Do you think the Left has an anti-Semitism problem?

[John Dule]

Yes, it clearly does.

Criticism of Israel, of course, is not antisemitism. However, calling for the destruction of Israel is.

While there is a connection, calling for the end of Israel doesn’t mean you have an aversion or hatred of Jews anymore than calling for the end of South Africa or Rhodesia in the 1980’s is Anti-European/Anti-White.

If you want to model reform in Israel off of South Africa, that's fine. If you want to model it after what happened in Rhodesia, then yes, you might be an anti-Semite.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Not "the left" on a whole, but wokeness/intersectionality definitely does:

https://twitter.com/ebonitapplebum/status/1283396097944190979?s=19

[PSOL]

Yeah, anti-Semitism is a problem with a lot of people, including many normally progressive-minded people who should know better.

While it certainly isn’t anti-Semitic to criticize Israel’s government over the treatment of Palestinians (I wish there would be a two-state solution), anti-Zionists are at least very insensitive to the Holocaust and other atrocities the Jewish people have experienced over millennia, and fail to understand the need for Jews to have their own country.

What? Most left wing circles absolutely want to prevent another genocide of that scale and have been on the frontlines being those who disagree with Holocaust denial and protection of fascistic movements by the institutions worldwide.

Also, most on the left don’t disagree that there should be a Jewish homeland, just that the homeland shouldn’t be an undemocratic, bad-acting ethnostate in such a diverse region.

Well then it’s a nice silver lining that there are so many good-acting democracies in the Middle East!

We’re talking about Israel here, not the rest of the region.

Not "the left" on a whole, but wokeness/intersectionality definitely does:

https://twitter.com/ebonitapplebum/status/1283396097944190979?s=19

No major Leftist circle smears and stereotypes Jewish people either in academia or in online discourse. Some literally who isn’t exactly convincing here.

Edit: also,“ wokeness/intersectionality left” never change BRTD, never change

[Horus]

Yeah, anti-Semitism is a problem with a lot of people, including many normally progressive-minded people who should know better.

While it certainly isn’t anti-Semitic to criticize Israel’s government over the treatment of Palestinians (I wish there would be a two-state solution), anti-Zionists are at least very insensitive to the Holocaust and other atrocities the Jewish people have experienced over millennia, and fail to understand the need for Jews to have their own country.

What? Most left wing circles absolutely want to prevent another genocide of that scale and have been on the frontlines being those who disagree with Holocaust denial and protection of fascistic movements by the institutions worldwide.

Also, most on the left don’t disagree that there should be a Jewish homeland, just that the homeland shouldn’t be an undemocratic, bad-acting ethnostate in such a diverse region.

No, maybe not most, but there are people (on both the left and the right) who believe that Israel shouldn't exist in the Mideast.  Many of those people are not necessarily holocaust-deniers or Jew-haters (though some are) but if they're not anti-Semitic, they are insensitive because they don't understand that Jews should have a homeland as a security against persecution.  

We do have that, it's called the United States.

[Horus]

Btw, I love how certain posters find a random black person making a nasty statement on twitter and imply that person is speaking for "the left" or is even part of "the left."

Just because you're black doesn't make you left wing. Just because you use woke terminology doesn't make you left wing. White nationalism and black nationalism are both inherently right wing movements.

[PSOL]

Btw, I love how certain posters find a random black person making a nasty statement on twitter and imply that person is speaking for "the left" or is even part of "the left."

Just because you're black doesn't make you left wing. Just because you use woke terminology doesn't make you left wing. White nationalism and black nationalism are both inherently right wing movements.

Well, certain strands of Black Nationalism supported by the NoI and other African American religious cults are, that and what the BLA came to be. The BPP and other likeminded groups are ostensibly not a right-wing movement.

[Cassandra]

Btw, I love how certain posters find a random black person making a nasty statement on twitter and imply that person is speaking for "the left" or is even part of "the left."

Just because you're black doesn't make you left wing. Just because you use woke terminology doesn't make you left wing. White nationalism and black nationalism are both inherently right wing movements.

Well, certain strands of Black Nationalism supported by the NoI and other African American religious cults are, that and what the BLA came to be. The BPP and other likeminded groups are ostensibly not a right-wing movement.

I'm partial to the argument that nationalism is inherently reactionary. I'm aware of the Maoist-Third-Worldist argument that nationalism of oppressed peoples is not reactionary, but I find that difficult to swallow, especially when pluralist anti-colonial models like Rojava's Democratic Communalism exist.

[Brother Jonathan]

Yes, it clearly does.

Criticism of Israel, of course, is not antisemitism. However, calling for the destruction of Israel is.

While there is a connection, calling for the end of Israel doesn’t mean you have an aversion or hatred of Jews anymore than calling for the end of South Africa or Rhodesia in the 1980’s is Anti-European/Anti-White.

If you want to model reform in Israel off of South Africa, that's fine. If you want to model it after what happened in Rhodesia, then yes, you might be an anti-Semite.

There is also a major difference between calling for the end of a white/European minority government living in a world full of white/European majority states versus calling for an end to a Jewish majority state, the only of its kind in the world.

[PSOL]

Yes, it clearly does.

Criticism of Israel, of course, is not antisemitism. However, calling for the destruction of Israel is.

While there is a connection, calling for the end of Israel doesn’t mean you have an aversion or hatred of Jews anymore than calling for the end of South Africa or Rhodesia in the 1980’s is Anti-European/Anti-White.

If you want to model reform in Israel off of South Africa, that's fine. If you want to model it after what happened in Rhodesia, then yes, you might be an anti-Semite.

There is also a major difference between calling for the end of white/European minority government living in a world full of white/European majority states versus calling for an end to a Jewish majority state, the only of its kind in the world.

The only reason Israel is a Jewish majority is due to them not having the political capital to annex and handle the populations of Gaza and the West Bank. Totaling it in its basically a split.

Does the second-class citizenship and poor treatment of the Palestinian, Armenian, Druze, and Bedouin communities just vanish to accommodate the so-called security concerns of Israel? Or it’s geopolitical actions abroad, from aiding in security software in Bolivia to the previous aid given to South Africa and Rhodesia during the Cold War? These are the criticisms Israel gets for its actions often impeding on international laws and norms  by the Left. I don’t see where the argument that pointing that out and opposing it is antisemitic, there’s nothing there to even stretch it to that conclusion

[Brother Jonathan]

Yes, it clearly does.

Criticism of Israel, of course, is not antisemitism. However, calling for the destruction of Israel is.

While there is a connection, calling for the end of Israel doesn’t mean you have an aversion or hatred of Jews anymore than calling for the end of South Africa or Rhodesia in the 1980’s is Anti-European/Anti-White.

If you want to model reform in Israel off of South Africa, that's fine. If you want to model it after what happened in Rhodesia, then yes, you might be an anti-Semite.

There is also a major difference between calling for the end of white/European minority government living in a world full of white/European majority states versus calling for an end to a Jewish majority state, the only of its kind in the world.

The only reason Israel is a Jewish majority is due to them not having the political capital to annex and handle the populations of Gaza and the West Bank. Totaling it in its basically a split.

Does the second-class citizenship and poor treatment of the Palestinian, Armenian, Druze, and Bedouin communities just vanish to accommodate the so-called security concerns of Israel? Or it’s geopolitical actions abroad, from aiding in security software in Bolivia to the previous aid given to South Africa and Rhodesia during the Cold War? These are the criticisms Israel gets for its actions often impeding on international laws and norms  by the Left.

And those are critiques of Israeli policy worthy of debate. But to compare concerns about anti-Zionism being anti-Semitic to concerns about anti-Apartheid activity being anti-white or anti-European is rather misguided when one considers the relative positions of the nations involved.

I also don't think, to the question of the thread, that the left has any more of a problem with anti-Semitism than the right in most countries, but I do think it is a problem on the fringes of both for various reasons and in different ways.

[John Dule]

There is also a major difference between calling for the end of a white/European minority government living in a world full of white/European majority states versus calling for an end to a Jewish majority state, the only of its kind in the world.

Of course. But I was saying that if you want what happened to the white Rhodesians to happen to the Jewish Israelis, then what you basically want is to force them out of their land.

[PSOL]

There is also a major difference between calling for the end of a white/European minority government living in a world full of white/European majority states versus calling for an end to a Jewish majority state, the only of its kind in the world.

Of course. But I was saying that if you want what happened to the white Rhodesians to happen to the Jewish Israelis, then what you basically want is to force them out of their land.

Compared to the other decolonized nations of Southern Africa—South Africa, Namibia, Botswana, Malawi, and arguably Mozambique now—Zimbabwe stands oddly alone as the only state that is purely a dictatorship. In all other cases, the White population has remained with the same rights as the majority population and has in fact prospered from decolonization.

[Brother Jonathan]

There is also a major difference between calling for the end of a white/European minority government living in a world full of white/European majority states versus calling for an end to a Jewish majority state, the only of its kind in the world.

Of course. But I was saying that if you want what happened to the white Rhodesians to happen to the Jewish Israelis, then what you basically want is to force them out of their land.

Right, and I agree with your point, jut not the underlying comparison it was a response to.

I generally dislike comparisons of Israel to colonial states, because by making such comparisons the long history of Jews in Israel/Palestine is largely negated, and legitimate and deep seated Jewish connections (both religious and historical) to Israel are undermined and minimized.

[PSOL]

There is also a major difference between calling for the end of a white/European minority government living in a world full of white/European majority states versus calling for an end to a Jewish majority state, the only of its kind in the world.

Of course. But I was saying that if you want what happened to the white Rhodesians to happen to the Jewish Israelis, then what you basically want is to force them out of their land.

Right, and I agree with your point, jut not the underlying comparison it was a response to.

I generally dislike comparisons of Israel to colonial states, because by making such comparisons the long history of Jews in Israel/Palestine is largely negated, and legitimate and deep seated Jewish connections (both religious and historical) to Israel are undermined and minimized.

So do the Palestinian and Armenians in Jerusalem have a case that the land is their homeland too, and such is the case if the situation was flipped, Leftists would condemn those acts as well.

Furthermore, is it really justified to deny that religious minorities belong in that land and be so hostile to them, all in the name of “security” or the laughable religious argument that the land belongs solely to one people?

[Brother Jonathan]

There is also a major difference between calling for the end of a white/European minority government living in a world full of white/European majority states versus calling for an end to a Jewish majority state, the only of its kind in the world.

Of course. But I was saying that if you want what happened to the white Rhodesians to happen to the Jewish Israelis, then what you basically want is to force them out of their land.

Right, and I agree with your point, jut not the underlying comparison it was a response to.

I generally dislike comparisons of Israel to colonial states, because by making such comparisons the long history of Jews in Israel/Palestine is largely negated, and legitimate and deep seated Jewish connections (both religious and historical) to Israel are undermined and minimized.

So do the Palestinian and Armenians in Jerusalem have a case that the land is their homeland too, and such is the case if the situation was flipped, Leftists would condemn those acts as well.

Furthermore, is it really justified to deny that religious minorities belong in that land and be so hostile to them, all in the name of “security” or the laughable religious argument that the land belongs solely to one people?

With some exceptions it is broadly agreed that a Palestinian state should exist as well. The two state solution remains the bedrock of the peace process (or what is left of it, anyway), and with good reason. So I think that it is wrong to say Israel is a colonial state when it is so central to Jewish history and identity, and recognizing that centrality is not incompatible with a belief that there should be a Palestinian state as well.

And the security concerns may seem pointless to us, but we aren't the ones living under the constant specter of rocket barrage from a strip of land that we unilaterally disengaged from in hopes of moving the peace process further. Of course the West Bank isn't going to turn into the Gaza Strip, but I can understand why everyday Israelis are worried that it will. Security concerns of course don't justify the abuse of Palestinian civilians, but the general situation at present is such that Israelis are concerned, and not without reason. Again, from our vantage point these security concerns may seem pointless or overblown, but they stem from legitimate concerns, the result of real world experiences.

We should probably have a separate thread for discussions on Israel and Palestine at this point, honestly, as that's where this discussion is now. Not that I don't think these discussions can't or shouldn't continue here.

[PSOL]

There is also a major difference between calling for the end of a white/European minority government living in a world full of white/European majority states versus calling for an end to a Jewish majority state, the only of its kind in the world.

Of course. But I was saying that if you want what happened to the white Rhodesians to happen to the Jewish Israelis, then what you basically want is to force them out of their land.

Right, and I agree with your point, jut not the underlying comparison it was a response to.

I generally dislike comparisons of Israel to colonial states, because by making such comparisons the long history of Jews in Israel/Palestine is largely negated, and legitimate and deep seated Jewish connections (both religious and historical) to Israel are undermined and minimized.

So do the Palestinian and Armenians in Jerusalem have a case that the land is their homeland too, and such is the case if the situation was flipped, Leftists would condemn those acts as well.

Furthermore, is it really justified to deny that religious minorities belong in that land and be so hostile to them, all in the name of “security” or the laughable religious argument that the land belongs solely to one people?

With some exceptions it is broadly agreed that a Palestinian state should exist as well. The two state solution remains the bedrock of the peace process (or what is left of it, anyway), and with good reason. So I think that it is wrong to say Israel is a colonial state when it is so central to Jewish history and identity, and recognizing that centrality is not incompatible with a belief that there should be a Palestinian state as well.

And the security concerns may seem pointless to us, but we aren't the ones living under the constant specter of rocket barrage from a strip of land that we unilaterally disengaged from in hopes of moving the peace process further. Of course the West Bank isn't going to turn into the Gaza Strip, but I can understand why everyday Israelis are worried that it will. Security concerns of course don't justify the abuse of Palestinian civilians, but the general situation at present is such that Israelis are concerned, and not without reason. Again, from our vantage point these security concerns may seem pointless or overblown, but they stem from legitimate concerns, the result of real world experiences.

We should probably have a separate thread for discussions on Israel and Palestine at this point, honestly, as that's where this discussion is now. Not that I don't think these discussions can't or shouldn't continue here.

I won’t reply to your points in this thread to not further get on track. For that, yeah, we need another thread.

[buritobr]

No!

Hating Netanyahu doesn't mean hating jews

[parochial boy]

There is also a major difference between calling for the end of a white/European minority government living in a world full of white/European majority states versus calling for an end to a Jewish majority state, the only of its kind in the world.

Of course. But I was saying that if you want what happened to the white Rhodesians to happen to the Jewish Israelis, then what you basically want is to force them out of their land.

Compared to the other decolonized nations of Southern Africa—South Africa, Namibia, Botswana, Malawi, and arguably Mozambique now—Zimbabwe stands oddly alone as the only state that is purely a dictatorship. In all other cases, the White population has remained with the same rights as the majority population and has in fact prospered from decolonization.

eSwatini is a troll level awful dictatoship, Malawi and Zambia have been on long and rocky roads post-independence and Mozambique is a dictatorship whose white population almost entirely decamped to South Africa (it's why, for instance, Nando's exists) as the country fell into a long and brutal civil (and proxy cold) war after it became independence.

There is also the difference that Rhodesia tried to implement white minority rule, and it's the only on, bar South Africa, and arguably Namibia, which ever had more than a minute white population (the demographics of white Rhodesians was also quite noticeably different to whites in what is now Zambia or Malawi or Kenya; in particular more middle-class urbanites, who didn't exist in the other countries). That is what pulled Rhodesia into the bush war in the first place (similar story with the Namibian war of independence) and meant that questions of land ownership and the place of the white minority became more politically tenacious. Namibia, by all accounts has done better though.

Not that it's particularly relevant to the topic at hand, but the particular history of white people in Southern Africa makes it a pretty unhelpful point of comparison with Israel. There is for instance, no serious desire to have anything like a two-state solution in South Africa, even the Volkstaat is in practice a fringe movement.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Kinda telling that this thread turned into reflexive defensiveness from some re:criticizing Israel.

If you really cared about Palestinians, you would target your ire at the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah and their paymasters and work on delegitimizing them. They, and other terrorist groups in the region and their international apologists, are more responsible than anyone else for the problems in Israel-Palestine and the continued suffering of Palestinians.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Jean-Luc Mélenchon has just gone off on a rant about Christ-killing Jews live on national television.

..........................................................................................

[PSOL]

Kinda telling that this thread turned into reflexive defensiveness from some re:criticizing Israel.

If you really cared about Palestinians, you would target your ire at the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah and their paymasters and work on delegitimizing them. They, and other terrorist groups in the region and their international apologists, are more responsible than anyone else for the problems in Israel-Palestine and the continued suffering of Palestinians.

Hezbollah is a Lebanese Shia paramilitary organization and not even the Left likes Hamas. They get ample amount of criticism both within the Palestinian liberatio movement and outside of it, but they’re not relevant as something like the Israeli state which has international implications on barring at least a two state solution. Furthermore, we’re talking about that this argument always just stems from opposition to Israel.

The focus on Israel is pretty easy considering that is the honestly only attack used to say that the “Left is Antisemitic”. There’s virtually nothing else, given in part that the Left doesn’t exactly scapegoat and support the oppression of Jews or marginalized groups as often proponented by the right currently. So then, the question is why would opposing the actions of Israel be antisemitic? The answers are usually poor, and it’s honestly usually just a modified version of “Anti-Segregation is Anti White” or that the Left hates Jews like they hated white people in Southern Africa or whatever circular arguments there is. It’s a myth propagated by neocons and grifted further due to weird diaspora-like nationalism and focus on heritage like how Indian and Pakistani diaspora defend Modi or Imran Khan at every turn.

[PSOL]

Jean-Luc Mélenchon has just gone off on a rant about Christ-killing Jews live on national television.

..........................................................................................

Gee, you found one controversial figure, one that isn’t even liked among the leftists of all stripes in France. That means squat given that the absolute majority of circles don’t do this behavior

Also, y’all forgot to link a source.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Jean-Luc Mélenchon has just gone off on a rant about Christ-killing Jews live on national television.

..........................................................................................

Gee, you found one controversial figure, one that isn’t even liked among the leftists of all stripes in France. That means squat given that the absolute majority of circles don’t do this behavior

Also, y’all forgot to link a source.

He almost qualified for the runoff and was for a while the de facto leader of the French left (before he collapsed under the weight of his own ego). And as someone who's familiar with the French left, I can tell you he's hardly an isolated case.

I couldn't find a source in English, but I did find it in French.

[jaymichaud]

Yes, and anti-zionism is anti-semitism.

[Xing]

Yes, obviously, and while criticizing Israel isn’t antisemitic, there is definitely a portion of the left (a small one, but it exists) which goes much further than mere “criticism.”