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  International General Discussion (Moderators: Gustaf, afleitch, Hash, Kalwejt)
  Alleged forced sterilization in Xinjiang
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Author Topic: Alleged forced sterilization in Xinjiang  (Read 417 times)
Forumlurker
Forumlurker161
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« on: August 01, 2020, 12:46:20 pm »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/07/30/asia/xinjiang-sterilization-women-human-rights-intl-hnk/index.html
THIS is what Atlas (and America) should be pissed off with China for. Not TikTok or ďChina lied, people diedĒ crap.
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Cath
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« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2020, 02:13:28 pm »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/07/30/asia/xinjiang-sterilization-women-human-rights-intl-hnk/index.html
THIS is what Atlas (and America) should be pissed off with China for. Not TikTok or ďChina lied, people diedĒ crap.

It's not either-or.
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hangfan91
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« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2020, 03:22:23 pm »

More western propaganda against China, just like how the western media lied about China "spreading" the coronavirus when the first case was confirmed in France all the way back in November. China only got scapegoated because they were the first to notify the world about the virus.
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Zinneke
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« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2020, 04:11:17 pm »

More western propaganda against China, just like how the western media lied about China "spreading" the coronavirus when the first case was confirmed in France all the way back in November. China only got scapegoated because they were the first to notify the world about the virus.

pass the pipe when you're done!
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Forumlurker
Forumlurker161
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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2020, 08:39:39 pm »

Look, one is pretty obviously happening.
TikTok is possible imo, but at the same time, China tells their citizens the same things we are telling ours about American social media so for us to do the same while complaining of Chinese censorship is hypocritical. Maybe ban it in National Security fields, but letís not do it for civilians. Here is a good read on the matter:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2020/07/09/tech/tiktok-security-threat/index.html

https://www.wired.com/story/tiktok-ban-us-national-security-risk/

As for Covid-19, China had a far better response than the US. Saying otherwise IS propaganda.
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Forumlurker
Forumlurker161
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« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2020, 08:48:10 pm »

More western propaganda against China, just like how the western media lied about China "spreading" the coronavirus when the first case was confirmed in France all the way back in November. China only got scapegoated because they were the first to notify the world about the virus.
...Okay letís debunk several things.
Firstly, you say the first case of Covid-19 was found in France. Well one, scientists have found coronaviruses in bats very similar to Covid in China. Two, the first outbreak was in Wuhan, and finally the studies on earlier spread in Europe are still disputed. In my opinion, it probably started near Wuhan and spread in the city earlier than detected. I donít blame China for not detecting it earlier as this was as flu season was starting.

More importantly, there is a pretty good case that the Uyghur genocide does exist. At the very least, we should demand more transparency into these sites, although honestly there is a good case against China already.

Look I am probably one of the most outspoken people here about Western bias against China, but at some point, you have to admit China can also do wrong and likely is right now. If you can provide evidence from a credible source against the Uyghur Genocide, I am all ears.
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CumbrianLeftie
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« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2020, 05:29:36 am »

China does get accused unfairly of certain things, that's true.

It doesn't appear as if this is one of them.
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redjohn
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« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2020, 09:40:40 pm »

If this is accurate, it's obviously horrible. There are clearly injustices in the treatment of Uyghurs in Xinjiang.

This involves first-hand accounts, so I'm inclined to believe it, BUT: It's very important to not read headlines that accuse the Chinese government of crimes against humanity and immediately conclude that those headlines are factual. There is a lot of sensationalist media on China (similar to NK), and most Americans are too quick to rush to condemnation of China.
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Mr. Illini
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« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2020, 04:21:45 pm »
« Edited: August 03, 2020, 04:25:50 pm by Mr. Illini »

I know you are critiquing China here and I appreciate that as the story told in the CNN piece is horrifying, but it is a little crazy for me to read something like, "look, usually the Chinese government is not bad, but I admit this is wrong."

It is an extremely unfortunate byproduct of Trump's faux "tough on China" rhetoric that some on the left feel the need to defend the Chinese government or at least avoid the topic.

Are you willing to excuse their denial of freedom of speech and press to their citizens, in violation of international law?

Are you willing to excuse the hundreds to thousands who were shot in Tienanmen Square attempting to exercise speech?

Have you forgotten that they are currently shredding the Sino-British Join Declaration by ending the two systems policy in Hong Kong almost three decades early?

Do you remember the prisoners of conscience, torture, and forced abortions and sterilizations in Tibet?

I don't agree with Cath's statement in the sense that we must blame China for everything/believe theories of wrongdoing without sufficient evidence, but what is true is that you cannot acknowledge the atrocities being committed in Xinjiang and pretend that the Chinese government is not a serial human rights abuser aside from that. What they are doing there is entirely consistent with actions they have taken elsewhere over decades.
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Forumlurker
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« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2020, 06:16:32 pm »

I know you are critiquing China here and I appreciate that as the story told in the CNN piece is horrifying, but it is a little crazy for me to read something like, "look, usually the Chinese government is not bad, but I admit this is wrong."

It is an extremely unfortunate byproduct of Trump's faux "tough on China" rhetoric that some on the left feel the need to defend the Chinese government or at least avoid the topic.

Are you willing to excuse their denial of freedom of speech and press to their citizens, in violation of international law?
Yes, plenty of US allies restrict free speech. Itís not a good thing, but this isnít some uncommon trend.

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Are you willing to excuse the hundreds to thousands who were shot in Tienanmen Square attempting to exercise speech?
That was in the 1980ís, when China was a far different nation from what it is now.
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Have you forgotten that they are currently shredding the Sino-British Join Declaration by ending the two systems policy in Hong Kong almost three decades early?
That is iffy ground and itís definitely not so clear cut. What I do find strange is that nobody mentions Macau which is under the same system. I guess the existence of a SAR operating within the framework peacefully is not exciting enough to report on...

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Do you remember the prisoners of conscience, torture, and forced abortions and sterilizations in Tibet?
Yes, that is another example of genocide in China. I donít endorse what China has been doing in trying to forcibly assimilate minority ethnic groups into the Han majority and I never will.

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I don't agree with Cath's statement in the sense that we must blame China for everything/believe theories of wrongdoing without sufficient evidence, but what is true is that you cannot acknowledge the atrocities being committed in Xinjiang and pretend that the Chinese government is not a serial human rights abuser aside from that. What they are doing there is entirely consistent with actions they have taken elsewhere over decades.
Agreed entirely. I donít believe China is okay outside of the Uyghur genocide, but I do believe that too often, Americans see China in black-and-white without understanding the culture, the politics, nor the context.
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