in the South." While not every single case, Confederate statues are the primary target of recent vandalisms. Moving them into museums and out of common public areas is a way to protect and preserve them in the future. The bill as it currently stands wouldn't permit the regional government to address the issue going forward (without a repeal/amendment to this bill) so I hope that is something that will be taken into consideration.



A vote has started on the below amendment (changes in bold). Please vote AYE, NAY or ABSTAIN.

Quote
AN ACT
to protect statues of historical figures in the South

Section 1 (Title & Definitions)
i. The title of this act shall be, the “Protecting Our History"

Section 2 (Protecting Statues)
i. All statues on public land memorializing Confederate historical figures shall be moved to museums or Civil War battle sites.
ii. Anyone who takes down or participates in taking down a statue of a historical figure will be fined $500 for destroying public property. Citizens may choose to take down any additional statues only by a ballot referendum in an election.
iii. Police departments in jurisdictions where a historical statue is taken down as directed by the regional government will be compensated $250.

Section 3 (Implementation)
i. This legislation shall come into effect immediately upon signature by the Governor.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2020, 11:06:00 AM »

Aye
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reagente
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« Reply #9 on: August 19, 2020, 11:38:45 AM »

nay
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Holy Unifying Centrist
DTC
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« Reply #10 on: August 19, 2020, 11:44:45 AM »

Nay

I'll object, only because I'd like the issue of Confederate Statutes to be separate from this, since many statutes that do not have anything to do with the Confederacy are being targeted by vandals.

Also I think DTC is right that these vandals would likely only be discouraged if the police got more funding - especially now that crowdfunding will allow people to pay off these fines (unless they are prohibitively high).

I encourage tmthforu94 to propose a separate bill regarding removing Confederate statues, since that's a worthwhile discussion to have.


I agree with everything in this post.
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President Punxsutawney Phil
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« Reply #11 on: August 19, 2020, 05:35:34 PM »

Nay
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thumb21
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« Reply #12 on: August 20, 2020, 02:28:47 PM »

Nay
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #13 on: August 20, 2020, 03:31:01 PM »

The amendment has enough votes to fail, Delegates have 24 hours to change their votes.
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Unconditional Surrender Truman
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« Reply #14 on: August 20, 2020, 03:51:32 PM »

Probably y'all should clarify that you're criminalizing vandalism, not, you know, temporarily taking down a statute for maintenance.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2020, 01:27:05 PM »

My last amendment hasn't technically failed yet, but assuming there isn't a mass shift in perception in the next two hours, going to go ahead and offer another amendment that addresses the valid point Truman made (thank you). Now, this amendment would also carry the penalties for not just tearing down a statue, but also defacing it in any way. I'm not sure if that is the sponsor's intent, if not, I will withdraw and we can come up with alternative language. This is just all I can think of right now, so open to suggestions!

Quote
AN ACT
to protect statues of historical figures in the South

Section 1 (Title & Definitions)
i. The title of this act shall be, the “Protecting Our History"

Section 2 (Protecting Statues)
i. Anyone who takes down or participates in taking down the vandalism of a statue of a historical figure will be fined $500 for destroying public property. Citizens may choose to permanently take down a statue only by a ballot referendum in an election.
ii. Police departments in jurisdictions where a historical statue is taken down will be compensated $250.

Section 3 (Implementation)
i. This legislation shall come into effect immediately upon signature by the Governor.
24 hours for objection.
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Spark
Spark498
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« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2020, 01:28:23 PM »

My last amendment hasn't technically failed yet, but assuming there isn't a mass shift in perception in the next two hours, going to go ahead and offer another amendment that addresses the valid point Truman made (thank you). Now, this amendment would also carry the penalties for not just tearing down a statue, but also defacing it in any way. I'm not sure if that is the sponsor's intent, if not, I will withdraw and we can come up with alternative language. This is just all I can think of right now, so open to suggestions!

Quote
AN ACT
to protect statues of historical figures in the South

Section 1 (Title & Definitions)
i. The title of this act shall be, the “Protecting Our History"

Section 2 (Protecting Statues)
i. Anyone who takes down or participates in taking down the vandalism of a statue of a historical figure will be fined $500 for destroying public property. Citizens may choose to permanently take down a statue only by a ballot referendum in an election.
ii. Police departments in jurisdictions where a historical statue is taken down will be compensated $250.

Section 3 (Implementation)
i. This legislation shall come into effect immediately upon signature by the Governor.
24 hours for objection.


I think this is a sensible amendment so I support.
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Holy Unifying Centrist
DTC
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« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2020, 02:09:39 PM »
« Edited: August 21, 2020, 02:23:59 PM by DTC »

I support Tmth's amendment that addresses Truman's concerns. I believe the change in language makes this bill better.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2020, 05:25:34 PM »

My first amendment fails, the objection period for amendment #2 continues.
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reagente
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« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2020, 07:08:19 PM »

Can someone clarify if the amendment means that police departments will receive $250 for each act of vandalism, or if they will receive $250 if a locality votes to remove their statue?
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2020, 09:53:00 PM »

I actually may have completely misread this section - I thought the compensation was meant to compensate departments for the time and resources used to take down a statue that is voted to be removed. Clarification would be helpful.
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Holy Unifying Centrist
DTC
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« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2020, 03:35:13 PM »

This is what I had meant:

Quote
AN ACT
to protect statues of historical figures in the South

Section 1 (Title & Definitions)
i. The title of this act shall be, the “Protecting Our History"

Section 2 (Protecting Statues)
i. Anyone who takes down or participates in taking down the vandalism of a statue of a historical figure will be fined $500 for destroying public property. Citizens may choose to permanently take down a statue only by a ballot referendum in an election.
ii. Police departments in jurisdictions where a historical statue is taken down vandalized will be compensated $250.

Section 3 (Implementation)
i. This legislation shall come into effect immediately upon signature by the Governor.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #22 on: August 22, 2020, 03:39:18 PM »

This amendment has been adopted with no objections. The updated version of the bill is in the top post.
https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=389099.msg7528920#msg7528920



24 hours for the objection to DTC's amendment.

With a better understanding of what clause 2 is, I don't fully support it, I don't think it'll deter people from taking down the statues and it seems a little petty to be completely honest. I won't object to this amendment, though, as all it does is provide clarification. I do plan to offer an amendment after this.
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Holy Unifying Centrist
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« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2020, 03:46:20 PM »

This amendment has been adopted with no objections. The updated version of the bill is in the top post.
https://talkelections.org/FORUM/index.php?topic=389099.msg7528920#msg7528920



24 hours for the objection to DTC's amendment.

With a better understanding of what clause 2 is, I don't fully support it, I don't think it'll deter people from taking down the statues and it seems a little petty to be completely honest. I won't object to this amendment, though, as all it does is provide clarification. I do plan to offer an amendment after this.


I think it's the only way of deterring some people. Some protesters may have the financial means to pay off any fines, and they can always pay off the fines via crowdfunding. It should be fairly easy for a vandal to pay off the fines via crowdfunding through Twitter given the political nature of the site. This may be an unconventional solution, but I honestly think it's the only effective solution without heavily punishing people with excessive fines.
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tmthforu94
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« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2020, 08:15:40 PM »

The DTC amendment is adopted, debate resumes.
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