California legislature proposes ballot measure to remove the ban of state discrimination on race

[Former President tack50]

I have some extremely out there ideas for college admissions (for US standards at least, they are perfectly normal here), but why is it so bad for college admissions to be race blind and gender blind?

Just admit people based on their merits. It is not even that hard to implement, just make it so students are just a number to the college admission stuff.

Because elite colleges will then lack representative black and Hispanic populations.

Look at Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology, a STEM-focused magnet school in Fairfax County, VA that's one of the best public high schools in the nation.

Fairfax county as a whole is 61% white, 19% Asian, 16% Hispanic, and 10% black.
TJHSST is 70% Asian, 20% white, and just 2% black and 2% Hispanic.

The TJ admission system is purely meritocratic and the result is an unrepresentative, undiverse school.

So what? Universities are not meant to be representative. They are meant to take the best X students. If said group of the 100 best students or whatever ends up being 70% Asian then what is the problem?

I do know poorer areas are disproportionally black and that said poorer areas also have worse schools and more disstructured families, but that is an argument for investing in schools in poor areas, not for quotas and affirmative action.

When talking about admission, people should be little more than a number with a series of qualifications attached to it.

(I will note one of the "out there" ideas I have actually would be to abolish "magnet schools" and make it so all schools in the country have to teach the same contents but that is behond the argument)

[LimoLiberal]

I have some extremely out there ideas for college admissions (for US standards at least, they are perfectly normal here), but why is it so bad for college admissions to be race blind and gender blind?

Just admit people based on their merits. It is not even that hard to implement, just make it so students are just a number to the college admission stuff.

Because elite colleges will then lack representative black and Hispanic populations.

Look at Thomas Jefferson High School for Science and Technology, a STEM-focused magnet school in Fairfax County, VA that's one of the best public high schools in the nation.

Fairfax county as a whole is 61% white, 19% Asian, 16% Hispanic, and 10% black.
TJHSST is 70% Asian, 20% white, and just 2% black and 2% Hispanic.

The TJ admission system is purely meritocratic and the result is an unrepresentative, undiverse school.

So what? Universities are not meant to be representative. They are meant to take the best X students. If said group of the 100 best students or whatever ends up being 70% Asian then what is the problem?

I do know poorer areas are disproportionally black and that said poorer areas also have worse schools and more disstructured families, but that is an argument for investing in schools in poor areas, not for quotas and affirmative action.

When talking about admission, people should be little more than a number with a series of qualifications attached to it.

(I will note one of the "out there" ideas I have actually would be to abolish "magnet schools" and make it so all schools in the country have to teach the same contents but that is behond the argument)

Most of the elite institutions in the United States would disagree with that. They believe providing a strong education requires a variety of different viewpoints and experiences, hence the need for diversity. All these schools make efforts to reach out groups that would be naturally disadvantaged in the admission process; they have specific officers for rural and underrepresented groups, subsidize application fees, participate in the Questbridge program in which low-income students can apply and gain admission early to matched schools with a full scholarship. It's simply an extension of the mantra "diversity is strength".

As a student planning to enter university in the fall, I would feel very uncomfortable going to a school dominated by one group as the result of a purely "meritocratic" system and I believe many others feel the same. Perhaps the system in Spain is different in that respect.

[Former President tack50]

Most of the elite institutions in the United States would disagree with that. They believe providing a strong education requires a variety of different viewpoints and experiences, hence the need for diversity. All these schools make efforts to reach out groups that would be naturally disadvantaged in the admission process; they have specific officers for rural and underrepresented groups, subsidize application fees, participate in the Questbridge program in which low-income students can apply and gain admission early to matched schools with a full scholarship. It's simply an extension of the mantra "diversity is strength".

As a student planning to enter university in the fall, I would feel very uncomfortable going to a school dominated by one group as the result of a purely "meritocratic" system and I believe many others feel the same. Perhaps the system in Spain is different in that respect.

Well, first of all as a disclaimer, I study in one of the worse universities in the country. While not the worst overall, it is certainly inferior and below the national average; though I will note that even the best universities here are nowhere near as good as an "elite" institution in the US.

Therefore, except for a few select degrees, my university basically takes in anyone with a pulse and a high school diploma. I am not sure how widespread this is; better universities do have stricter admittance requirements. In any case this might influence my personal views on the issue but admittance works the same across the country.

So I will talk about my personal experience entering college. If you are a Spanish high school student, the admissions process literally reduces yourself to a single number. Said number (graded from 0 to 14) is calculated in the following way:

>6 points come from your average grade during years 11 and 12
>4 points come from the mandatory "University Access Test". This has changed a bit since I took it 4 years ago, but when I did the subjects were:
  -Spanish Language and Literature
  -Foreign Language (95% of the time English, though German, Italian and French tests are offered)
  -Choice between History of Spain or History of Philosophy
  -One of your high school classes

>Up to 4 points from 2 optional extra tests; from 2 of your high school classes (can't be the one you took before)

With that you get a grade out of 14 points. And that grade is literally all that gets evaluated. For example, if there are 100 spots for an engineering degree, the 100 students that have the highest score get in. Everyone else, too bad.

And that number is literally all that gets evaluated. There are some extra spots for people over the age of 25 or people coming from apprenticechips, even those get reduced to a single number.

Internships and extracurriculars do not get evaluated at all. No letters of recommendation, no nothing. Simple, effective and equal for everybody.

And to my knowledge nobody really wants to change this. The only real debate is whether the "University Access Exam" should be performed by the regions or by the national government, since some argue that doing regional exams means some will be easier than others and therefore some students are advantaged unfairly.

But no one to my knowledge would want a system like the American one. I actually have had long conversations about this same issue with other people, but I still do not think this kind of system is discriminatory in any way. In fact it is very much fair.

If 70% of the top 100 applicants were Asians for some reason, then why shouldn't the school be 70% Asian? The question is why are 70% of the best Applicants Asian and what can be done so non-Asian students perform better, not whether they should be admitted.

I certainly do not believe it is the job of universities to fix this, especially not through affirmative action. A diverse body of students is certainly a plus, but it should not come at the expense of discrimination.

[C r a b c a k e]

it strikes me the best way to get the universities to better represent the population is to ban legacy admissions (rich failsons should just fritter away their inheritance without wasting spaces in colleges) and have affirmative action based on economic status (is that unconstitutional?). i.e. say that colleges have to admit a certain amount of food stamp recipients every year or children whose parents themselves were not graduates or whatever. Race based AA ends up like Malaysia's NEP or SA's BEE: you end up with a certain upper strata of whatever group you end up wanting to lift up that continue to monopolize it for future generations with little proven "trickle down" effect to the rest of the disadvantaged population.

[lfromnj]

it strikes me the best way to get the universities to better represent the population is to ban legacy admissions (rich failsons should just fritter away their inheritance without wasting spaces in colleges) and have affirmative action based on economic status (is that unconstitutional?). i.e. say that colleges have to admit a certain amount of food stamp recipients every year or children whose parents themselves were not graduates or whatever. Race based AA ends up like Malaysia's NEP or SA's BEE: you end up with a certain upper strata of whatever group you end up wanting to lift up that continue to monopolize it for future generations with little proven "trickle down" effect to the rest of the disadvantaged population.

Public California schools dont have legacy admissions.

[C r a b c a k e]

it strikes me the best way to get the universities to better represent the population is to ban legacy admissions (rich failsons should just fritter away their inheritance without wasting spaces in colleges) and have affirmative action based on economic status (is that unconstitutional?). i.e. say that colleges have to admit a certain amount of food stamp recipients every year or children whose parents themselves were not graduates or whatever. Race based AA ends up like Malaysia's NEP or SA's BEE: you end up with a certain upper strata of whatever group you end up wanting to lift up that continue to monopolize it for future generations with little proven "trickle down" effect to the rest of the disadvantaged population.

Public California schools dont have legacy admissions.

ban them for private schools as well; the US was born out of hostility to aristocrats so there's no reason to keep these guys around.

[ملكة كرينجيتوك]

If I'm reading the crosstabs for this poll correctly, White and Latino Californians are on track to veto Proposition 16, while Asian (+ Black + Mixed-race) Californians narrowly support it lmao. This is consistent with previous polls showing Asian Californians support affirmative action at least in theory.

September 4-13:

https://www.ppic.org/wp-content/uploads/ppic-statewide-survey-californians-and-their-government-september-2020.pdf

https://www.ppic.org/wp-content/uploads/crosstabs-likely-voters-0920.pdf

Q17. If the election were being held today, would you vote yes or no on Proposition 16?

Latino: 41 yes, 41 no, 18 DK [n = 201]
White: 26 yes, 51 no, 23 DK [n = 737]
Other: 40 yes, 38 no, 22 DK [n = 187]

[ملكة كرينجيتوك]

While the phenomenon you have observed is definitely accurate, a clear majority of Asian-Americans still supports affirmative action. It is mostly Chinese-Americans, especially recent Chinese immigrants who are an extremely vocal minority on this issue in both NYC and California, so don't conflate them with all of Asian America. They also tend to be fiscally conservative and be part of the 25% of Asian-Americans who were already supporting Republicans and Trump anyway.

You can read more at these two links if you are interested:

http://aapidata.com/blog/asianam-affirmative-action-surveys/

https://supchina.com/2017/06/14/split-heart-chinese-america/

Asian Californians lean in favor of Prop 16, but the undecided margins here are huge, and I don't expect Asians to save the measure if Whites and Latinos vote against it (even narrowly).

https://aapidata.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/aavs2020_crosstab_CAonly.html
https://aapidata.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Slides-CA-AAVS-2020-sep16.pdf

Q16B: This November, California voters will be asked to vote on ACA5 Proposition 16, which is a ballot measure that would restore affirmative action by repealing Proposition 209, which prohibited the state from considering race, sex, color, ethnicity, or national origin in the operation of public employment, public education, and public contracting.

Thinking about this ballot measure, if the election were held today, would you vote Yes or No or are you undecided?

Source: 2020 Asian American Voter Survey (AAVS) by APIAVote, AAPI Data, and Asian Americans Advancing Justice | AAJC
Note: Totals might not add to 100 due to rounding

ALL: 35-21-36-7 (609)
Indian: 58-17-22-4 (50)
Chinese: 30-37-22-5 (110)
Filipino: 38-11-42-9 (127)
Japanese: 38-29-21-12 (105)
Korean: 29-27-37-8 (110)
Vietnamese: 31-11-53-6 (107)

The AAPI Data sample of California Indian Americans is more R than the national average, while their California Vietnamese American sample is more D.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Will UC Irvine be required to admit more whites?

[Intell]

Let's hurt working class asians so undeserving middle class black people can get into university easier for the same of diversity!

It's not like already asian people need to score much higher on SAT's to get into ivy universities than black people let's make it the same for California schools.

[Zohranism is OUR future]

It’s funny how everyone argues about affirmative action, instead of trying to find ways to reduce the inequities in the primary and secondary school systems. You can’t just solve years of lower quality schooling/less resources with an acceptance letter.
 Throwing an unprepared 18 year old into a tough university based on his skin color helps no one. The disadvantaged accepted kid suffers, the rejected kid suffers, and only the university benefits.

Step one is to end local property taxes determining school funding, but that’s just start. We should aim for an equality of opportunity from the start.

[lfromnj]

https://www.ppic.org/wp-content/uploads/ppic-statewide-survey-californians-and-their-government-september-2020.pdf

Proposition 16 would repeal a 1996 constitutional amendment (Prop 209) that banned the use of
affirmative action involving race-based or sex-based preferences in public hiring decisions. Among
likely voters, 31 percent would vote yes and 47 percent would vote no, with one in five (22%) undecided.
Forty-six percent of Democratic likely voters support Proposition 16, compared with 26 percent of
independents and 9 percent of Republicans. The San Francisco Bay Area (40% of likely voters) and Los
Angeles (37%) are the only regions with more than one-third support (28% Orange/San Diego, 25%
Central Valley, 20% Inland Empire)

The wording of the proposition does not help, but Democrats have a much stronger ad campaign. I expect it to pass by 10 points

[Intell]

https://www.ppic.org/wp-content/uploads/ppic-statewide-survey-californians-and-their-government-september-2020.pdf

Proposition 16 would repeal a 1996 constitutional amendment (Prop 209) that banned the use of
affirmative action involving race-based or sex-based preferences in public hiring decisions. Among
likely voters, 31 percent would vote yes and 47 percent would vote no, with one in five (22%) undecided.
Forty-six percent of Democratic likely voters support Proposition 16, compared with 26 percent of
independents and 9 percent of Republicans. The San Francisco Bay Area (40% of likely voters) and Los
Angeles (37%) are the only regions with more than one-third support (28% Orange/San Diego, 25%
Central Valley, 20% Inland Empire)

The wording of the proposition does not help, but Democrats have a much stronger ad campaign. I expect it to pass by 10 points

A much less bill couldn't pass in Washington, maybe this will pass in California due to the large latino population but it's no guaranteed.

[Kyle Rittenhouse is a Political Prisoner]

It is worth mentioning that the gap in academic achievement persists even in states that a negative funding gap, such as Pennsylvania.

[ملكة كرينجيتوك]

New Poll: California President by Survey USA on 2020-09-28

Summary: D: 59%, R: 32%, U: 6%

Poll Source URL: Full Poll Details

Asian crosstab [17% of total]. More favorable for Biden and less favorable for Prop 16 than the AAPI Data survey

President: 68% Biden, 19% Trump, 6% Other, 9% Undecided

Proposition 16: 35% Yes, 42% No, 23% Undecided.
(Overall sample is 40% Yes, 26% No, 34% Undecided)

[Bootes Void]

New Poll: California President by Survey USA on 2020-09-28

Summary: D: 59%, R: 32%, U: 6%

Poll Source URL: Full Poll Details

Asian crosstab [17% of total]. More favorable for Biden and less favorable for Prop 16 than the AAPI Data survey

President: 68% Biden, 19% Trump, 6% Other, 9% Undecided

Proposition 16: 35% Yes, 42% No, 23% Undecided.
(Overall sample is 40% Yes, 26% No, 34% Undecided)

The way the question was framed was misleading. If they just straight up ask would you favour repealing the ban on affirmative action, it would go no

[sparkey]

New Poll: California President by Survey USA on 2020-09-28

Summary: D: 59%, R: 32%, U: 6%

Poll Source URL: Full Poll Details

Asian crosstab [17% of total]. More favorable for Biden and less favorable for Prop 16 than the AAPI Data survey

President: 68% Biden, 19% Trump, 6% Other, 9% Undecided

Proposition 16: 35% Yes, 42% No, 23% Undecided.
(Overall sample is 40% Yes, 26% No, 34% Undecided)

The way the question was framed was misleading. If they just straight up ask would you favour repealing the ban on affirmative action, it would go no

They framed it the same way as the stupid ballot title. Thanks Becerra.