Homosexual behavior in Ancient Greece

[John Dule]

I'd like to preface this thread by saying that I do not think that homosexuality is a "choice." Nobody consciously chooses to be gay. However, thinking about the history of homosexuality, I'm becoming increasingly convinced that the explanation for homosexual behavior can't be narrowed down to just biology either. Obviously no one gene predetermines a person's sexual orientation, but scientists have found a number of possible biological markers that might affect sexual predispositions.

The explanation can't just end there, however. If homosexuality occurs at the same rate across cultures and throughout time, how can we reconcile this with the sexual practices of Ancient Greece? Sexual relations between adult men and teenage boys were essentially woven into Greek culture. The rate of participation in these activities was far, far higher than the rate of ~5% or so that we see homosexuality occurring in the population today. As far as I can see it, there are a few explanations for this phenomenon:

1) Perhaps it's best not to think of this element of Greek sexual behavior as "homosexual." Maybe we should just view it as an anomalous "rite of passage" of sorts that developed in the culture throughout time. There is evidence for this; the Greek conception of sex had more to do with dominance than with male/female relations. However, I think that's a much too convenient way of dodging the issue.

2) The rate of homosexuality is far, far higher than any of us realize. This would explain why, in a culture such as Greece, such a high percentage of people participated in homosexual acts. I actually think there might be some truth to this. It's possible that if we all lived in a society where homosexuality wasn't just "tolerated," but was in fact an accepted and time-honored cultural practice, a lot more people would be participating in homosexual activities. This makes intuitive sense, but of course I have no evidence to back it up.

3) Sexuality is at least partially socialized. This sort of ties in with #2, but takes it a step further. I think this is probably the most plausible explanation for why Greek (and to some extent, Roman) societies had such apparently high rates of homosexuality. Creepily, the way in which these practices were passed on in Greece mirrors the way in which individuals who were abused as children grow up to abuse children themselves (this is not to equate homosexuality with pedophilia). It would make sense that in a culture where these types of relations were not only accepted, but the norm, that more people would be unconsciously socialized into engaging in homosexual acts.

4) The other possible explanation is that being gay is a choice, but as I said, I don't subscribe to that.

So, Atlas-- what do you think? Obviously there are both nature and nurture elements at play here. But thinking about this, I honestly can't buy into the idea that homosexuality is 100% biologically determined. Am I missing something?

[vitoNova]

The only logical explanation is that many more men harbor cheek-busting fantasies than what those across-the-board baseline numbers suggest.

[RINO Tom]

I took a class in college that dove deep into sexuality in Ancient Greece, and the frank answer is that most of us really misrepresent the Greeks' attitude toward "homosexuality."  According to this professor and using a very simplified version, the thinking behind male/male sexual relationships in Greece was that due to men being superior to women, philosophy dictated that actual "love" could never occur between a man and a woman (it would be one fundamentally superior thing loving another inferior thing and could never constitute "true 'love'").  Women were viewed as property and sorts of human "pets," and male/male sexual encounters would inevitably happen among the more philosophically minded in their dinner parties.  However, no Ancient Greek would tolerate two guys down the street living as "husband and husband" or anything like that; that would be completely unnatural and an affront to the gods.  Also, I don't think "homosexual" relationships were anywhere near as common among your average Greek males as they were among those who were more likely to author or be invoked in surviving literary works.

[Alcibiades]

I took a class in college that dove deep into sexuality in Ancient Greece, and the frank answer is that most of us really misrepresent the Greeks' attitude toward "homosexuality."  According to this professor and using a very simplified version, the thinking behind male/male sexual relationships in Greece was that due to men being superior to women, philosophy dictated that actual "love" could never occur between a man and a woman (it would be one fundamentally superior thing loving another inferior thing and could never constitute "true 'love'").  Women were viewed as property and sorts of human "pets," and male/male sexual encounters would inevitably happen among the more philosophically minded in their dinner parties.  However, no Ancient Greek would tolerate two guys down the street living as "husband and husband" or anything like that; that would be completely unnatural and an affront to the gods.  Also, I don't think "homosexual" relationships were anywhere near as common among your average Greek males as they were among those who were more likely to author or be invoked in surviving literary works.

Yes, many of our sources on Greek homosexuality are from Athenian elites. It is a matter of debate how widespread homosexuality was among ordinary Greeks, although historians agree it was strongly linked with Athens’ democratic culture.

[politicallefty]

I don't think there's any innate difference in terms of Ancient Greece versus now. I don't think the rate of homosexuality is necessarily vastly higher than most of us think, but I do think the rate of bisexuality is far higher than any of us realize. Most of them (especially men) probably move into a heteroromantic relationship and have kids and live life without anyone batting an eye. Socialization is definitely part of the mix. People can suppress or hide the socially undesirable part of themselves. Bisexuality is far more accepted now, but female bisexuality is definitely more accepted than male bisexuality. That's probably due in part to people using bisexuality as way-stop to coming out as gay, but we're also a patriarchal society (therefore a man doing something with another man as he would with a woman is not generally acceptable). Society is moving forward and may accept things on a case-by-case basis, but there's a long road to true and full acceptance.

In terms of option 1, I do recall a culture I learned about from my Anthropology class called the Etoro in Papua New Guinea. I'm not sure I can say more here.

[Georg Ebner]

I took a class in college that dove deep into sexuality in Ancient Greece, and the frank answer is that most of us really misrepresent the Greeks' attitude toward "homosexuality."  According to this professor and using a very simplified version, the thinking behind male/male sexual relationships in Greece was that due to men being superior to women, philosophy dictated that actual "love" could never occur between a man and a woman (it would be one fundamentally superior thing loving another inferior thing and could never constitute "true 'love'").  Women were viewed as property and sorts of human "pets," and male/male sexual encounters would inevitably happen among the more philosophically minded in their dinner parties.  However, no Ancient Greek would tolerate two guys down the street living as "husband and husband" or anything like that; that would be completely unnatural and an affront to the gods.  Also, I don't think "homosexual" relationships were anywhere near as common among your average Greek males as they were among those who were more likely to author or be invoked in surviving literary works.

Yes, many of our sources on Greek homosexuality are from Athenian elites. It is a matter of debate how widespread homosexuality was among ordinary Greeks, although historians agree it was strongly linked with Athens’ democratic culture.

No, it wasn't - the opposite is true: It was linked to the cult of agon and maleness in Sparta (and among the Dorians in general).

[Alcibiades]

I took a class in college that dove deep into sexuality in Ancient Greece, and the frank answer is that most of us really misrepresent the Greeks' attitude toward "homosexuality."  According to this professor and using a very simplified version, the thinking behind male/male sexual relationships in Greece was that due to men being superior to women, philosophy dictated that actual "love" could never occur between a man and a woman (it would be one fundamentally superior thing loving another inferior thing and could never constitute "true 'love'").  Women were viewed as property and sorts of human "pets," and male/male sexual encounters would inevitably happen among the more philosophically minded in their dinner parties.  However, no Ancient Greek would tolerate two guys down the street living as "husband and husband" or anything like that; that would be completely unnatural and an affront to the gods.  Also, I don't think "homosexual" relationships were anywhere near as common among your average Greek males as they were among those who were more likely to author or be invoked in surviving literary works.

Yes, many of our sources on Greek homosexuality are from Athenian elites. It is a matter of debate how widespread homosexuality was among ordinary Greeks, although historians agree it was strongly linked with Athens’ democratic culture.

No, it wasn't - the opposite is true: It was linked to the cult of agon and maleness in Sparta (and among the Dorians in general).

I meant within Athens; of course the segregation of military-aged males from the rest of society in Sparta was associated with homosexuality there. However, to say that Greek homosexuality was a mostly Spartan phenomenon is very untrue.

[Kingpoleon]

I took a class in college that dove deep into sexuality in Ancient Greece, and the frank answer is that most of us really misrepresent the Greeks' attitude toward "homosexuality."  According to this professor and using a very simplified version, the thinking behind male/male sexual relationships in Greece was that due to men being superior to women, philosophy dictated that actual "love" could never occur between a man and a woman (it would be one fundamentally superior thing loving another inferior thing and could never constitute "true 'love'").  Women were viewed as property and sorts of human "pets," and male/male sexual encounters would inevitably happen among the more philosophically minded in their dinner parties.  However, no Ancient Greek would tolerate two guys down the street living as "husband and husband" or anything like that; that would be completely unnatural and an affront to the gods.  Also, I don't think "homosexual" relationships were anywhere near as common among your average Greek males as they were among those who were more likely to author or be invoked in surviving literary works.

It’s very difficult to talk about homosexuality in the past. However, I should note that homosexual activity in the past had little to do with orientation, and everything to do with sex. Heterosexual sex, outside of marriage/long term monogamous, causes illegitimate children, single parent households, wide transmission of sexual disease, and a host of other factors that are objectively bad for society because it creates unstable families and poorer people. This was especially true without widespread access to birth control.

Homosexual sex solves almost all of these problems and was sometimes viewed as “not really” cheating by married men.

[The Mikado]

Short answer: Read this:


The History of Sexuality Volume II by Foucault is all about ancient Greece. It's a dense read and it's not as fun as Volume I is, but it's a slim book at least.

Longer answer is that Foucault argued that the way we think about sex and sexuality is a cultural/ideological construct and that the sexuality division in Ancient Greece was on a spectrum of how much sex you were having vs who with. That the thing the Ancient Greeks would judge you for was on an abstemious -> hedonist spectrum, with moderation not veering towards either extreme being the desired attitude, and whether your partners were male or female was of a secondary concern to that.

There's a lot more in the book, but his main thrust (no pun intended), explored much more in Volume 1, is that, up until ~the 19th century, there wasn't really a cultural notion of a "homosexual" or "heterosexual." The actual act of having sex with someone of the same gender was of course something people were well aware of, but whether the Greeks' encouraging attitude towards it or Early Modern Europe's punitive attitude, it was viewed as an act, not an innate part of your character. It's the reason why Medieval and Early Modern societies had anti-sodomy laws: it was an action society disapproved of, but they wouldn't punish or freak out about someone having urges to break that law any more than your natural thought of "I want to steal my rich neighbor's dairy cow" would've been a perfectly natural thing for you to think as long as you didn't actually do it.

Anyway, people who talk about ancient sexuality like to point to Plato's Symposium, and in particular to Aristophanes' famous speech in it when Aristophanes lays out a strikingly modern idea: a myth that originally all humans were two people bound together, some two male, some two female, and some mixed male and female, but the Gods split them up because they were becoming too powerful, so ever since, people look for their lost other half. It's a very comforting and story for our current age, but Symposium is written as an argument contest, and Aristophanes' speech didn't win the night. Plato includes this view which sounds like a woke fairy tale only to reject it. Just food for thought.

[afleitch]

I mean, homosexuality is going to be expressed differently in a society where women are essentially chattel, children property and having children is conducive to survival.

100 years ago I'd have a wife and kids. It doesn't mean my sexuality is any 'different' then or now.

Let gays pair bond without indirect or direct 'punishment' and they will. I don't know why some struggle with that.

[Georg Ebner]

I took a class in college that dove deep into sexuality in Ancient Greece, and the frank answer is that most of us really misrepresent the Greeks' attitude toward "homosexuality."  According to this professor and using a very simplified version, the thinking behind male/male sexual relationships in Greece was that due to men being superior to women, philosophy dictated that actual "love" could never occur between a man and a woman (it would be one fundamentally superior thing loving another inferior thing and could never constitute "true 'love'").  Women were viewed as property and sorts of human "pets," and male/male sexual encounters would inevitably happen among the more philosophically minded in their dinner parties.  However, no Ancient Greek would tolerate two guys down the street living as "husband and husband" or anything like that; that would be completely unnatural and an affront to the gods.  Also, I don't think "homosexual" relationships were anywhere near as common among your average Greek males as they were among those who were more likely to author or be invoked in surviving literary works.

Yes, many of our sources on Greek homosexuality are from Athenian elites. It is a matter of debate how widespread homosexuality was among ordinary Greeks, although historians agree it was strongly linked with Athens’ democratic culture.

No, it wasn't - the opposite is true: It was linked to the cult of agon and maleness in Sparta (and among the Dorians in general).

I meant within Athens; of course the segregation of military-aged males from the rest of society in Sparta was associated with homosexuality there. However, to say that Greek homosexuality was a mostly Spartan phenomenon is very untrue.

As said it was a Doric phenomen, taken over by Attica (as the bridge between Dorians and Ionians&Aiolians). U.v.WILAMOWITZ-MOELLENDORFF meant, that it was caused by the long womenless journeys of the Dorians towards Greece, but that's unlikely, i'd say.
And within Athens it was rather the reactionary pro-Sparta/Delphi party, that favoured it.

[Alcibiades]

I took a class in college that dove deep into sexuality in Ancient Greece, and the frank answer is that most of us really misrepresent the Greeks' attitude toward "homosexuality."  According to this professor and using a very simplified version, the thinking behind male/male sexual relationships in Greece was that due to men being superior to women, philosophy dictated that actual "love" could never occur between a man and a woman (it would be one fundamentally superior thing loving another inferior thing and could never constitute "true 'love'").  Women were viewed as property and sorts of human "pets," and male/male sexual encounters would inevitably happen among the more philosophically minded in their dinner parties.  However, no Ancient Greek would tolerate two guys down the street living as "husband and husband" or anything like that; that would be completely unnatural and an affront to the gods.  Also, I don't think "homosexual" relationships were anywhere near as common among your average Greek males as they were among those who were more likely to author or be invoked in surviving literary works.

Yes, many of our sources on Greek homosexuality are from Athenian elites. It is a matter of debate how widespread homosexuality was among ordinary Greeks, although historians agree it was strongly linked with Athens’ democratic culture.

No, it wasn't - the opposite is true: It was linked to the cult of agon and maleness in Sparta (and among the Dorians in general).

I meant within Athens; of course the segregation of military-aged males from the rest of society in Sparta was associated with homosexuality there. However, to say that Greek homosexuality was a mostly Spartan phenomenon is very untrue.

As said it was a Doric phenomen, taken over by Attica (as the bridge between Dorians and Ionians&Aiolians). U.v.WILAMOWITZ-MOELLENDORFF meant, that it was caused by the long womenless journeys of the Dorians towards Greece, but that's unlikely, i'd say.
And within Athens it was rather the reactionary pro-Sparta/Delphi party, that favoured it.

The story of Harmodius and Aristogenes, the tyrant killers and Athenian icons of democracy, traditionally held them to be in a pederastic relationship, which is an example of the link between Athenian democracy and homosexuality.

[Georg Ebner]

I took a class in college that dove deep into sexuality in Ancient Greece, and the frank answer is that most of us really misrepresent the Greeks' attitude toward "homosexuality."  According to this professor and using a very simplified version, the thinking behind male/male sexual relationships in Greece was that due to men being superior to women, philosophy dictated that actual "love" could never occur between a man and a woman (it would be one fundamentally superior thing loving another inferior thing and could never constitute "true 'love'").  Women were viewed as property and sorts of human "pets," and male/male sexual encounters would inevitably happen among the more philosophically minded in their dinner parties.  However, no Ancient Greek would tolerate two guys down the street living as "husband and husband" or anything like that; that would be completely unnatural and an affront to the gods.  Also, I don't think "homosexual" relationships were anywhere near as common among your average Greek males as they were among those who were more likely to author or be invoked in surviving literary works.

Yes, many of our sources on Greek homosexuality are from Athenian elites. It is a matter of debate how widespread homosexuality was among ordinary Greeks, although historians agree it was strongly linked with Athens’ democratic culture.

No, it wasn't - the opposite is true: It was linked to the cult of agon and maleness in Sparta (and among the Dorians in general).

I meant within Athens; of course the segregation of military-aged males from the rest of society in Sparta was associated with homosexuality there. However, to say that Greek homosexuality was a mostly Spartan phenomenon is very untrue.

As said it was a Doric phenomen, taken over by Attica (as the bridge between Dorians and Ionians&Aiolians). U.v.WILAMOWITZ-MOELLENDORFF meant, that it was caused by the long womenless journeys of the Dorians towards Greece, but that's unlikely, i'd say.
And within Athens it was rather the reactionary pro-Sparta/Delphi party, that favoured it.

The story of Harmodius and Aristogenes, the tyrant killers and Athenian icons of democracy, traditionally held them to be in a pederastic relationship, which is an example of the link between Athenian democracy and homosexuality.

Aristogeiton and H. were abused by Athens' nontyrannic wing of democrats in order to hide the reality: Both were aristocrats, while the tyrants were a product of democracy, overthrown 510 by conservative Sparta. In the ancient world it was Democrats/Tribuns vs. Republicans/Senators.