Feds denies funds for Minneapolis rebuild

[Frodo]

Minneapolis (and Minnesota) should not give in to blackmail until the police department is fundamentally reformed, preferably as part of a federal package of police reforms passed by a Democratic Congress and a Democratic President.  Or else we are going to go through this vicious cycle yet again for the next several decades if Donald Trump and the Fuzzy Bears of this world have their way.  

[Fuzzy Bear]

Minneapolis (and Minnesota) should not give in to blackmail until the police department is fundamentally reformed.  Or else we are going to go through this vicious cycle yet again for the next several decades if Donald Trump and Fuzzy Bear have their way.  

The police aren't the problem.  Individual officers are the problem.  The idea that there is this epidemic of young, unarmed, black males being criminally killed by police is a lie.  The idea that there are significant numbers of young black males killed in significant numbers in their own communities is not a lie; the main threat to Black Lives in major cities is the criminal activities of other members of their communities. 

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/06/the-sole-justification-offered-for-the-riots-is-a-fiction/

This is not supported by the data. Last year, according to the Washington Post’s database of police-involved shootings, nine unarmed black people were shot and killed by the police, compared to 19 unarmed white people. Assuming that the use of lethal force was unjustified in each of those nine cases — not always a safe assumption — the resulting deaths are no less tragic for being so statistically improbable. We rightly fear the specter of Islamic terror, even as it has claimed relatively few domestic victims in the post-9/11 epoch. But this problem — the use of lethal force by police against unarmed black suspects — is not nearly of the scope that the rioters and their enablers would have us believe.

https://www.nationalreview.com/magazine/2019/12/22/the-need-to-discuss-black-on-black-crime/

The reason we focus more on black-on-black violence nowadays is not racism but rather its significance to the crime problem in the United States. Presumably this is why Abt has written an entire book on the subject. Black violent crime was a major factor in the post-1960s crime tsunami and persisted even after the wave began to ebb in the 1990s. From 2000 to 2015, the mean African-American homicide-victimization rate, adjusted for age, was 20.1 per 100,000. That’s more than three times the Hispanic rate of 6.4 (despite disadvantages comparable to those of blacks) and over seven times the average white rate, 2.7. Moreover, as already noted, from 1976 to 2005, 94 percent of the killers of black murder victims were other African Americans. In short, this is about exceptionally high as well as overwhelmingly intraracial black violent crime. White-on-white homicide is equally intraracial, but, as Abt knows, the rates are not astronomically high.

The narratives pushed as justification for the current Marxist Riots are simply not factual.  In truth, no one really believes it, but the media and the liberal blogosphere are bent on driving this narrative.

We will not go through this vicious cycle again if the persons in the streets decide to obey the law.  Reforms in some areas are unreasonable but the idea of abolishing police is beyond ridiculous.  And if our media wishes to drive the sort of narrative they have been driving, they need to honestly present the big statistical picture which does not support the current False Narrative.

[Frodo]

Are you seriously citing the National Review as a source? 

[Fuzzy Bear]

Are you seriously citing the National Review as a source? 

Absolutely. 

And those sources are factual.

[Frodo]

Now for those not as blinkered:

Collective bargaining agreements for police officers provide protections that stand in the way of accountability, experts say
Killing of George Floyd by a Minneapolis officer ignited protests and calls for change, but experts say police contracts threaten to undermine those efforts

[Frodo]

snip

Just so everyone knows, this is the same National Review that gave life to a conspiracy theory regarding President Obama's birthplace, and that suggested his parents had to be communists because there is no way a white woman and a black man would get together in the late 1950s unless they were into communist politics.  

This is also the same National Review that has consistently rejected the scientific consensus on anthropogenic climate change.  

The fact that Fuzzy Bear takes their word as gospel should tell you all you need to know about him.  

[Fuzzy Bear]

Now for those not as blinkered:

Collective bargaining agreements for police officers provide protections that stand in the way of accountability, experts say
Killing of George Floyd by a Minneapolis officer ignited protests and calls for change, but experts say police contracts threaten to undermine those efforts

You're fine with similar protections for public school teachers.

No one likes cops until they need one; until the time when THEY are being threatened or victimized.  Then, they expect that police officer to provide affirmative protection for them.  They expect that police officer to do something about the person that vandalized their home, or physically shoved and pushed them in a threatening manner.  They expect the police to do something to ensure that a group of unruly youths don't threaten THEIR kid (or them).  They expect the police to go into harm's way and take into custody people who have committed violent crimes, who pose a danger to others, and who can be presumed to be prepared to violently resist apprehension.  Police officers have lots of reason to view any encounter with a "subject" to go sideways any number of ways, no matter what they do.  Rayshard Brooks spontaneously began to resist a lawful arrest, when there seemed to be no reason to believe that would happen, and he grabbed an officer's taser and shot it at him.  That very few DUI stops go that way doesn't mean that the next one won't.  (And in case you wonder why those officers arrested him, the City of Atlanta would be open to massive  civil liability if, after allowing a drunk man to remain with access to car keys, he later went out and caused death/injury while still drunk.)  

Some people don't want police to do their job.  They want criminals to not be apprehended, for one reason or another.  I've already posted on other threads my views on how there is "overcriminalization" and what can be done.  I've certainly expressed my views on a number of policies that promote "mass incarceration", and I certainly think that we have far too Draconian penalties for too many crimes.  But the people that the residents of the neighborhoods with the most violent crime have the most to fear from are the remorseless criminals that live within their own communities, many of whom are members of violent criminal gangs who are heavily armed.  The statistics of who dies bear this out.  And the persons that would enjoy the most immediate benefit from defunding the police would be the criminal gangs that are causing most of the carnage.

[True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)]

Literally the first job of government is to protect the investments of its citizens and create a stable environment for market interactions. If your property was destroyed in these riots, you should be able to sue the government for your taxes back. They failed to hold up their end of the bargain.

No, literally, the first job of government is to protect its citizens. Protection for investments and markets is decidedly secondary to that. Unfortunately, the failure to put the lives of citizens ahead of "respctin' muh authotitee" on the part of many cops constitutes an ongoing failure on the part of government to uphold its end of the bargain. And despite multiple lawsuits whenever that happens, not much changes, which just helps to demonstrate the inanity of the libertarian idea that torts can replace all other government actions, as the goal here isn't to provide recompense for damages, but to prevent them from happening in the first place.

[Frodo]

Now for those not as blinkered:

Collective bargaining agreements for police officers provide protections that stand in the way of accountability, experts say
Killing of George Floyd by a Minneapolis officer ignited protests and calls for change, but experts say police contracts threaten to undermine those efforts

You're fine with similar protections for public school teachers.

No one likes cops until they need one; until the time when THEY are being threatened or victimized.  Then, they expect that police officer to provide affirmative protection for them.  They expect that police officer to do something about the person that vandalized their home, or physically shoved and pushed them in a threatening manner.  They expect the police to do something to ensure that a group of unruly youths don't threaten THEIR kid (or them).  They expect the police to go into harm's way and take into custody people who have committed violent crimes, who pose a danger to others, and who can be presumed to be prepared to violently resist apprehension.  Police officers have lots of reason to view any encounter with a "subject" to go sideways any number of ways, no matter what they do.  Rayshard Brooks spontaneously began to resist a lawful arrest, when there seemed to be no reason to believe that would happen, and he grabbed an officer's taser and shot it at him.  That very few DUI stops go that way doesn't mean that the next one won't.  (And in case you wonder why those officers arrested him, the City of Atlanta would be open to massive  civil liability if, after allowing a drunk man to remain with access to car keys, he later went out and caused death/injury while still drunk.)  

Some people don't want police to do their job.  They want criminals to not be apprehended, for one reason or another.  I've already posted on other threads my views on how there is "overcriminalization" and what can be done.  I've certainly expressed my views on a number of policies that promote "mass incarceration", and I certainly think that we have far too Draconian penalties for too many crimes.  But the people that the residents of the neighborhoods with the most violent crime have the most to fear from are the remorseless criminals that live within their own communities, many of whom are members of violent criminal gangs who are heavily armed.  The statistics of who dies bear this out.  And the persons that would enjoy the most immediate benefit from defunding the police would be the criminal gangs that are causing most of the carnage.

Thanks, but no thanks. I will take the word and testament of African-American friends and co-workers I personally know over that of a frightened old white man on an internet forum completely oblivious to his white privilege who still thinks its 1969.  And unlike you, I don't view them as potential criminals.  

[R.P. McM]

Dont see a problem with this given this was 100% the failure of the MN Government . Also R.P McM comparing this to damage caused by a natural disaster is hilarious given there is now way you can stop those from happening while the MN government absolutely could have stopped the riots

Um...no?

Yeah, the absurd thing is that the government of MN is expected to plan for unforeseen, unprecedented riots, but the government of FL needs a federal bailout in the event that a hurricane hits Miami. Uh, WTF?

[OSR stands with Israel]

Dont see a problem with this given this was 100% the failure of the MN Government . Also R.P McM comparing this to damage caused by a natural disaster is hilarious given there is now way you can stop those from happening while the MN government absolutely could have stopped the riots

Um...no?

Yeah, the absurd thing is that the government of MN is expected to plan for unforeseen, unprecedented riots, but the government of FL needs a federal bailout in the event that a hurricane hits Miami. Uh, WTF?

It’s called using the national guard from day 1

[R.P. McM]

Dont see a problem with this given this was 100% the failure of the MN Government . Also R.P McM comparing this to damage caused by a natural disaster is hilarious given there is now way you can stop those from happening while the MN government absolutely could have stopped the riots

Um...no?

Yeah, the absurd thing is that the government of MN is expected to plan for unforeseen, unprecedented riots, but the government of FL needs a federal bailout in the event that a hurricane hits Miami. Uh, WTF?

It’s called using the national guard from day 1

Don't lecture me. I was a member of the MN Army National Guard. Our governor was one of the highest ranking enlisted members (CSM). So you have no idea what you're talking about. Walz mobilized the Guard, but it wasn't enough. For a few nights over the course of a century. A freak occurrence, unlike a hurricane in Miami.

[Badger]

Dont see a problem with this given this was 100% the failure of the MN Government . Also R.P McM comparing this to damage caused by a natural disaster is hilarious given there is now way you can stop those from happening while the MN government absolutely could have stopped the riots

Um...no?

Yeah, the absurd thing is that the government of MN is expected to plan for unforeseen, unprecedented riots, but the government of FL needs a federal bailout in the event that a hurricane hits Miami. Uh, WTF?

It’s called using the national guard from day 1

Don't lecture me. I was a member of the MN Army National Guard. Our governor was one of the highest ranking enlisted members (CSM). So you have no idea what you're talking about. Walz mobilized the Guard, but it wasn't enough. For a few nights over the course of a century. A freak occurrence, unlike a hurricane in Miami.

OSR has never been motivated by facts. He pretty much views this as a superhero comic where the National Guard would have gunned down dozens if not hundreds of people and "order" was restored over "the commies".

[R.P. McM]

Dont see a problem with this given this was 100% the failure of the MN Government . Also R.P McM comparing this to damage caused by a natural disaster is hilarious given there is now way you can stop those from happening while the MN government absolutely could have stopped the riots

Um...no?

Yeah, the absurd thing is that the government of MN is expected to plan for unforeseen, unprecedented riots, but the government of FL needs a federal bailout in the event that a hurricane hits Miami. Uh, WTF?

It’s called using the national guard from day 1

Don't lecture me. I was a member of the MN Army National Guard. Our governor was one of the highest ranking enlisted members (CSM). So you have no idea what you're talking about. Walz mobilized the Guard, but it wasn't enough. For a few nights over the course of a century. A freak occurrence, unlike a hurricane in Miami.

OSR has never been motivated by facts. He pretty much views this as a superhero comic where the National Guard would have gunned down dozens if not hundreds of people and "order" was restored over "the commies".

Kent State 2.0. Yeah, what OSR seems not to realize is that the vast majority of part-time soldiers don't receive extensive training in riot control. Far from it — over the course of six years, I believe it was briefly covered in basic training. That's it. Granted, I wasn't a member of the Infantry or Military Police, but neither are the vast, vast majority of MNARNG personnel. Also: we visited the firing range (in order to qualify) once a year. So I'm expected to adeptly handle a loaded weapon I've used maybe two days over the preceding 12 months? It's a recipe for disaster, potentially.