What is the most left-wing European city?

[CumbrianLefty]

There's possibly a case for arguing that Glasgow is even more left-wing than Liverpool - in a lot of places the SNP can't be treated as a straightforward left-of-centre vote, but it's hard to argue for anything else in Glasgow.

I mean, the presence alone of Rangers Football Club is a pretty good counter argument to Glasgow being more leftwing than Liverpool...

The hardcore come from around Glasgow and the coast. Everton had quite a nasty following back in the days so...

I know Rangers have big implantation in Ayshire but they also have a big local following in traditional Protestant districts of Glasgow, in the south  (trace a line from govan hill to the bottom of the city limits). That coincidentally have high Tory numbers...and also go into some rangers supporting pubs in Glasgow with some nice mural-like red hands with UVF stuff and RAF symbols...you'd never see anything like that in Liverpool

Not saying they are plurality in the city. But in general Glasgow has a right wing element you wouldn't see in a city like Liverpool. I have never heard of these right wing evertonians though and am intrigued.

Glasgow doesn't have big Tory strongholds anywhere these days, at council or constituency level.

As for Everton - yes they did have a very nasty fringe in the 80s, it was infamously their "fans" who chucked a banana at John Barnes in what became an (in)famous incident. The ward in Liverpool of that name also returned councillors for a local Protestant Party back in the day.

[Alcibiades]

There's possibly a case for arguing that Glasgow is even more left-wing than Liverpool - in a lot of places the SNP can't be treated as a straightforward left-of-centre vote, but it's hard to argue for anything else in Glasgow.

I mean, the presence alone of Rangers Football Club is a pretty good counter argument to Glasgow being more leftwing than Liverpool...

The hardcore come from around Glasgow and the coast. Everton had quite a nasty following back in the days so...

I know Rangers have big implantation in Ayshire but they also have a big local following in traditional Protestant districts of Glasgow, in the south  (trace a line from govan hill to the bottom of the city limits). That coincidentally have high Tory numbers...and also go into some rangers supporting pubs in Glasgow with some nice mural-like red hands with UVF stuff and RAF symbols...you'd never see anything like that in Liverpool

Not saying they are plurality in the city. But in general Glasgow has a right wing element you wouldn't see in a city like Liverpool. I have never heard of these right wing evertonians though and am intrigued.

Glasgow doesn't have big Tory strongholds anywhere these days, at council or constituency level.

As for Everton - yes they did have a very nasty fringe in the 80s, it was infamously their "fans" who chucked a banana at John Barnes in what became an (in)famous incident. The ward in Liverpool of that name also returned councillors for a local Protestant Party back in the day.

Everton have never actually played in the Everton district. Goodison Park is in Walton.

[Hnv1]

There's possibly a case for arguing that Glasgow is even more left-wing than Liverpool - in a lot of places the SNP can't be treated as a straightforward left-of-centre vote, but it's hard to argue for anything else in Glasgow.

I mean, the presence alone of Rangers Football Club is a pretty good counter argument to Glasgow being more leftwing than Liverpool...

The hardcore come from around Glasgow and the coast. Everton had quite a nasty following back in the days so...

I know Rangers have big implantation in Ayshire but they also have a big local following in traditional Protestant districts of Glasgow, in the south  (trace a line from govan hill to the bottom of the city limits). That coincidentally have high Tory numbers...and also go into some rangers supporting pubs in Glasgow with some nice mural-like red hands with UVF stuff and RAF symbols...you'd never see anything like that in Liverpool

Not saying they are plurality in the city. But in general Glasgow has a right wing element you wouldn't see in a city like Liverpool. I have never heard of these right wing evertonians though and am intrigued.

Not sure which (Black) player it was, but in his autobiography he wrote about how Goodison was the nastiest ground he’s been to in the top flight. I believe him, the Gwladys end terrace was so white back then you would have thought it was the Shed End. Though tbf NF were all over back then, I remember small packs of them even at the lane.

I suppose a lot of them left Liverpool proper to what is now Liverpool city region.

I’m also not sure IRA flags makes you left wing rather than a bellend. Govan hill and the area has 20% Tory voting. Anyway I don’t think Glasgow is that left wing, simply poor and anti Tory (or the new English Tory), but it’s not Rangers that makes them less left wing.

[CumbrianLefty]

So what would your definition of "left wing" be if not primarily based on voting behaviour?

[Zinneke]

There's possibly a case for arguing that Glasgow is even more left-wing than Liverpool - in a lot of places the SNP can't be treated as a straightforward left-of-centre vote, but it's hard to argue for anything else in Glasgow.

I mean, the presence alone of Rangers Football Club is a pretty good counter argument to Glasgow being more leftwing than Liverpool...

The hardcore come from around Glasgow and the coast. Everton had quite a nasty following back in the days so...

I know Rangers have big implantation in Ayshire but they also have a big local following in traditional Protestant districts of Glasgow, in the south  (trace a line from govan hill to the bottom of the city limits). That coincidentally have high Tory numbers...and also go into some rangers supporting pubs in Glasgow with some nice mural-like red hands with UVF stuff and RAF symbols...you'd never see anything like that in Liverpool

Not saying they are plurality in the city. But in general Glasgow has a right wing element you wouldn't see in a city like Liverpool. I have never heard of these right wing evertonians though and am intrigued.

Not sure which (Black) player it was, but in his autobiography he wrote about how Goodison was the nastiest ground he’s been to in the top flight. I believe him, the Gwladys end terrace was so white back then you would have thought it was the Shed End. Though tbf NF were all over back then, I remember small packs of them even at the lane.

I suppose a lot of them left Liverpool proper to what is now Liverpool city region.

I’m also not sure IRA flags makes you left wing rather than a bellend. Govan hill and the area has 20% Tory voting. Anyway I don’t think Glasgow is that left wing, simply poor and anti Tory (or the new English Tory), but it’s not Rangers that makes them less left wing.

Agree that there's a certain amount of "bellend-ry" about the sectarian divide in Glasgow and IRA/UVF symbols that probably isn't really about left-right politics. I imagine Rangers have a fair few Labour supporters as it's still fundamentally working class.

So what would your definition of "left wing" be if not primarily based on voting behaviour?

I guess my main argument is precisely non-psepholigical and more about the soul of the city in the sense that there's an aspect of Glasgow's history and one side of its culture that has what I would consider to be pretty right-wing culture, despite the city itself now being extremely progressive now. Contrast to Barcelona's identity or Livorno, Bologna, Bremen (even Hamburg despite it being bling bling in parts). Be interesting to see if that translates into a more historic Tory vote in the old districts back when they were a serious force in Scotland and how it withered away.

[Cassius]

Funny thing about Liverpool is that it used to be (a long time ago) a Tory stronghold; they had the upper hand in the city from the mid 19th century pretty much all the way up until 1945 and even in that year they still held onto a few seats in the city, including constituencies that are now overwhelmingly Labour. Indeed, as far as I’m aware, they pretty much swept the board in the city in almost every election from 1885 to the 1920’s (with the exception of Liverpool Scotland, which amusingly enough was represented by an Irish Nationalist who had previously been elected in Galway).

Back to the question in hand, I’d certainly say that Liverpool is hands down the most Labour city in the UK, by a country mile. Whether or not it’s the most ‘left wing’ is, I guess, more of a subjective judgement. A lot of the towns with big student and ‘alternative’ populations, like Bristol, are pretty left wing these days and return Labour MP’s by big margins but that’s, generally speaking, a much more recent state of affairs than it is for Liverpool (whilst Liverpool was shifting to Labour in the 1980’s, Bristol went the other way and kicked Tony Benn out of the Commons in 1983). Of course, for towns like Bristol there’s a big image vs reality gap between the perception of them as left-wing hotspots and the reality on the ground.

[Hnv1]

Funny thing about Liverpool is that it used to be (a long time ago) a Tory stronghold; they had the upper hand in the city from the mid 19th century pretty much all the way up until 1945 and even in that year they still held onto a few seats in the city, including constituencies that are now overwhelmingly Labour. Indeed, as far as I’m aware, they pretty much swept the board in the city in almost every election from 1885 to the 1920’s (with the exception of Liverpool Scotland, which amusingly enough was represented by an Irish Nationalist who had previously been elected in Galway).

Back to the question in hand, I’d certainly say that Liverpool is hands down the most Labour city in the UK, by a country mile. Whether or not it’s the most ‘left wing’ is, I guess, more of a subjective judgement. A lot of the towns with big student and ‘alternative’ populations, like Bristol, are pretty left wing these days and return Labour MP’s by big margins but that’s, generally speaking, a much more recent state of affairs than it is for Liverpool (whilst Liverpool was shifting to Labour in the 1980’s, Bristol went the other way and kicked Tony Benn out of the Commons in 1983). Of course, for towns like Bristol there’s a big image vs reality gap between the perception of them as left-wing hotspots and the reality on the ground.

It was a direct response to the Irish Nationalist being strong there and even having an MP. Changed with the population changing.

Funny enough Liverpool is one of the only places the old Liberal Party still operates

[Filuwaúrdjan]

What does it even mean to be 'left-wing' in 2020? You could have asked this question in 1920 or 1960, even, and I think everyone would have agreed on definitions, even if they might have chosen slightly different answers. But now?

[Blair]

Liverpool did have a Liberal Democrat council irrc; although I assume that was due to the historic issues with the Labour ran council.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Perhaps Liverpool, not only due to its Labour margins, but due to the extent that socialism/anti-Toryism is wrapped up with the city’s identity.

There is a widespread distrust and dislike of the Conservative Party that is deeper and wider than found anywhere else, that is true. Partially, I think, because it is entirely reciprocated. But I would have to dispute that socialism (whatever that means these days) is any more embedded into the culture of Liverpool than any other English industrial city. The city council was controlled until a decade ago by a pretty right-wing LibDem administration, one that had a large majority until its last few years.

[EastAnglianLefty]

Liverpool did have a Liberal Democrat council irrc; although I assume that was due to the historic issues with the Labour ran council.

That, and Labour's general struggles in local government in big cities under Blair.

Incidentally, one of the Lib Dem councillors when they had a majority is these days a DUP councillor in Northern Ireland.

[CumbrianLefty]

And the Liverpool LibDems certainly weren't *all* right wing when they ran the council.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

And the Liverpool LibDems certainly weren't *all* right wing when they ran the council.

Oh, their individual councillors were all over the place! A hilarious crew of misfits and oddballs; don't think you could really categorise them if you tried. But the administration itself was very much an officer-dominated centre-right one - as was typical of LibDem city administrations in the 90s and 00s - and its electoral appeal was based on anti-Liverpool Labour sentiment and little else.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

Moscow.

[kaoras]

What about Copenhagen

[CumbrianLefty]

A lot of the towns with big student and ‘alternative’ populations, like Bristol, are pretty left wing these days and return Labour MP’s by big margins but that’s, generally speaking, a much more recent state of affairs than it is for Liverpool (whilst Liverpool was shifting to Labour in the 1980’s, Bristol went the other way and kicked Tony Benn out of the Commons in 1983)

Bristol's best election for the Tories wasn't actually 1983 but 1987 - increased majorities in E and NW and came close to winning S. The transformation since then has been pretty astonishing.

(only West went less Tory against the trend, something of a canary in the coalmine in retrospect)

[Mr. Illini]

It is kind of interesting reading about a right wing Everton fan base. I've always heard that their fan base today is one of the most left in the league.

[mgop]

Probably Hamburg.

[LabourJersey]

It is kind of interesting reading about a right wing Everton fan base. I've always heard that their fan base today is one of the most left in the league.

I think it's more appearing to be right-wing in a pretty leftist area like Merseyside. There were probably pockets of skinhead supporters for the club, but not among the mainstream supporters. I think that's very different from right-wing support in a place like Millwall, to use an extreme example.

Also I think the Celtic/Rangers divide isn't quite as political nowadays as you'd think. I remember visiting a museum in Glasgow that had a "Voices of Glasgow" exhibit and it had little interviews of citizens. One of them was a 16-year old girl of Pakistani descent, who went to Catholic school & was a proud Rangers fan! 

[EastAnglianLefty]

It is kind of interesting reading about a right wing Everton fan base. I've always heard that their fan base today is one of the most left in the league.

I think it's more appearing to be right-wing in a pretty leftist area like Merseyside. There were probably pockets of skinhead supporters for the club, but not among the mainstream supporters. I think that's very different from right-wing support in a place like Millwall, to use an extreme example.

Not sure what you mean about Millwall? Both Millwall itself and the area where they've traditionally played are fairly strongly left-wing areas. But that's not really relevant, because football support doesn't have much to do with geographic location, especially where the ultras of big-city clubs are concerned - they tend to be the well-off grandchildren of people who fled the area before ethnic minority populations even arrived.

[afleitch]

In the UK, clearly Derry. Then Belfast and Glasgow.

The arguments for Belfast and Derry should speak for themselves.

Regardless of what you think about the SNP, prior to 2017, Labour controlled the Glasgow from 1952 with only two periods of interruption; 1968-1971 and 1977-1979 after two sets of disastrous results for Labour. It's had Green representation since 1999 and 15% of the vote for the SSP in 2003 (prior to their collapse)

[afleitch]

There's possibly a case for arguing that Glasgow is even more left-wing than Liverpool - in a lot of places the SNP can't be treated as a straightforward left-of-centre vote, but it's hard to argue for anything else in Glasgow.

I mean, the presence alone of Rangers Football Club is a pretty good counter argument to Glasgow being more leftwing than Liverpool...

The hardcore come from around Glasgow and the coast. Everton had quite a nasty following back in the days so...

I know Rangers have big implantation in Ayshire but they also have a big local following in traditional Protestant districts of Glasgow, in the south  (trace a line from govan hill to the bottom of the city limits). That coincidentally have high Tory numbers...and also go into some rangers supporting pubs in Glasgow with some nice mural-like red hands with UVF stuff and RAF symbols...you'd never see anything like that in Liverpool

Not saying they are plurality in the city. But in general Glasgow has a right wing element you wouldn't see in a city like Liverpool. I have never heard of these right wing evertonians though and am intrigued.

Rangers is not a proxy for 'right wing' in the traditional sense. Nor is Orangism.

[Zinneke]

It is kind of interesting reading about a right wing Everton fan base. I've always heard that their fan base today is one of the most left in the league.

I think it's more appearing to be right-wing in a pretty leftist area like Merseyside. There were probably pockets of skinhead supporters for the club, but not among the mainstream supporters. I think that's very different from right-wing support in a place like Millwall, to use an extreme example.

Not sure what you mean about Millwall? Both Millwall itself and the area where they've traditionally played are fairly strongly left-wing areas. But that's not really relevant, because football support doesn't have much to do with geographic location, especially where the ultras of big-city clubs are concerned - they tend to be the well-off grandchildren of people who fled the area before ethnic minority populations even arrived.

My mate in London says there are more Millwall supporters in Romford than Bermondsey these days, and that Millwall tend to attract more from outside their geographical area by reputation alone than most London clubs.

There's possibly a case for arguing that Glasgow is even more left-wing than Liverpool - in a lot of places the SNP can't be treated as a straightforward left-of-centre vote, but it's hard to argue for anything else in Glasgow.

I mean, the presence alone of Rangers Football Club is a pretty good counter argument to Glasgow being more leftwing than Liverpool...

The hardcore come from around Glasgow and the coast. Everton had quite a nasty following back in the days so...

I know Rangers have big implantation in Ayshire but they also have a big local following in traditional Protestant districts of Glasgow, in the south  (trace a line from govan hill to the bottom of the city limits). That coincidentally have high Tory numbers...and also go into some rangers supporting pubs in Glasgow with some nice mural-like red hands with UVF stuff and RAF symbols...you'd never see anything like that in Liverpool

Not saying they are plurality in the city. But in general Glasgow has a right wing element you wouldn't see in a city like Liverpool. I have never heard of these right wing evertonians though and am intrigued.

Rangers is not a proxy for 'right wing' in the traditional sense. Nor is Orangism.

Well as a Scot from Glasgow you're the authority on that but Orangism/Loyalism for me was always a good proxy for right-wing.

 

(the irony of fascist salutes with the israel flag)

[afleitch]

If you mean right-wing in the economic sense then no, Rangers fans are not right-wing. Even in polling before the 2014 referendum IIRC, both Celtic and Rangers fans had more Yes than No supporters in correlation with their working class and generally Scottish base (No support was higher amongst those who were fans of other clubs or didn't really care for football that much)

There' a great degree of 'performance' amongst fans related to symbolism (Union Jack v Tricolour, Israel v Palestine) that often makes little sense to all but vocal and often unpopular fans in their fan base, but I don't think that translates into anything meaningful politically in Glasgow.

I get knots in my stomach 'defending' Huns but I have to in this instance

[𝕭𝖆𝖕𝖙𝖎𝖘𝖙𝖆 𝕸𝖎𝖓𝖔𝖑𝖆]

I've not been there to confirm, but I gather Bologna has a fairly leftwing reputation.

Bologna is probably the most left-wing city in Italy, with an old Communist Party tradition and a large university, but I am not sure it is comparable to Liverpool and the other British cities that are getting discussed.