What is the most left-wing European city?

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

I've not been there to confirm, but I gather Bologna has a fairly leftwing reputation.

Bologna is probably the most left-wing city in Italy, with an old Communist Party tradition and a large university, but I am not sure it is comparable to Liverpool and the other British cities that are getting discussed.

(Bologna contends the title with Florence)

[LabourJersey]

It is kind of interesting reading about a right wing Everton fan base. I've always heard that their fan base today is one of the most left in the league.

I think it's more appearing to be right-wing in a pretty leftist area like Merseyside. There were probably pockets of skinhead supporters for the club, but not among the mainstream supporters. I think that's very different from right-wing support in a place like Millwall, to use an extreme example.

Not sure what you mean about Millwall? Both Millwall itself and the area where they've traditionally played are fairly strongly left-wing areas. But that's not really relevant, because football support doesn't have much to do with geographic location, especially where the ultras of big-city clubs are concerned - they tend to be the well-off grandchildren of people who fled the area before ethnic minority populations even arrived.

OK I may be confusing Millwall with another London club. But I was under the belief they always had a large hooligan element that was adjacent with skinhead-types (at least much more so than other clubs).

[Alcibiades]

It is kind of interesting reading about a right wing Everton fan base. I've always heard that their fan base today is one of the most left in the league.

I think it's more appearing to be right-wing in a pretty leftist area like Merseyside. There were probably pockets of skinhead supporters for the club, but not among the mainstream supporters. I think that's very different from right-wing support in a place like Millwall, to use an extreme example.

Not sure what you mean about Millwall? Both Millwall itself and the area where they've traditionally played are fairly strongly left-wing areas. But that's not really relevant, because football support doesn't have much to do with geographic location, especially where the ultras of big-city clubs are concerned - they tend to be the well-off grandchildren of people who fled the area before ethnic minority populations even arrived.

OK I may be confusing Millwall with another London club. But I was under the belief they always had a large hooligan element that was adjacent with skinhead-types (at least much more so than other clubs).

No, you were definitely thinking of Millwall. Their hardcore fanbase is the most notoriously violent and thuggish in England. I would imagine these fans are pretty right-wing socially, bit as has already been discussed, not necessarily on economic issues.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The thing is, most football fan cultures in Britain are not remotely political. Originally, people supported their local club (and often that was a pretty broad definition of local - c.f. all those Liverpool, Everton and Manchester City fans in North Wales - and often that was local clubs plural: almost all bitter local rivalries date to no earlier than the 1970s), and as the twentieth century wore on and the nineteenth century social geography that this was based on began to fade away, this started shifting towards family tradition.* Political considerations were (and are) basically never a factor, with the famous Glaswegian exception, which had rather more to do with 1690 than 1917.

Ultras culture is a different thing, but a) it is tiny and not representative of anything other than itself and b) frankly they're all just a bunch of tiresome, middle class LARPers and I would take their so-called 'politics' about as seriously as their protestations to be in any sense 'working class' or their knowledge of football as, you know, an actual sport. It is a consumer identity that they've bought and paid for, no more, no less. Of course, the maliciously-minded could note that this is increasingly true of a lot of our inherited political labels.

_{*I was not born in Co. Durham, but nevertheless have been a Sunderland supporter since childhood. A statement that increasingly comes across as a plea for sympathy and understanding, I admit.}

[afleitch]

It is a consumer identity that they've bought and paid for, no more, no less. Of course, the maliciously-minded could note that this is increasingly true of a lot of our inherited political labels.

Celtic and Rangers etc exploded in relative popularity, as someone who grew up in a place where there were still legitimate Hamilton and Motherwell fans in the early/mid 90's simply because it was consumable. You could decorate your room with it. For the same reason a whole swathe of people became Man U fans.

[EastAnglianLefty]

It is kind of interesting reading about a right wing Everton fan base. I've always heard that their fan base today is one of the most left in the league.

I think it's more appearing to be right-wing in a pretty leftist area like Merseyside. There were probably pockets of skinhead supporters for the club, but not among the mainstream supporters. I think that's very different from right-wing support in a place like Millwall, to use an extreme example.

Not sure what you mean about Millwall? Both Millwall itself and the area where they've traditionally played are fairly strongly left-wing areas. But that's not really relevant, because football support doesn't have much to do with geographic location, especially where the ultras of big-city clubs are concerned - they tend to be the well-off grandchildren of people who fled the area before ethnic minority populations even arrived.

OK I may be confusing Millwall with another London club. But I was under the belief they always had a large hooligan element that was adjacent with skinhead-types (at least much more so than other clubs).

No, you're right. It's just that Millwall the area is on the Isle of Dogs, where the club was established, but since the early 20th century they've played in Lewisham. Very little of their present fanbase comes from either area, however.

[Alcibiades]

The thing is, most football fan cultures in Britain are not remotely political. Originally, people supported their local club (and often that was a pretty broad definition of local - c.f. all those Liverpool, Everton and Manchester City fans in North Wales - and often that was local clubs plural: almost all bitter local rivalries date to no earlier than the 1970s), and as the twentieth century wore on and the nineteenth century social geography that this was based on began to fade away, this started shifting towards family tradition.* Political considerations were (and are) basically never a factor, with the famous Glaswegian exception, which had rather more to do with 1690 than 1917.

Ultras culture is a different thing, but a) it is tiny and not representative of anything other than itself and b) frankly they're all just a bunch of tiresome, middle class LARPers and I would take their so-called 'politics' about as seriously as their protestations to be in any sense 'working class' or their knowledge of football as, you know, an actual sport. It is a consumer identity that they've bought and paid for, no more, no less. Of course, the maliciously-minded could note that this is increasingly true of a lot of our inherited political labels.

_{*I was not born in Co. Durham, but nevertheless have been a Sunderland supporter since childhood. A statement that increasingly comes across as a plea for sympathy and understanding, I admit.}

Of course, football support is mostly either based on who your dad supports (mine certainly is) or who was most successful when you were growing up, as of late and the domination of English football by a select few, and politics plays an absolutely negligible factor. I have never personally seen any serious political displays on the terraces in England (unlike in Germany or of course Italy). Nonetheless, among ultras and hooligans, who as you rightly pointed out are a small proportion of fans even at the most notorious clubs, have traditionally been associated with the far right to an extent, at least in the 80s there was certainly an association with them of the National Front. A lot of Union Jack waving at a time when this was not a mainstream expression of patriotism, rather of far-right extremism.

[Zinneke]

The thing is, most football fan cultures in Britain are not remotely political. Originally, people supported their local club (and often that was a pretty broad definition of local - c.f. all those Liverpool, Everton and Manchester City fans in North Wales - and often that was local clubs plural: almost all bitter local rivalries date to no earlier than the 1970s), and as the twentieth century wore on and the nineteenth century social geography that this was based on began to fade away, this started shifting towards family tradition.* Political considerations were (and are) basically never a factor, with the famous Glaswegian exception, which had rather more to do with 1690 than 1917.

Ultras culture is a different thing, but a) it is tiny and not representative of anything other than itself and b) frankly they're all just a bunch of tiresome, middle class LARPers and I would take their so-called 'politics' about as seriously as their protestations to be in any sense 'working class' or their knowledge of football as, you know, an actual sport. It is a consumer identity that they've bought and paid for, no more, no less. Of course, the maliciously-minded could note that this is increasingly true of a lot of our inherited political labels.

_{*I was not born in Co. Durham, but nevertheless have been a Sunderland supporter since childhood. A statement that increasingly comes across as a plea for sympathy and understanding, I admit.}

Green Brigade and Union Bears are both respected around Europe, and not as "middle class LARPers". And yes, they are both inherently political. Football itself is - while not necessarily manifesting itself in a traditional left-right context - largely intertwined with the political . Except when its clashes between energy drink companies. You'd expect a Sunderland fan to understand this given that particular rivalry in the North East.

Anyway, my point was initially this : if it came to a draw between Liverpool and Glasgow for the title of who is the most left-wing city, a significant tie breaker would be the fact that Liverpool probably wouldn't tolerate UVF flags in pubs and Orangist culture the same way. Remains to be seen though.

[CumbrianLefty]

Celtic and Rangers etc exploded in relative popularity, as someone who grew up in a place where there were still legitimate Hamilton and Motherwell fans in the early/mid 90's simply because it was consumable. You could decorate your room with it. For the same reason a whole swathe of people became Man U fans.

Though that phenomenon arguably started with Liverpool in the 1980s.

[Hnv1]

The thing is, most football fan cultures in Britain are not remotely political. Originally, people supported their local club (and often that was a pretty broad definition of local - c.f. all those Liverpool, Everton and Manchester City fans in North Wales - and often that was local clubs plural: almost all bitter local rivalries date to no earlier than the 1970s), and as the twentieth century wore on and the nineteenth century social geography that this was based on began to fade away, this started shifting towards family tradition.* Political considerations were (and are) basically never a factor, with the famous Glaswegian exception, which had rather more to do with 1690 than 1917.

Ultras culture is a different thing, but a) it is tiny and not representative of anything other than itself and b) frankly they're all just a bunch of tiresome, middle class LARPers and I would take their so-called 'politics' about as seriously as their protestations to be in any sense 'working class' or their knowledge of football as, you know, an actual sport. It is a consumer identity that they've bought and paid for, no more, no less. Of course, the maliciously-minded could note that this is increasingly true of a lot of our inherited political labels.

_{*I was not born in Co. Durham, but nevertheless have been a Sunderland supporter since childhood. A statement that increasingly comes across as a plea for sympathy and understanding, I admit.}

Spurs\Woolwich aside dating to the 20's, local rivalries weren't common because traveling away support was nearly impossible before the 60's. Once it became possible and accessible things escalated quickly. I saw a piece about an Everton firm going into the Shelf with batons in 1967. Woolwich winning the league at Spurs in 1971 was already accompanied with mass brawls all over Tottenham High Road. But the rise of hooliganism came joined with the hard mod scene turning into the skinhead scene, a definite post-war phenomenon.

NF tried to infiltrate most firms in the late 70's, but they were some that were more prone. Chelsea was a hotbed, and right wing extremism in West London and Surrey is going back to the interwar period. 

[Statilius the Epicurean]

If you mean right-wing in the economic sense then no, Rangers fans are not right-wing. Even in polling before the 2014 referendum IIRC, both Celtic and Rangers fans had more Yes than No supporters in correlation with their working class and generally Scottish base (No support was higher amongst those who were fans of other clubs or didn't really care for football that much)

There' a great degree of 'performance' amongst fans related to symbolism (Union Jack v Tricolour, Israel v Palestine) that often makes little sense to all but vocal and often unpopular fans in their fan base, but I don't think that translates into anything meaningful politically in Glasgow.

I get knots in my stomach 'defending' Huns but I have to in this instance

My dad's side of the family are all working class Glasgow/Ayrshire Labour-to-now rabid SNP voters, and mostly Rangers fans. When the Old Firm rolls around I see the most ridiculous nonsense on Facebook from them with the Queen and union flag everywhere. A flag they want indy from! It's honestly bizarre, like football causes sectarian brain worms in people up there.

As for Everton fans, my sister's partner is one and a full on Corbynite, as is the rest of his Liverpudlian family. Nothing winds him up more than people assuming that Everton is the "Tory club" in Liverpool because they play in blue.

NF tried to infiltrate most firms in the late 70's, but they were some that were more prone. Chelsea was a hotbed, and right wing extremism in West London and Surrey is going back to the interwar period.

When my dad moved to London in the early 80s he would go to Arsenal and Tottenham games on alternating weekends, but stuck with Spurs because the National Front had the least presence there of any London club (for obvious reasons).

[Hnv1]

If you mean right-wing in the economic sense then no, Rangers fans are not right-wing. Even in polling before the 2014 referendum IIRC, both Celtic and Rangers fans had more Yes than No supporters in correlation with their working class and generally Scottish base (No support was higher amongst those who were fans of other clubs or didn't really care for football that much)

There' a great degree of 'performance' amongst fans related to symbolism (Union Jack v Tricolour, Israel v Palestine) that often makes little sense to all but vocal and often unpopular fans in their fan base, but I don't think that translates into anything meaningful politically in Glasgow.

I get knots in my stomach 'defending' Huns but I have to in this instance

My dad's side of the family are all working class Glasgow/Ayrshire Labour-to-now rabid SNP voters, and mostly Rangers fans. When the Old Firm rolls around I see the most ridiculous nonsense on Facebook from them with the Queen and union flag everywhere. A flag they want indy from! It's honestly bizarre, like football causes sectarian brain worms in people up there.

As for Everton fans, my sister's partner is one and a full on Corbynite, as is the rest of his Liverpudlian family. Nothing winds him up more than people assuming that Everton is the "Tory club" in Liverpool because they play in blue.

NF tried to infiltrate most firms in the late 70's, but they were some that were more prone. Chelsea was a hotbed, and right wing extremism in West London and Surrey is going back to the interwar period.

When my dad moved to London in the early 80s he would go to Arsenal and Tottenham games on alternating weekends, but stuck with Spurs because the National Front had the least presence there of any London club (for obvious reasons).

NF never caught on with spurs and woolwich. Both had big Jewish following and black following as well (the latter more than the former). There was also bad blood as Spurs gave some of the NF big ones a battering in an away fixture at the old den. Chelsea had it worst. The only white team in London, and Blair Peach is lying in a grave were common chants by both their firm and old supporters

[Velasco]

I've not been there to confirm, but I gather Bologna has a fairly leftwing reputation.

Bologna is probably the most left-wing city in Italy, with an old Communist Party tradition and a large university, but I am not sure it is comparable to Liverpool and the other British cities that are getting discussed.

(Bologna contends the title with Florence)

Bologna and Florence were PCI strongholds in the past, but I'm not sure that the former mayor Matteo Renzi and other PD leaders were exactly the followers of a leftwing tradition ( let alone communist)

In what regards Liverpool, the strong Labour vote in general elections is not apparently correlated to the local governments voted by the Liverpudlians

Barcelona in Spain leans to the left, not so much as its metropolitan region. However, Barcelona had a CiU mayor between 2011 and 2015 and the neighbouring Badalona (formerly a communist and socialist bastion) has a pretty rightwing PP mayor. Also, the conflict on Catalan independence dissolves the traditional ideological cleavage.

Sorry parochial boy, Marinaleda is the only true left-wing stronghold in Europe alongside some KKE voting island in Greece

[LabourJersey]

If you mean right-wing in the economic sense then no, Rangers fans are not right-wing. Even in polling before the 2014 referendum IIRC, both Celtic and Rangers fans had more Yes than No supporters in correlation with their working class and generally Scottish base (No support was higher amongst those who were fans of other clubs or didn't really care for football that much)

There' a great degree of 'performance' amongst fans related to symbolism (Union Jack v Tricolour, Israel v Palestine) that often makes little sense to all but vocal and often unpopular fans in their fan base, but I don't think that translates into anything meaningful politically in Glasgow.

I get knots in my stomach 'defending' Huns but I have to in this instance

My dad's side of the family are all working class Glasgow/Ayrshire Labour-to-now rabid SNP voters, and mostly Rangers fans. When the Old Firm rolls around I see the most ridiculous nonsense on Facebook from them with the Queen and union flag everywhere. A flag they want indy from! It's honestly bizarre, like football causes sectarian brain worms in people up there.

As for Everton fans, my sister's partner is one and a full on Corbynite, as is the rest of his Liverpudlian family. Nothing winds him up more than people assuming that Everton is the "Tory club" in Liverpool because they play in blue.

NF tried to infiltrate most firms in the late 70's, but they were some that were more prone. Chelsea was a hotbed, and right wing extremism in West London and Surrey is going back to the interwar period.

When my dad moved to London in the early 80s he would go to Arsenal and Tottenham games on alternating weekends, but stuck with Spurs because the National Front had the least presence there of any London club (for obvious reasons).

This is all genuinely interesting.

I've followed Liverpool in the EPL for a while, but I've never heard of Everton being accused of being a "Tory" club. My impression was that they're both equally working-class in their fan bases, more or less. And more working-class than Chelsea or Arsenal fanbases.

And I do get the impression that a lot of the Old Firm shenanigans is mainly performative, at least from what I gathered from Scots I know. 

Celtic FC fandom in the US especially is really hilarious to me since it manages to attract truly odd collections of people. Lots of right-wing Irish Americans will wear their jerseys and respect them out of "ancestral pride," while some edgy leftists really like them for the pro-Palestine slant.

[Hnv1]

If you mean right-wing in the economic sense then no, Rangers fans are not right-wing. Even in polling before the 2014 referendum IIRC, both Celtic and Rangers fans had more Yes than No supporters in correlation with their working class and generally Scottish base (No support was higher amongst those who were fans of other clubs or didn't really care for football that much)

There' a great degree of 'performance' amongst fans related to symbolism (Union Jack v Tricolour, Israel v Palestine) that often makes little sense to all but vocal and often unpopular fans in their fan base, but I don't think that translates into anything meaningful politically in Glasgow.

I get knots in my stomach 'defending' Huns but I have to in this instance

My dad's side of the family are all working class Glasgow/Ayrshire Labour-to-now rabid SNP voters, and mostly Rangers fans. When the Old Firm rolls around I see the most ridiculous nonsense on Facebook from them with the Queen and union flag everywhere. A flag they want indy from! It's honestly bizarre, like football causes sectarian brain worms in people up there.

As for Everton fans, my sister's partner is one and a full on Corbynite, as is the rest of his Liverpudlian family. Nothing winds him up more than people assuming that Everton is the "Tory club" in Liverpool because they play in blue.

NF tried to infiltrate most firms in the late 70's, but they were some that were more prone. Chelsea was a hotbed, and right wing extremism in West London and Surrey is going back to the interwar period.

When my dad moved to London in the early 80s he would go to Arsenal and Tottenham games on alternating weekends, but stuck with Spurs because the National Front had the least presence there of any London club (for obvious reasons).

This is all genuinely interesting.

I've followed Liverpool in the EPL for a while, but I've never heard of Everton being accused of being a "Tory" club. My impression was that they're both equally working-class in their fan bases, more or less. And more working-class than Chelsea or Arsenal fanbases.

And I do get the impression that a lot of the Old Firm shenanigans is mainly performative, at least from what I gathered from Scots I know. 

Celtic FC fandom in the US especially is really hilarious to me since it manages to attract truly odd collections of people. Lots of right-wing Irish Americans will wear their jerseys and respect them out of "ancestral pride," while some edgy leftists really like them for the pro-Palestine slant.

I've heard from scousers before that Everton was actually considered the catholic club of the city once while Liverpool were the protestant, and then it changed. odd indeed.

[LabourJersey]

If you mean right-wing in the economic sense then no, Rangers fans are not right-wing. Even in polling before the 2014 referendum IIRC, both Celtic and Rangers fans had more Yes than No supporters in correlation with their working class and generally Scottish base (No support was higher amongst those who were fans of other clubs or didn't really care for football that much)

There' a great degree of 'performance' amongst fans related to symbolism (Union Jack v Tricolour, Israel v Palestine) that often makes little sense to all but vocal and often unpopular fans in their fan base, but I don't think that translates into anything meaningful politically in Glasgow.

I get knots in my stomach 'defending' Huns but I have to in this instance

My dad's side of the family are all working class Glasgow/Ayrshire Labour-to-now rabid SNP voters, and mostly Rangers fans. When the Old Firm rolls around I see the most ridiculous nonsense on Facebook from them with the Queen and union flag everywhere. A flag they want indy from! It's honestly bizarre, like football causes sectarian brain worms in people up there.

As for Everton fans, my sister's partner is one and a full on Corbynite, as is the rest of his Liverpudlian family. Nothing winds him up more than people assuming that Everton is the "Tory club" in Liverpool because they play in blue.

NF tried to infiltrate most firms in the late 70's, but they were some that were more prone. Chelsea was a hotbed, and right wing extremism in West London and Surrey is going back to the interwar period.

When my dad moved to London in the early 80s he would go to Arsenal and Tottenham games on alternating weekends, but stuck with Spurs because the National Front had the least presence there of any London club (for obvious reasons).

This is all genuinely interesting.

I've followed Liverpool in the EPL for a while, but I've never heard of Everton being accused of being a "Tory" club. My impression was that they're both equally working-class in their fan bases, more or less. And more working-class than Chelsea or Arsenal fanbases.

And I do get the impression that a lot of the Old Firm shenanigans is mainly performative, at least from what I gathered from Scots I know. 

Celtic FC fandom in the US especially is really hilarious to me since it manages to attract truly odd collections of people. Lots of right-wing Irish Americans will wear their jerseys and respect them out of "ancestral pride," while some edgy leftists really like them for the pro-Palestine slant.

I've heard from scousers before that Everton was actually considered the catholic club of the city once while Liverpool were the protestant, and then it changed. odd indeed.

But then again Everton was originally a (Protestant) Church team, IIRC.

I guess shifting demographics would explain it. Could be the area that Everton draws most of its fans went from being very Protestant in the 1870s, to Catholic, and then becoming mixed?

Could be an explanation. But I think these switches illustrates other posters' points that the Catholic/Protestant divide in Liverpool is nothing compared to what it used to be in Glasgow, which probably helps its case for being the most leftwing city in the UK

[CumbrianLefty]

Though the Orange parades in Liverpool may have been the last ones extant in England.

[Hnv1]

Though the Orange parades in Liverpool may have been the last ones extant in England.

Would they have thrived so long without a proud Irish community to stick it to? Sometimes this conflict spiral on from pure inertia. I doubt 90% of Rangers and Celtic supporters still really care about Ulster, but inertia keeps it going. Rangers singing Rule Britannia years after English supporters stopped and a lot are SNP voters. add to the mix the Tartan army which is mostly highlanders are not Celtic\Rangers supporters and Scotland is one weird place to live in.

Football makes you act strangely.

[LabourJersey]

Though the Orange parades in Liverpool may have been the last ones extant in England.

Would they have thrived so long without a proud Irish community to stick it to? Sometimes this conflict spiral on from pure inertia. I doubt 90% of Rangers and Celtic supporters still really care about Ulster, but inertia keeps it going. Rangers singing Rule Britannia years after English supporters stopped and a lot are SNP voters. add to the mix the Tartan army which is mostly highlanders are not Celtic\Rangers supporters and Scotland is one weird place to live in.

Football makes you act strangely.

Perhaps, but these football superfans (I guess you can't call them all hooligans or ultras) are a pretty small percentage of the population.

Having lived in Scotland for a few months I'd consider it a pretty nice place to live.

[CumbrianLefty]

Perhaps, but these football superfans (I guess you can't call them all hooligans or ultras) are a pretty small percentage of the population.

Yes, and even many other committed fans find them something of an embarrassment.

[Zinneke]

Perhaps, but these football superfans (I guess you can't call them all hooligans or ultras) are a pretty small percentage of the population.

Yes, and even many other committed fans find them something of an embarrassment.

I think the way English football has become the epitomy of modern, commercialised, tourist-orientated football more embarrassing than a couple of Crystal Palace supporters setting up an atmosphere group. You only have to look at how every English side is outsung in their own backyard by virtually every other club in Europe, made to look literally like they are afraid of standing up in their own home (granted my experience is mainly with the London clubs - I imagine clubs like Leeds would be different).

Let's also maybe learn the difference between ultra, hooligan and supporters club before passing judgement too. People have been going to strange venues to sing hymns for generations. There's no need to look down on this particular brand because they upset your cinema experience.

[Alcibiades]

Perhaps, but these football superfans (I guess you can't call them all hooligans or ultras) are a pretty small percentage of the population.

Yes, and even many other committed fans find them something of an embarrassment.

I think the way English football has become the epitomy of modern, commercialised, tourist-orientated football more embarrassing than a couple of Crystal Palace supporters setting up an atmosphere group. You only have to look at how every English side is outsung in their own backyard by virtually every other club in Europe, made to look literally like they are afraid of standing up in their own home (granted my experience is mainly with the London clubs - I imagine clubs like Leeds would be different).

Let's also maybe learn the difference between ultra, hooligan and supporters club before passing judgement too. People have been going to strange venues to sing hymns for generations. There's no need to look down on this particular brand because they upset your cinema experience.

It is understandable why clubs in England are so keen to enforce no standing rules, as the memories of Hillsborough are still painful to many.

Yes, the fan experience is more commercialised and sanitised than on the continent, but quite frankly it is a hell of a lot better than in the 80s, when many families and fans would have been afraid to go to stadiums because of hooligans.

Hooliganism was a huge embarrassment to English football and England more broadly, creating negative perceptions in the rest of Europe, and its decline is a recent success story of English football.

[Middle-aged Europe]

With the Greens, the SPD, the Left, Die PARTEI, the Animal Protection Party, Yanis Varoufakis' DiEM25, Volt (which now caucuses with the Greens in the European Parliament) and the Pirate Party having won a combined 64% of the vote in the 2019 European election I'd definitely say that Berlin is a rather left-wing city, especially in the inner city (it gets more and more conservative the farther you get away from the center).

Historically, this is a rather new development though, considering that - except for a brief 22-month interruption around the time of the reunification - we always had a CDU mayor in the period between 1981 and 2001. The Western borough of Kreuzberg had been a left-wing anarchist stronghold as far back as the 60s and the reunification had brought along some major Left Party strongholds in East, but the dominance of left-wing politics across the entire city only manifested itself with the dawn of the new millennium.

Hamburg's left-wing history goes much farther back, having had SPD mayors since 1957 except for the 2000s decade when very liberal CDU mayor Ole von Beust (and his brief successor for six months Christoph Ahlhaus) was in charge. Since the last state election in February of this year, the SPD-Green coalition government also holds an unprecedented two-third majority in state parliament now (if we'd throw the opposition Left Party in it's even a four-fifth majority). Hamburg has also an long-standing equivalent to Berlin's Kreuzberg in form of the Schanzenviertel. The only caveat is that the SPD state chapter in Hamburg tradtionally tends to be rather centrist which is one factor why they probably managed to hold onto the mayorship for so long.

Ah, and the Ruhrgebiet with the cities of Dortmund, Essen, Duisburg, and Bochum is of course regarded the SPD's number one historical stronghold with a very traditional working-class, union-based form of social democracy. This stronghold eroded quite a bit parallel to the decline of the coal industry in the region, although is still hasn't been totally erased yet. Of the four aforementioned major cities in the area, only Essen has a CDU mayor nowadays.

[Zinneke]

Perhaps, but these football superfans (I guess you can't call them all hooligans or ultras) are a pretty small percentage of the population.

Yes, and even many other committed fans find them something of an embarrassment.

I think the way English football has become the epitomy of modern, commercialised, tourist-orientated football more embarrassing than a couple of Crystal Palace supporters setting up an atmosphere group. You only have to look at how every English side is outsung in their own backyard by virtually every other club in Europe, made to look literally like they are afraid of standing up in their own home (granted my experience is mainly with the London clubs - I imagine clubs like Leeds would be different).

Let's also maybe learn the difference between ultra, hooligan and supporters club before passing judgement too. People have been going to strange venues to sing hymns for generations. There's no need to look down on this particular brand because they upset your cinema experience.

It is understandable why clubs in England are so keen to enforce no standing rules, as the memories of Hillsborough are still painful to many.

Yes, the fan experience is more commercialised and sanitised than on the continent, but quite frankly it is a hell of a lot better than in the 80s, when many families and fans would have been afraid to go to stadiums because of hooligans.

Hooliganism was a huge embarrassment to English football and England more broadly, creating negative perceptions in the rest of Europe, and its decline is a recent success story of English football.

Which is why I made the hooligan/ultra/supporters club distinction. In the same way you can't generalise about an entire fanbases politics based on the supporters group, you can't also merge hooligans and ultras into one.

[CumbrianLefty]

Perhaps, but these football superfans (I guess you can't call them all hooligans or ultras) are a pretty small percentage of the population.

Yes, and even many other committed fans find them something of an embarrassment.

I think the way English football has become the epitomy of modern, commercialised, tourist-orientated football more embarrassing than a couple of Crystal Palace supporters setting up an atmosphere group. You only have to look at how every English side is outsung in their own backyard by virtually every other club in Europe, made to look literally like they are afraid of standing up in their own home (granted my experience is mainly with the London clubs - I imagine clubs like Leeds would be different).

Let's also maybe learn the difference between ultra, hooligan and supporters club before passing judgement too. People have been going to strange venues to sing hymns for generations. There's no need to look down on this particular brand because they upset your cinema experience.

It is understandable why clubs in England are so keen to enforce no standing rules, as the memories of Hillsborough are still painful to many.

Yes, the fan experience is more commercialised and sanitised than on the continent, but quite frankly it is a hell of a lot better than in the 80s, when many families and fans would have been afraid to go to stadiums because of hooligans.

Hooliganism was a huge embarrassment to English football and England more broadly, creating negative perceptions in the rest of Europe, and its decline is a recent success story of English football.

Which is why I made the hooligan/ultra/supporters club distinction. In the same way you can't generalise about an entire fanbases politics based on the supporters group, you can't also merge hooligans and ultras into one.

No they aren't the same, but its not untrue to say that there can be *some* overlap.