Content Quality, Echo Chambers, and more
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Author Topic: Content Quality, Echo Chambers, and more  (Read 2223 times)
DabbingSanta
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« on: July 11, 2020, 07:39:45 PM »

Hi guys, not sure if this is the right board or not. Feel free to move.

I have noticed that Atlas is becoming more and more like the comments section on Facebook. Lots of partisan nonsense and promoting of party ideologies. Take for example a single poll in Alaska or Arkansas showing Trump ahead by a narrow margin, and see all the pundits posters arguing how it could happen.  Post a poll of Trump ahead in a swing state like Minnesota or Michigan and it will be quickly tossed out as "junk". Not to be offensive, but it seems like lower tier s***posting by people who lack critical thinking skills. On the Alaska poll thread, I pointed out the notable polling error the state had in 2016 and how you really should not put much faith in to one poll, and I was told that the agency that did the poll did a great job in 2014! How on earth does general election polling compare to a gubernational polling from six years ago. I mean... really? Does anyone believe that!

My point is, it seems like we are becoming an echo chamber, and I think it's scaring away lots of very intelligent top quality posters who might differ on opinion. I personally can't bring myself to even read the 2020 board or general discussion. It's just so much political narrative twisting I feel like I'm on a CNN panel or Twitter feed. All the one liners, "burns", and cancel culture. Just look at the Talk Elections Q&A board, and all the petitions to ban various users for posting something someone found offensive. Like too bad so sad, it's not like the moderators aren't doing their jobs and banning trolls! I feel like if we sat back, stopped treating politics like sports or tribalism, and began top tier critical analysis, we'd all be way better off.  There's nothing wrong with having opinions, but it gets so frustrating to read the same drivel. Toss up Arkansas this, "Georgia will flip before ___" that. Who cares?

 I think if you took a sample size of the American public vs people on this board and you'll realize how skewed things really are. If you look at the mock election results, Hillary won Atlas 58-22. Our community skews liberal and has since I've been here. But I swear the quality of the posts has gone downhill? Maybe it's a result of our increasing hyper partisan culture, where we view people of political opposition with more disdain than (insert evil person here). I've noticed this sort of thing carrying out on the real world too. Have never lost friends because of politics until this year, now it's five and counting. Also have seen people I know publicly call out their friends for "being racist" (not supporting BLM) on social media and literally cancelling them. What a bloody mess.

I wish everyone well, but I think I might take a break for a bit and stick to predictions. All the punditry is getting tiresome. Where's the quality analysis I came for in the first place?
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Holy Unifying Centrist
DTC
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« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2020, 01:18:40 PM »

I agree with you that I wish the quality of discourse was better. I think the quality of discussions on the main Atlas discord are generally better when it comes to social conversations, but on economic conversations, it still has a very clear bias to the leftwing. Part of that is my fault.

Even though this forum does not have particularly intellectual conversations, it's still better than the vast majority of politics forums or online conversations. We just don't live in a culture filled with intellectual nuance. Few people have the bandwidth to have these conversations given how hard the economic conditions are and how toxic the national culture is right now.
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Skunk
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« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2020, 11:14:58 PM »

I think one of the main reasons for decline in content quality has to do a lot with the recommend feature. I'll be the first to admit that my effort I put into posting is considerably lower than it was before the recommend feature being added and that the quality of most of my posts has greatly diminished, because the recommend feature is so much more rewarding towards snide jabs at other posters (of ideologies opposite towards your own, of course) and one-off quips than substantive analysis.

As for the analysis of polls, I think that has to do with the growing distrust of polls across both sides. It's easier to dismiss polls people don't like as junk when you have the discrepancy between state polling in 2016 and 2018 to look towards. Quality pollsters like PPP have started working more on a private commission basis, and for whatever reason the public polls they release tend to be more D friendly from what I've noticed. It just feels like there's less high quality polls than there used to be. And of course with that said, that invites more accusations of junk polls, especially if one result is so wildly off base from what the rest of the polls were saying (not that outlier polls are necessarily junk).
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« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2020, 11:51:18 PM »

I think one of the main reasons for decline in content quality has to do a lot with the recommend feature. I'll be the first to admit that my effort I put into posting is considerably lower than it was before the recommend feature being added and that the quality of most of my posts has greatly diminished, because the recommend feature is so much more rewarding towards snide jabs at other posters (of ideologies opposite towards your own, of course) and one-off quips than substantive analysis.

As for the analysis of polls, I think that has to do with the growing distrust of polls across both sides. It's easier to dismiss polls people don't like as junk when you have the discrepancy between state polling in 2016 and 2018 to look towards. Quality pollsters like PPP have started working more on a private commission basis, and for whatever reason the public polls they release tend to be more D friendly from what I've noticed. It just feels like there's less high quality polls than there used to be. And of course with that said, that invites more accusations of junk polls, especially if one result is so wildly off base from what the rest of the polls were saying (not that outlier polls are necessarily junk).

Yeah, the recommend feature rewards the echo chamber sort of thing without even giving a big reward. It's like reddit karma.
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SevenEleven
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« Reply #4 on: July 13, 2020, 12:14:35 AM »

I've noticed this sort of thing carrying out on the real world too. Have never lost friends because of politics until this year, now it's five and counting. Also have seen people I know publicly call out their friends for "being racist" (not supporting BLM) on social media and literally cancelling them.

I can't speak on how this might relate to Canada, but I do know that human dignity is not a matter of debate. Human dignity is not a political view. Many people are growing increasingly frustrated with being treated as lesser than. The oft-quoted MLK Jr. insight regarding the "White Moderate" is certainly applicable to people who may not even be racist themselves. When you have persons choosing to demonize groups of people based upon superficial characteristics and utilizing rhetoric most notoriously remembered from the 1930s, and half of the forum decides to say that the person is a decent person with "bad political views", it's a reminder that yes, your human dignity is indeed negotiable. I don't think asking for empathy and self-education is too much to ask.

“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.” — Archbishop Desmond Tutu

“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”
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Holy Unifying Centrist
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« Reply #5 on: July 13, 2020, 12:21:00 AM »

I think one of the main reasons for decline in content quality has to do a lot with the recommend feature. I'll be the first to admit that my effort I put into posting is considerably lower than it was before the recommend feature being added and that the quality of most of my posts has greatly diminished, because the recommend feature is so much more rewarding towards snide jabs at other posters (of ideologies opposite towards your own, of course) and one-off quips than substantive analysis.

As for the analysis of polls, I think that has to do with the growing distrust of polls across both sides. It's easier to dismiss polls people don't like as junk when you have the discrepancy between state polling in 2016 and 2018 to look towards. Quality pollsters like PPP have started working more on a private commission basis, and for whatever reason the public polls they release tend to be more D friendly from what I've noticed. It just feels like there's less high quality polls than there used to be. And of course with that said, that invites more accusations of junk polls, especially if one result is so wildly off base from what the rest of the polls were saying (not that outlier polls are necessarily junk).


this post is trash, and smells just as bad as the animal you're named after
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Skunk
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« Reply #6 on: July 13, 2020, 12:44:15 AM »

I think one of the main reasons for decline in content quality has to do a lot with the recommend feature. I'll be the first to admit that my effort I put into posting is considerably lower than it was before the recommend feature being added and that the quality of most of my posts has greatly diminished, because the recommend feature is so much more rewarding towards snide jabs at other posters (of ideologies opposite towards your own, of course) and one-off quips than substantive analysis.

As for the analysis of polls, I think that has to do with the growing distrust of polls across both sides. It's easier to dismiss polls people don't like as junk when you have the discrepancy between state polling in 2016 and 2018 to look towards. Quality pollsters like PPP have started working more on a private commission basis, and for whatever reason the public polls they release tend to be more D friendly from what I've noticed. It just feels like there's less high quality polls than there used to be. And of course with that said, that invites more accusations of junk polls, especially if one result is so wildly off base from what the rest of the polls were saying (not that outlier polls are necessarily junk).
this post is trash, and smells just as bad as the animal you're named after
what does dtc even stand for besides dumb tiny cock smh
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Mike Thick
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« Reply #7 on: July 13, 2020, 12:52:21 AM »

Maybe my memory is just fried, but I don't remember things being too much better in 2016.
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Battista Minola 1616
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« Reply #8 on: July 13, 2020, 01:40:31 PM »

I've noticed this sort of thing carrying out on the real world too. Have never lost friends because of politics until this year, now it's five and counting. Also have seen people I know publicly call out their friends for "being racist" (not supporting BLM) on social media and literally cancelling them.

I can't speak on how this might relate to Canada, but I do know that human dignity is not a matter of debate. Human dignity is not a political view. Many people are growing increasingly frustrated with being treated as lesser than. The oft-quoted MLK Jr. insight regarding the "White Moderate" is certainly applicable to people who may not even be racist themselves. When you have persons choosing to demonize groups of people based upon superficial characteristics and utilizing rhetoric most notoriously remembered from the 1930s, and half of the forum decides to say that the person is a decent person with "bad political views", it's a reminder that yes, your human dignity is indeed negotiable. I don't think asking for empathy and self-education is too much to ask.

“If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.” — Archbishop Desmond Tutu

“Bad men need nothing more to compass their ends, than that good men should look on and do nothing.”



Well, I'll just say that I think very few people would argue that human dignity is not negotiable, because that would require among other things to forgive all the most heinious crimes that humans have managed to commit over their years on Earth, and that is an *extremely* *difficult* thing to do for a human being.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #9 on: July 13, 2020, 03:30:57 PM »

Well, I'll just say that I think very few people would argue that human dignity is not negotiable, because that would require among other things to forgive all the most heinious crimes that humans have managed to commit over their years on Earth, and that is an *extremely* *difficult* thing to do for a human being.

If you think human dignity is not negotiable, obviously you've never watched "reality" TV.  Mock
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Battista Minola 1616
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« Reply #10 on: July 13, 2020, 03:56:50 PM »

Well, I'll just say that I think very few people would argue that human dignity is not negotiable, because that would require among other things to forgive all the most heinious crimes that humans have managed to commit over their years on Earth, and that is an *extremely* *difficult* thing to do for a human being.

If you think human dignity is not negotiable, obviously you've never watched "reality" TV.  Mock

Your answer is kind of tacky given that I was referring to things like, say, Nazi concentration camps...
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Joe Republic
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« Reply #11 on: July 13, 2020, 04:12:13 PM »

Speaking for my own reduced quality of posts over time, I blame two things: (1) the majority of my posting is now done on my phone rather than a desktop. The mobile version of this website requires far more patience that I don’t always have, especially if I’m trying to use any sort of BBCode. (2) Less free time. I have a full time job, and a toddler at home.
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Meclazine for Israel
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« Reply #12 on: July 13, 2020, 04:37:51 PM »

I think it's scaring away lots of very intelligent top quality posters

Don't worry, I have decided to stay.

I let young adults entering the world off with a long leash. Everyone now has a mental illness, Facebook anxiety as you mentioned, COVID-19, no work, and expectation that you should have $400K worth of shares by the age of 28 and be successful on Instagram. We seem to have this constant message on Instagram of "Look what you dont have".

At 49, I have come to realise that with the world the way it is in 2020, there is a lot more pressure on young people causing this anxiety. For someone who is in their 20's, the expectation of being a popular social media legend creates a very unfair paradigm in their brain. There seems to be an expectation that you are either a legend or a loser. But there is not a lot of room just to be normal and relax.

The posts made on Facebook, YouTube and Atlas are reflective of that. People who are very attacking and chase people around on the internet are doing so because of their own low self-esteem. Their critique of other people is an implicit reflection of their own low self-worth.

My suggestion, find something positive in life with a longer term goal. 2-3 years. 4-5 years.

Chasing social media and forum posts with hourly/daily time frames only results in poor life outcomes over the longer term.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2020, 08:10:14 PM »

Well, I'll just say that I think very few people would argue that human dignity is not negotiable, because that would require among other things to forgive all the most heinious crimes that humans have managed to commit over their years on Earth, and that is an *extremely* *difficult* thing to do for a human being.

If you think human dignity is not negotiable, obviously you've never watched "reality" TV.  Mock

Your answer is kind of tacky given that I was referring to things like, say, Nazi concentration camps...

Since this is a U.S. political forum, Nazis aren't even the tenth thing to come to mind if you mention the 1930s here. 1930s rhetoric would be from FDR or Huey Long.
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Battista Minola 1616
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« Reply #14 on: July 14, 2020, 03:10:31 AM »

Well, I'll just say that I think very few people would argue that human dignity is not negotiable, because that would require among other things to forgive all the most heinious crimes that humans have managed to commit over their years on Earth, and that is an *extremely* *difficult* thing to do for a human being.

If you think human dignity is not negotiable, obviously you've never watched "reality" TV.  Mock

Your answer is kind of tacky given that I was referring to things like, say, Nazi concentration camps...

Since this is a U.S. political forum, Nazis aren't even the tenth thing to come to mind if you mention the 1930s here. 1930s rhetoric would be from FDR or Huey Long.


I didn't mention 1930s. Don't confuse posts. I said "humans over their years on Earth".
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2020, 07:23:46 AM »

Well, I'll just say that I think very few people would argue that human dignity is not negotiable, because that would require among other things to forgive all the most heinious crimes that humans have managed to commit over their years on Earth, and that is an *extremely* *difficult* thing to do for a human being.

If you think human dignity is not negotiable, obviously you've never watched "reality" TV.  Mock

Your answer is kind of tacky given that I was referring to things like, say, Nazi concentration camps...

Since this is a U.S. political forum, Nazis aren't even the tenth thing to come to mind if you mention the 1930s here. 1930s rhetoric would be from FDR or Huey Long.


I didn't mention 1930s. Don't confuse posts. I said "humans over their years on Earth".

Sev mentioned the 1930s in the post you replied to. Frankly, without that temporal link, you thinking "Nazi concentration camps" is the obvious thing that cones to mind from your remarks is even more baffling .
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Battista Minola 1616
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« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2020, 07:39:47 AM »

Well, I'll just say that I think very few people would argue that human dignity is not negotiable, because that would require among other things to forgive all the most heinious crimes that humans have managed to commit over their years on Earth, and that is an *extremely* *difficult* thing to do for a human being.

If you think human dignity is not negotiable, obviously you've never watched "reality" TV.  Mock

Your answer is kind of tacky given that I was referring to things like, say, Nazi concentration camps...

Since this is a U.S. political forum, Nazis aren't even the tenth thing to come to mind if you mention the 1930s here. 1930s rhetoric would be from FDR or Huey Long.


I didn't mention 1930s. Don't confuse posts. I said "humans over their years on Earth".

Sev mentioned the 1930s in the post you replied to. Frankly, without that temporal link, you thinking "Nazi concentration camps" is the obvious thing that cones to mind from your remarks is even more baffling .

I think you misunderstood.
My post had nothing to do with Sev's reference to the 1930s.
I was only expanding on the sentence "human dignity is indeed negotiable". And my consideration was that very few people would argue that human dignity is not negotiable, because it would require among other things to think that even people who committed horrible crimes did not lose their human dignity. Nazi officials who supervised concentration camps is an obvious example of those horrible crimes, but I could have said the Rwandan genocide, Cromwell's actions in Ireland or others.
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The world will shine with light in our nightmare
Just Passion Through
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« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2020, 07:42:13 AM »

Speaking for my own reduced quality of posts over time, I blame two things: (1) the majority of my posting is now done on my phone rather than a desktop. The mobile version of this website requires far more patience that I don’t always have, especially if I’m trying to use any sort of BBCode. (2) Less free time. I have a full time job, and a toddler at home.

For myself I blame apathy and festering mental illness.
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Damocles
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« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2020, 11:42:58 AM »

I feel like there’s a time and place for both kinds of posts. There’s some posts where I’ll expand at great lengths and get really into the nitty gritty of a particular subject, but there’s other times where I’ll have a more jovial or witty or even sort of sh!tpost-y tone. You have to do both, I believe, to be a quality poster. The former is what really shows your very best quality writing and argument construction, and the latter is what gets people to pay attention to you and read your posts more often.

If you lean too hard one way or the other, you come off looking like a poindexter in the former case; and you look like just another sh!tposter in the forum in the latter case. How that balance shakes out depends on your reputation and the depths of the topics you’re interested in, but there is a balance. There should be an emphasis both in terms of absolute quality (how good the post is), and relative quality (the post relative to other posts in its category). It’s possible to appreciate both.
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DINGO Joe
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« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2020, 12:18:35 PM »

Hi guys, not sure if this is the right board or not. Feel free to move.

I have noticed that Atlas is becoming more and more like the comments section on Facebook. Lots of partisan nonsense and promoting of party ideologies. Take for example a single poll in Alaska or Arkansas showing Trump ahead by a narrow margin, and see all the pundits posters arguing how it could happen.  Post a poll of Trump ahead in a swing state like Minnesota or Michigan and it will be quickly tossed out as "junk". Not to be offensive, but it seems like lower tier s***posting by people who lack critical thinking skills. On the Alaska poll thread, I pointed out the notable polling error the state had in 2016 and how you really should not put much faith in to one poll, and I was told that the agency that did the poll did a great job in 2014! How on earth does general election polling compare to a gubernational polling from six years ago. I mean... really? Does anyone believe that!


I looked back at those threads and I think the community as a whole grasped those polls for what they were (Arkansas highly suspect and Alaska a hard to poll state by a higher quality pollster)  Atlas has posters that scour the internet for all the polls and put it all in one place which I find very convenient.  They're pretty savvy at digging into the details and the analysis here while glib at times matches anything you'll find in the great WWW.   As for echo chamber, well that's the internet for ya.  As for content quality, I think the longer you're on here, the less interest you have in discussing something that you discussed 6 or 8 years ago (except sadly, Fuzzy), plus I'm old and little interest in changing ones opinion or having someone change mine, so I'm no help to you on that one.   GD and the 2020 (and previous iterations) have always been dumpster fires.  There's been several discussions about institutions and their myths of late (statues and founding of nation states and such) and the idea of a Golden Age of Atlas is about as true as "George Washington never told a lie"

TL-DR, suck it up and march on, or wonder off elsewhere.
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Former President tack50
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« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2020, 02:26:52 PM »

Hi guys, not sure if this is the right board or not. Feel free to move.
 As for echo chamber, well that's the internet for ya.  As for content quality, I think the longer you're on here, the less interest you have in discussing something that you discussed 6 or 8 years ago (except sadly, Fuzzy), plus I'm old and little interest in changing ones opinion or having someone change mine, so I'm no help to you on that one.   GD and the 2020 (and previous iterations) have always been dumpster fires.  There's been several discussions about institutions and their myths of late (statues and founding of nation states and such) and the idea of a Golden Age of Atlas is about as true as "George Washington never told a lie"


While I cannot comment on posting quality, I will say that way, way back in the days of 2004-2006 Atlas was at least a lot more ideologically balanced from what I hear, possibly even marginally right of center back in those days.

"where things went wrong" is hard, if not impossible to pin point of course, not to mention the old posters from way back then also have posted that things were far from perfect at the time either.
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Damocles
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« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2020, 02:32:28 PM »

While I cannot comment on posting quality, I will say that way, way back in the days of 2004-2006 Atlas was at least a lot more ideologically balanced from what I hear, possibly even marginally right of center back in those days.

"where things went wrong" is hard, if not impossible to pin point of course, not to mention the old posters from way back then also have posted that things were far from perfect at the time either.
Being that this is primarily an American forum, you could probably pin the reaction to favor mainly left-wing politics from the emergence of my generation that remembers watching our parents lose their jobs in the 2009 recession. We were forced to mature early and wonder why all these bad things were happening, which led to natural skepticism of such institutions as banks and other economic and political institutions. We’re also the first generation to grow up without remembering a time before the Internet. That would time more or less perfectly with this generation maturing and becoming active on the Internet, as a younger and more left-wing youth becomes politically active.
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True Federalist (진정한 연방 주의자)
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« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2020, 04:28:44 PM »

There's also the unfortunate fact that politics in general has become more tribal.  I wonder, does anyone know when "moderate hero" first became a term of scorn here?
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DINGO Joe
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« Reply #23 on: July 14, 2020, 07:23:27 PM »

Hi guys, not sure if this is the right board or not. Feel free to move.
 As for echo chamber, well that's the internet for ya.  As for content quality, I think the longer you're on here, the less interest you have in discussing something that you discussed 6 or 8 years ago (except sadly, Fuzzy), plus I'm old and little interest in changing ones opinion or having someone change mine, so I'm no help to you on that one.   GD and the 2020 (and previous iterations) have always been dumpster fires.  There's been several discussions about institutions and their myths of late (statues and founding of nation states and such) and the idea of a Golden Age of Atlas is about as true as "George Washington never told a lie"


While I cannot comment on posting quality, I will say that way, way back in the days of 2004-2006 Atlas was at least a lot more ideologically balanced from what I hear, possibly even marginally right of center back in those days.

"where things went wrong" is hard, if not impossible to pin point of course, not to mention the old posters from way back then also have posted that things were far from perfect at the time either.

"Where things went wrong" is when Dave Leip decided there should be a forum to go along with his cool maps.  Every now and again, someone will bump a necrothread from the before times.  Never seen one that says "Wow, that must have been the golden age of Atlas" to me, though that's not very scientific.  Conversely, even today you can see threads in the History boards that are very knowledgeable and worth reading. 
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DabbingSanta
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« Reply #24 on: July 14, 2020, 09:01:02 PM »

I think a lot of the divisiveness and hostility in national politics that has come up this past decade might be to blame. Politics also attracts a lot of nutters, a lot of ideological extremists, and other undesirable folks.  There's also some really great people. I think the problem is that some of us get way too emotionally involved. I'm really only in it for the maps and data, and I could care less what others think politically, or what others think of me. I post my opinions and reply to discussions to challenge others on their opinions to try and make a more perfect world. If someone is a critical thinker they can listen to both sides of the debate and make an informed decision. I think if we all sat back and hid the avatars the vast majority of us here would find a lot of middle ground.

I also agree on the recommended button. We don't need one line "burns" to fill up every thread!
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