The Atlas Asylum of absurd/ignorant posts IX

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Unlike you guys, who seem to have your whole lives revolve around politics, political beliefs are completely irrelevant for me in terms of friendships or relationships. I have friends all across the political spectrum from communists to nazis to libertarians to woke SJWs.

There is nothing inherently unethical with having friends with extreme politics. And acting like that is the case only helps extremist politicians.

Being friends with literal Nazis is bad, actually.

So are you implying that people should cut off all communications with friends/relatives/acquaintances whose political views are on the extreme ends of the political spectrum? I don't think that would be a good idea, as long as discussion about politics with such people is kept to a minimum (for example, I found out from Twitter that one of my old high school classmates clearly believes that Biden is not the legitimate president, but if I were to see him on the street, I would still treat him just like I would with any of my old classmates).

If we don't help shape these people's political views by talking to them and maintaining them in our social circles (to the extent we feasibly can), they will only find fellowship with those with more unreasonable ideas and beliefs and said beliefs are likelier to harden if anything. How is that good for society?

[Badger]

Unlike you guys, who seem to have your whole lives revolve around politics, political beliefs are completely irrelevant for me in terms of friendships or relationships. I have friends all across the political spectrum from communists to nazis to libertarians to woke SJWs.

There is nothing inherently unethical with having friends with extreme politics. And acting like that is the case only helps extremist politicians.

Being friends with literal Nazis is bad, actually.

So are you implying that people should cut off all communications with friends/relatives/acquaintances whose political views are on the extreme ends of the political spectrum? I don't think that would be a good idea, as long as discussion about politics with such people is kept to a minimum (for example, I found out from Twitter that one of my old high school classmates clearly believes that Biden is not the legitimate president, but if I were to see him on the street, I would still treat him just like I would with any of my old classmates).

Dude. We're talking about litteral Nazis here! Of course the answer is a resounding yes. This isn't over "politics", but simple right and wrong.

[GeorgiaModerate]

DeSantis scares me just as much as Biden - both are extremely authoritarian sociopaths who we should keep as far away from power as possible.

[Ferguson97]

So are you implying that people should cut off all communications with friends/relatives/acquaintances whose political views are on the extreme ends of the political spectrum? I don't think that would be a good idea, as long as discussion about politics with such people is kept to a minimum (for example, I found out from Twitter that one of my old high school classmates clearly believes that Biden is not the legitimate president, but if I were to see him on the street, I would still treat him just like I would with any of my old classmates).

Treating them with courtesy legitimizes their viewpoints. I’m not even talking about nutty election deniers. I’m just talking about Nazis. Every single Nazi must be shunned and rejected by polite society.

If we don't help shape these people's political views by talking to them and maintaining them in our social circles (to the extent we feasibly can), they will only find fellowship with those with more unreasonable ideas and beliefs and said beliefs are likelier to harden if anything. How is that good for society?

Nazis cannot be saved. They are our enemies and must be destroyed. Tolerating Nazis only puts their targets at risk of physical harm.

Do not treat Nazis like they are normal or their views are legitimate.

They will not be won over by polite debate. They want a debate, because debating them legitimizes their views and gives them an audience to propagandize.

Nazis are a living incarnation of evil and must be destroyed. They must be shunned and ostracized before they kill more people.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Nazis cannot be saved. They are our enemies and must be destroyed. Tolerating Nazis only puts their targets at risk of physical harm.

Do not treat Nazis like they are normal or their views are legitimate.

They will not be won over by polite debate. They want a debate, because debating them legitimizes their views and gives them an audience to propagandize.

Nazis are a living incarnation of evil and must be destroyed. They must be shunned and ostracized before they kill more people.

My guy, this is the strangest, most disjointed combination of Chicken Little and Rambo I have ever seen, maybe a mirror of "too strong but simultaneously too weak" thinking seen in the same people you are talking about. Either they are small enough in number that rationally they aren't a mortal threat to most, or they are large enough in number that the idea that a "cordon sanitare" strategy could work is a dangerous delusion.
Why do you want to throw millions of quasi-radicals into the hands of uber-radicals? Are you not aware of how much people's ideas can be influenced by their social circles? Are you ignorant of the plethora of places in which people with varying degrees of extreme ideas can congregate and substitute fellowship from (politically) normal people with fellowship from other sources? Thank god you are a mere internet poster, and not in a position of authority to actually make a difference here.

[Ferguson97]

Nazis cannot be saved. They are our enemies and must be destroyed. Tolerating Nazis only puts their targets at risk of physical harm.

Do not treat Nazis like they are normal or their views are legitimate.

They will not be won over by polite debate. They want a debate, because debating them legitimizes their views and gives them an audience to propagandize.

Nazis are a living incarnation of evil and must be destroyed. They must be shunned and ostracized before they kill more people.

My guy, this is the strangest, most disjointed combination of Chicken Little and Rambo I have ever seen, maybe a mirror of "too strong but simultaneously too weak" thinking seen in the same people you are talking about. Either they are small enough in number that rationally they aren't a mortal threat to most, or they are large enough in number that the idea that a "cordon sanitare" strategy could work is a dangerous delusion.
Why do you want to throw millions of quasi-radicals into the hands of uber-radicals? Are you not aware of how much people's ideas can be influenced by their social circles? Are you ignorant of the plethora of places in which people with varying degrees of extreme ideas can congregate and substitute fellowship from (politically) normal people with fellowship from other sources? Thank god you are a mere internet poster, and not in a position of authority to actually make a difference here.

You’re not going to debate Nazis out of being Nazis, they are a lost cause. Do not legitimize their views by tolerating them.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Nazis cannot be saved. They are our enemies and must be destroyed. Tolerating Nazis only puts their targets at risk of physical harm.

Do not treat Nazis like they are normal or their views are legitimate.

They will not be won over by polite debate. They want a debate, because debating them legitimizes their views and gives them an audience to propagandize.

Nazis are a living incarnation of evil and must be destroyed. They must be shunned and ostracized before they kill more people.

My guy, this is the strangest, most disjointed combination of Chicken Little and Rambo I have ever seen, maybe a mirror of "too strong but simultaneously too weak" thinking seen in the same people you are talking about. Either they are small enough in number that rationally they aren't a mortal threat to most, or they are large enough in number that the idea that a "cordon sanitare" strategy could work is a dangerous delusion.
Why do you want to throw millions of quasi-radicals into the hands of uber-radicals? Are you not aware of how much people's ideas can be influenced by their social circles? Are you ignorant of the plethora of places in which people with varying degrees of extreme ideas can congregate and substitute fellowship from (politically) normal people with fellowship from other sources? Thank god you are a mere internet poster, and not in a position of authority to actually make a difference here.

You’re not going to debate Nazis out of being Nazis, they are a lost cause. Do not legitimize their views by tolerating them.

How broadly are you defining "Nazi" here?

[Ferguson97]

How broadly are you defining "Nazi" here?

…People who call themselves Nazis.

Did you forget how this conversation started? Shaula said she was friends with a variety of people including Nazis, which clearly means people who self-ID as such.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

How broadly are you defining "Nazi" here?

…People who call themselves Nazis.

Did you forget how this conversation started? Shaula said she was friends with a variety of people including Nazis, which clearly means people who self-ID as such.

Considering how terms like socialist, communist, and others have gotten debased over time and have a different meaning among the youth than among olds? I don't think you can prudently be this doctrinaire.
If you are going to look at this like it's a battle, I'll let Sun Tzu speak for me here:
"6. So, the student of war who is unversed in the art of war of varying his plans, even though he be acquainted with the Five Advantages, will fail to make the best use of his men."

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Just throwing this idea out there and I'm sure I'll be pummeled for it, I'm starting to wonder if Zelensky should be tried as a war criminal. Ukraine is not fighting this war on their own. Other countries are propping them up. If not for the others in this scenario, Zelensky would have had to give up a long time ago and would have saved a LOT of Ukrainian lives. And yet, here he is, begging for assistance, begging for more and more weapons, and more and more money, for what purpose? His own people are dying in massive amounts. How much killing is enough for this president?

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

There is nothing inherently unethical with having friends with extreme politics. And acting like that is the case only helps extremist politicians.

Is it unethical to be your friend?

[Ferguson97]

There is nothing inherently unethical with having friends with extreme politics. And acting like that is the case only helps extremist politicians.

Is it unethical to be your friend?

My politics are not extreme. I'm about as 'generic liberal Democrat' as it comes.

[Ferguson97]

Considering how terms like socialist, communist, and others have gotten debased over time and have a different meaning among the youth than among olds? I don't think you can prudently be this doctrinaire.

Lmao

I'm talking about self-identified Nazis who love Hitler and hate Jews.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Considering how terms like socialist, communist, and others have gotten debased over time and have a different meaning among the youth than among olds? I don't think you can prudently be this doctrinaire.

Lmao

I'm talking about self-identified Nazis who love Hitler and hate Jews.

Sometimes it can be hard to tell how selective you are when using terminology, so pardon me.
I note that you have yet to actually engage with what I'm saying (including the things about radical echo chambers...especially that part) and keep going behind the "but they're Nazis!" line. As if that's the by-all-and-end-all of discussion. How much hope do we have to fight hate crime if we let still more people fall through the cracks? How is there supposed to be any hope for deprogramming these people?
There's no shortage of room for radical people to find like-minded types. It's our job as a society to work to minimize that as a number and not abdicate our duty to educate or at least constructively reduce it through our behavior. You idealistically (and/or short-sightedly) believe that what you are proposing is sustainable (it's clearly not). You want to take the easy way out, whether you realize it or not.
My religious community generally maintains an approach of dialogue and discouraging of the worst of impulses and even then you have people who do terrible acts. God knows how awful it would be if we only aided it by acting in the opposite way. The Muslim community trying your approach in the early 2000s would have been an abject disaster.
If you read your history, you'd be aware that a cordon sanitaire failed in pre-1945 Europe in restraining Nazism. What makes you think a complete reliance on a cordon sanitaire would succeed if tried again?

[ꙮ]

There's a difference between "I don't have any friends with political views different from my own" and "I don't have any friends who self-identify as Nazis and want to kill Jews." Obviously. The hell is wrong with you people?

Despite the bizarre insinuations to the contrary from certain Atlas users, having Nazis for friends isn't normal, and people who don't have such friends aren't abnormal in some way. The problem, as per usual, is that Atlasians have only the vaguest understanding of normal social interactions. They assume that because they have online acquaintances who are at the political extremes, "normies" who care less about politics would be even less likely to care if a friend was a Nazi who wanted to kill Jews. This is a fallacy. Normal people don't have Nazi friends who want to kill Jews.

Self identified Jew-hating Nazis are actually very uncommon and form a vanishingly small proportion of the population. Your average person wouldn't be expected to have the acquaintance of a single one, even without making the effort to form their friendships based on political beliefs. Normal people don't even have to make the decision about whether or not to become friends with a Nazi who hates Jews, because the situation never presents itself. That being said, in the rare cases where it does, the majority of the population rejects such friendships.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

There is nothing inherently unethical with having friends with extreme politics. And acting like that is the case only helps extremist politicians.

Is it unethical to be your friend?

My politics are not extreme. I'm about as 'generic liberal Democrat' as it comes.

You've said it's "child abuse" to not allow a child to medically and surgically transition. That is extreme.   If generic liberal Democrats support that, they are extreme.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

There's a difference between "I don't have any friends with political views different from my own" and "I don't have any friends who self-identify as Nazis and want to kill Jews." Obviously. The hell is wrong with you people?

Despite the bizarre insinuation from Atlas users that having Nazis for friends is normal and that it is those who don't who are abnormal in some way, this is untrue. The problem, as per usual, is that Atlasians have only the vaguest understanding of normal social interactions. They assume that because they have online acquaintances who are at the political extremes, "normies" who care less about politics would be even less likely to care if a friend was a Nazi who wanted to kill Jews. This is a fallacy. Normal people don't have Nazi friends who want to kill Jews.

Self identified Jew-hating Nazis are actually very uncommon and form a vanishingly small proportion of the population. Your average person wouldn't be expected to have the acquaintance of a single one, even without making the effort to form their friendships based on political beliefs. Normal people don't even have to make the decision about whether or not to become friends with a Nazi who hates Jews, because the situation never presents itself. That being said, in the rare cases where it does, the majority of the population rejects such friendships.

And there's also a difference between "you must be friends with anyone with any kind of politics no matter what" and "social isolation for people of extreme politics is  essentially an option of last resort". I can't speak for everyone against Ferguson's take, but I am arguing the latter instead of the former.

The maintenance of civic peace is an important endeavor. For all those who are so capable, there ought to be some sort of duty on an individual level to do what we can so that there is even one less person who would commit a violent and threatening act. Troublesome structural forces are at work and things we have used in the past to restrain them no longer work as well. Should we fail to restrain the impact this has on us as a whole, we will have made our own bed.

That being said, I'm kind of tired of debating this specific point so this is the last post I plan to make in this conversation.

[Ferguson97]

I note that you have yet to actually engage with what I'm saying (including the things about radical echo chambers...especially that part) and keep going behind the "but they're Nazis!" line. As if that's the by-all-and-end-all of discussion.

It is the by-all-end-all.

How much hope do we have to fight hate crime if we let still more people fall through the cracks?

I'm not talking about people who are on their way to radicalization, I'm talking about the people who are already fully radicalized. And you fight hate crime by prosecuting those who commit hate crimes.

How is there supposed to be any hope for deprogramming these people?

There is no hope for deprogramming them.

There's no shortage of room for radical people to find like-minded types. It's our job as a society to work to minimize that as a number and not abdicate our duty to educate or at least constructively reduce it through our behavior.

You cannot convince a Nazi to stop being a Nazi.

My religious community generally maintains an approach of dialogue and discouraging of the worst of impulses and even then you have people who do terrible acts. God knows how awful it would be if we only aided it by acting in the opposite way. The Muslim community trying your approach in the early 2000s would have been an abject disaster.

Not even remotely comparable.

If you read your history, you'd be aware that a cordon sanitaire failed in pre-1945 Europe in restraining Nazism. What makes you think a complete reliance on a cordon sanitaire would succeed if tried again?

Not even remotely comparable, you're talking about a major political party refusing to cooperate with another political party. There is no viable Nazi Party in America, largely because such a party would be rejected and ostrasized.


I'll say it for you again: allowing Nazis into polite company will not result in the deprogramming of Nazis. They are a lost cause.

Instead, what will happen is the Nazi's views will be treated as legitimate, giving them a platform to preach their hate and convert people who are prone to radicalization and conspiracy thinking, in addition to putting the lives of Jews and other minorities at risk.

Nazis must be completely and wholly rejected and shunned by society if there is any hope of eradicating Nazism.

You keep trying to make this a broader argument about political disagreements, and I am going to make it extremely clear to you that I am specifically talking about literal Jew-hating/Hitler-loving/Holocaust-defending/swastika-wearing Nazis. These people are extremely rare, yes, but they're also beyond all hope. They are a disease, and we cannot risk them infecting the public.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

They are a disease, and we cannot risk them infecting the public.

I hope you recognize the irony in talking about people this way in the context of nazism.

[Fuzzy Bear Loves Christian Missionaries]

They are a disease, and we cannot risk them infecting the public.

I hope you recognize the irony in talking about people this way in the context of nazism.

Imagine a world where Ferguson97 got to decide who was and wasn't a "Nazi".

[Atlas Force]

Huge FF, and a great example in how to successfully sell shrinking the government to ordinary people. Hopefully every US state will get their own Scott Walker.

[Ferguson97]

They are a disease, and we cannot risk them infecting the public.

I hope you recognize the irony in talking about people this way in the context of nazism.

Lmao there’s a difference between disparaging Nazis and disparaging Jews.

[Xing]

We literally have people ackshullying about being friends with Nazis. Few things surprise me these days, but I did not expect this forum to fall this far.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

We literally have people ackshullying about being friends with Nazis. Few things surprise me these days, but I did not expect this forum to fall this far.

No we don't. "People" is plural so there needs to be more than one. And nothing from that one posted should shock you.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

We literally have people ackshullying about being friends with Nazis. Few things surprise me these days, but I did not expect this forum to fall this far.

No we don't. "People" is plural so there needs to be more than one. And nothing from that one posted should shock you.

Back in 2017 I was kind of close to some guy called "countryclassSF" who was very pro-Trump and to some degree not very friendly to Islam as a religion at all. I had little political agreement with him. In Atlasforum IRC Al/Shibboleth told me I should stop talking to him and laid forth some reasons, but I plainly and flatly refused. And so that was that.
I readily admit that many would strongly disagree with my personal stance on this. But I did leave something of a positive impression on him and he did like me. Maybe the willingness to do this sort of thing renders me quasi-sui generis. Either way, it's clear I'm not entirely alone in feeling that dialogue and the willingness to engage in it is broadly a positive, though I'm definitely in the minority.

Being willing to be friendly to people of vastly varied politics from me has never been difficult for me, and that is something I display both IRL and online. Those are tendencies I had in 2017 and they are also tendencies I had now. And they've been reinforced by changes in my politics - such as a stronger sense of light-touch-prudence-politics. I do have a particular focus on a need for national unity, something reflecting my unabashed Obamaite background. The governing philosophy of Obama (a man whose healthcare law has significantly benefited me personally) shaped a lot of things about the way I see the world and I have yet to see something that could better handle the complex job of government in this country in a nuanced, healthy way, even if other tendencies can and thankfully do influence the body politik.

I am glad that an effectively Obama-style Democrat, Biden, won the primaries in 2020, and won over Trump. God bless this great country.

I understand that this is a rather uncommon general sort of frame to look at all this, but I'm used to that fact, and the consequences. Most people aren't coming from where I am coming from, and that's fine. It's when the management of the county careens into unmanageable division that it really becomes a huge problem.