Lack of Conversation

[Virginiá]

I'll be honest, the main reason I originally joined was because this forum used to only be available to members on election night and 10 years ago it was hard to find a centralized website compiling election result updates for all of the obscure races in real time with maps. Any chance we can go members only this November?

To encourage new registrations or ?

Either way, we might have to, because the server tends to get slammed with traffic on federal election nights. I know that based on the way the database is configured and what hardware the server has right now, it likely can't handle a presidential election surge in traffic for the days leading up to and including election night. I'm still working with Dave on this.

[Virginiá]

I might be nitpicking here, but, 2013-14?  Really?  I always had that exact date as the low point for Atlas.  That was the time of opebo's banning, Inksgate, Update spiraling out of control and into  other forums, and clique culture being at an all-time high here.  The Atlas left fought with each other all the time, usually over stupid sh!t and personality rather than honest political/ideological differences.

(Perhaps fittingly, I also mark that as the point when US politics took the turn for the worst; the online left went fully into woke mode and the right did Gamergate. )

Everyone seems to have a different reason for why they think the forum has gone downhill. Personally, I think it's just natural for long-time users to think this way, because the forum is constantly evolving as new users join and older users leave. People change, political opinions shift, discussion (or lack thereof) evolves based on what party is currently agitating the populace, and so on. Another issue at play I think is that long-time users just develop pet peeves that aren't that big of a deal at first, but over the years develops into a bigger and bigger annoyance. Eventually people just leave because they aren't interested enough anymore to put up with it. It's particularly true for a large public forum with high user turnover. A smaller forum with a steady user base might avoid this because not much changes.

I try not to worry about this too much. There is nothing to be done about it.

[Former President tack50]

I might be nitpicking here, but, 2013-14?  Really?  I always had that exact date as the low point for Atlas.  That was the time of opebo's banning, Inksgate, Update spiraling out of control and into  other forums, and clique culture being at an all-time high here.  The Atlas left fought with each other all the time, usually over stupid sh!t and personality rather than honest political/ideological differences.

(Perhaps fittingly, I also mark that as the point when US politics took the turn for the worst; the online left went fully into woke mode and the right did Gamergate. )

Everyone seems to have a different reason for why they think the forum has gone downhill. Personally, I think it's just natural for long-time users to think this way, because the forum is constantly evolving as new users join and older users leave. People change, political opinions shift, discussion (or lack thereof) evolves based on what party is currently agitating the populace, and so on. Another issue at play I think is that long-time users just develop pet peeves that aren't that big of a deal at first, but over the years develops into a bigger and bigger annoyance. Eventually people just leave because they aren't interested enough anymore to put up with it. It's particularly true for a large public forum with high user turnover. A smaller forum with a steady user base might avoid this because not much changes.

I try not to worry about this too much. There is nothing to be done about it.

Ironically I find Atlas to actually be that kind of forum with a steady user base. The state avatars also help a lot compared to a place like reddit, but I recognize a lot more names and colored state avatars here than I do in other forums I visit. Atlas/Talk Elections is in fact really the first time where I actually got somewhat close with certain posters, though that also has to do with the Discord servers and what not (I guess the #AtlasForum IRC used to play this role way back in the day)

[100% pro-life no matter what]

I’m not saying that this place should become something like a pee-review journal, but there should be more conversations and understanding here.

The political tribal mentality got so bad I wouldn't hope for an improvement.

Most of my in-depth discussions nowadays are being done via PM.

That sounds really f•••ing bad, s•••. Tell us, we’re there warning signs of what was to come before 2015/6?

Honestly, 2015 was a good year for Atlas discussion in that a lot of the toxic hacks took their schitposting offsite and for a time there was less nastiness and imbecilic 1 sentence posts. Immediately before that summer there were what seemed to be a dozen or so Atlas Democrat "institutions" on here engaging in a prolonged spam campaign where they all pretended to be Trump supporters and would just post page after page of purposefully misspelled caveman parody posts about how they am ironic trump supporter because they am have big brains and Trump am good Trump Trump Trump and then empty quote each other to derail any discussion about non-Trump Republicans. It was extremely obnoxious but it was largely the Update crowd so a lot of them moved over to AAD. They banned me over there after a month but I recall there being a thread the first month that was like 5 pages of nothing but empty quotes of the word "TRUMP". Probably the earliest example of TDS although at the time they were hardcore pushing him specifically to "help Hillary win". Maybe we can get lucky and have another mass exodus of one-lining hacks soon.

I remember how annoying that was in the 2016 primaries as a Republican who didn't think Trump was a "real Republican" at the time.

In general, I agree with the premise of this thread, but think that is unfortunately symptomatic of politics right now.  It's all about whether you love Trump or hate Trump (no middle ground is tolerated), rather than the actual issues.  Likewise, both sides seem to be looking for cheap attacks they can use against the other, rather than discussing the actual issues.

[Hindsight was 2020]

It's difficult to engage in conversation when some of the interlocutors can't even agree on the same reality, much less the nuances, political or not, of such a reality.

While I've largely stopped effort posting for the reasons that many posters have already indicated above, I have had the opportunity to engage in multiple meaningful conversations with folks from across the political spectrum here on different topics.

One of my most memorable was with Fuzzy on PR Statehood, about a year ago, I think.

Pretty much. There are plenty of none leftist like Dule and OSR that I get along with discussion wise fine but someone like say Fuzzy who as far as I’m concerned is massively hypocritical about his stances like say the arguments he made about Trump's actions during the Russia and Ukraine scandals verses his posts in the Obamagate thread. Maybe he’s not arguing in some partisan driven bad faith and really is in just some alternative reality but there inlines the issue because he’s either a hypocrite which I can’t respect or we just live in two different realities which makes a discussion impossible because we can’t fundamentally agree on what we are even debating

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Maybe in the post Trump era, this forum will return to the 2013-2014 era, which was before PSOL's time but basically in line with what he's desiring. I'd welcome that as much as anyone. But it won't happen when Lyndon and ProudModerate2 are allowed to cavort around.

I might be nitpicking here, but, 2013-14?  Really?  I always had that exact date as the low point for Atlas.  That was the time of opebo's banning, Inksgate, Update spiraling out of control and into  other forums, and clique culture being at an all-time high here.  The Atlas left fought with each other all the time, usually over stupid sh!t and personality rather than honest political/ideological differences.

(Perhaps fittingly, I also mark that as the point when US politics took the turn for the worst; the online left went fully into woke mode and the right did Gamergate. )

Maybe I remember things more fondly than they actually were.

[PSOL]

Snip

I think such a split is a once in a forum’s lifetime thing. There really isn’t a possibility of a split occurring again from any side thanks to Discord and support servers meeting said requirement. Although that change hasn’t helped discussion at all.

[#TheShadowyAbyss]

Theres really no point in effort posting here anymore i gave up on it years ago. Now if I want to say something serious i stick to doing it on discord.

[Wikipedia delenda est]

I dunno, I've really enjoyed my recent conversations with Truman, Yankee, and others on the history board. I've learned a lot, my mind has been changed now and then, and the debates have generally been friendly and non-confrontational.

[FEMA Camp Administrator]

What language are you learning?

по-русский

Хорошо, товарищ!

[Virginiá]

Not that I'm on Discord that much but if anything, it seems less serious than this forum.

[RINO Tom]

Whether people admit it or not, the vast majority of us come here for interaction.  It's only human nature for us all to tailor which subforums we frequent and which types of topics we choose to respond to based on how we've been received in the past.  I can only really comment on my own experience or viewpoint, but has nobody noticed that the USGD forum participation of blue avatars has plummeted over the years?  You can say that's because all of us should just be so embarrassed by the Trump Administration (whose every word we are forced to defend lest we be ridiculed for even being a Republican), but that would simply make the problem worse.  I would argue it's because we know exactly what we're getting ourselves into, and a lot of us don't even bother.  Nobody cares what I have to say in that forum, and I don't feel like being ridiculed.  The basic structure is 1) embarrassingly wordsmithed headline to make a conservative look bad (or even worse), 2) a chorus of people ragging on said conservative, literally all saying the exact same thing, forming a sort of bonding interaction over the topic and 3) said chorus turning like a group of vultures on whatever blue avatar is brave, stupid or indifferent enough to post.  I mean ... it's not fun, especially when there doesn't really seem to be any appetite at all to hear what we really have to say; we're just being baited so you can tell us how <insert bad adjective ranging from classist to racist to sexist> we are.

Again, I can only speak to my OWN experience, but kind of echoing what Sanchez was saying ... why would I try to improve conversation?  I spent months and months on here screaming into the wind, and all it did was affect my own feelings negatively.  If someone wants to start a thread talking about how dumb or mean or flawed a Republican or Republicans as a whole are and what they really want is a bunch of people to agree and one token blue avatar to join so they can shlt on that poster ... okay, I'll let them have that.  But I'm not going to be the blue avatar, haha.

In 2012, I would have joined a USGD thread to defend Mitt Romney saying corporations were people, because ... uh, they are.  Anyone with any knowledge of how any corporation works and where they all started at some point in history knows exactly what he meant.  Looking back, though, I ask myself why I even cared?  Those threads aren't filled with people who are open to new ideas or changing their minds or desiring input that is based on RINO Tom's professional experience, education and life story ... so, I shouldn't be arrogant or stupid enough to impose that on them.  I'll stick to the Forum Community and Off Topic sections (USUALLY people aren't that big of dicks there...), History (so many good posters of all avatars there who are nice to converse with, knowledgeable and are open minded) and I'll occasionally be so bored or feel so strongly about something that I will feel a need to post somewhere else.  I don't know the answer to the problem you noticed, but I'll say I agree with it.  Whatever that's worth.

[PSOL]

I dunno, I've really enjoyed my recent conversations with Truman, Yankee, and others on the history board. I've learned a lot, my mind has been changed now and then, and the debates have generally been friendly and non-confrontational.

Yeah, on barely frequented boards discussion is much, much better.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Sanchez, X, and RINO Tom all sum up most of what I would say to this. In the last few years, I've mostly tried to avoid situations (IRL and on the forum) where I would get drawn into political arguments, simply because it seems like there's so little point: very few people are open to changing or even modifying their opinion, and I don't care as much as I did at 17-18 anyways. That's not even to say I feel alienated from the mainstream in the way that someone like Sanchez is on Atlas, it's just that there's very little worth reading on the high-volume boards. I find having non-political conversations with intelligent people I might not necessarily agree with on public affairs is a far more effective and enjoyable way to expand my horizons than arguing with a bunch of low-effort hacks. Maybe there's value in that for some people, but not for me at this stage in my life.

The History board is a whole different story, perhaps because there are maybe a dozen or so users who post there regularly.

[PSOL]

Sanchez, X, and RINO Tom all sum up most of what I would say to this. In the last few years, I've mostly tried to avoid situations (IRL and on the forum) where I would get drawn into political arguments, simply because it seems like there's so little point: very few people are open to changing or even modifying their opinion, and I don't care as much as I did at 17-18 anyways. That's not even to say I feel alienated from the mainstream in the way that someone like Sanchez is on Atlas, it's just that there's very little worth reading on the high-volume boards. I find having non-political conversations with intelligent people I might not necessarily agree with on public affairs is a far more effective and enjoyable way to expand my horizons than arguing with a bunch of low-effort hacks. Maybe there's value in that for some people, but not for me at this stage in my life.

The History board is a whole different story, perhaps because there are maybe a dozen or so users who post there regularly.

Do you think it’s a problem of size or a lack of people willing to actually care to hold a conversation? Is Atlas too “mainstream”.

[Unconditional Surrender Truman]

Sanchez, X, and RINO Tom all sum up most of what I would say to this. In the last few years, I've mostly tried to avoid situations (IRL and on the forum) where I would get drawn into political arguments, simply because it seems like there's so little point: very few people are open to changing or even modifying their opinion, and I don't care as much as I did at 17-18 anyways. That's not even to say I feel alienated from the mainstream in the way that someone like Sanchez is on Atlas, it's just that there's very little worth reading on the high-volume boards. I find having non-political conversations with intelligent people I might not necessarily agree with on public affairs is a far more effective and enjoyable way to expand my horizons than arguing with a bunch of low-effort hacks. Maybe there's value in that for some people, but not for me at this stage in my life.

The History board is a whole different story, perhaps because there are maybe a dozen or so users who post there regularly.

Do you think it’s a problem of size or a lack of people willing to actually care to hold a conversation? Is Atlas too “mainstream”.

I think that we're living at a moment in history when our society is under an immense amount of pressure socially, spiritually, and economically, and under these circumstances opposing ideologies can appear as an existential threat. I don't know what the solution is, or whether there is a solution. Maybe the best we can do is to try to be good people in our own lives and learn from each other when we can.

[gerritcole]

Atlas is not special though it likes to think so. Cheap political points define USGD

[Orwell]

I might be nitpicking here, but, 2013-14?  Really?  I always had that exact date as the low point for Atlas.  That was the time of opebo's banning, Inksgate, Update spiraling out of control and into  other forums, and clique culture being at an all-time high here.  The Atlas left fought with each other all the time, usually over stupid sh!t and personality rather than honest political/ideological differences.

(Perhaps fittingly, I also mark that as the point when US politics took the turn for the worst; the online left went fully into woke mode and the right did Gamergate. )

Everyone seems to have a different reason for why they think the forum has gone downhill. Personally, I think it's just natural for long-time users to think this way, because the forum is constantly evolving as new users join and older users leave. People change, political opinions shift, discussion (or lack thereof) evolves based on what party is currently agitating the populace, and so on. Another issue at play I think is that long-time users just develop pet peeves that aren't that big of a deal at first, but over the years develops into a bigger and bigger annoyance. Eventually people just leave because they aren't interested enough anymore to put up with it. It's particularly true for a large public forum with high user turnover. A smaller forum with a steady user base might avoid this because not much changes.

I try not to worry about this too much. There is nothing to be done about it.

I blame the immigrants!

[morgieb]

Not that I'm on Discord that much but if anything, it seems less serious than this forum.

Yeah but at the same time most people get along there and there isn't the same kind of cheap point scoring that you see at times here.

I think the unfortunate truth is that political discussion everywhere in the Trump era is just far too toxic. Such polarisation makes it very hard to have constructive debates.

I don't think recommendations have helped either.

[Former President tack50]

Not that I'm on Discord that much but if anything, it seems less serious than this forum.

Yeah but at the same time most people get along there and there isn't the same kind of cheap point scoring that you see at times here.

I think the unfortunate truth is that political discussion everywhere in the Trump era is just far too toxic. Such polarisation makes it very hard to have constructive debates.

I don't think recommendations have helped either.

Tbf most people tend to get along because Discord often quickly devolves into echo chambers and/or closed cliques. I am sure this also happened with the #AtlasForum IRC back in the day.

The discussion might be less toxic with less cheap points but it is also less serious than on Atlas I suppose. Plus of course the Discords are not open to everybody and you need to have contacts. I myself got invited via PM to one out of nowhere and went on from there, but spent basically my first year and a half on Atlas without knowing what a Discord even was.

They are nice places to be in and I like them, but they are often cliques, and they have been getting much more clique-ey since I joined the Discord for the first time I think.

[John Dule]

So I kind of have been thinking on why this board is the way it is, and I think one of the main drags is a lack of conversation with one another. Looking through most posts, conversation is actually a rarity in Atlas. Most seem to just say a statement to the crowd or say a cheesy statement, there’s actually very little discussion. I notice more conversation happening in Atlasia then the rest of the forum, and old timers and recent happenings show that that’s a dying art in a political simulation mind you.

A personal anecdote is my own experiences. While I have views that are not part of the “mainstream”, you would have thought that there would be people willing to debate with me? Wrong, just ignoring of my statement or a weak whatever statement. I recently had some amazing conversations with KaiserDave, New Frontier, Lumine, Donnerrail, and bordigasm this month on various interesting topics that all ended differently. The problem is that this is not just the exception to me, but the whole board. Very few people on this board attempt dialogue, and these same few posters. Most is just emptiness and very persistent s•••posting.

To put it simply, very few people are actually willing to have a dialogue on these types of conversations, most prefer just to give a statement to the crowd with little follow-up. Nothing surprising, right? Well, the fact that this is a forum dedicated to politics with no discussion is telling of the state of this forum. It shows that something is wrong. I’ve been to small niche forums with weaker moderation and stricter ideological lines than this one, and there’s more conversation and interaction between users. This forum, at least de facto, is open to everyone yet conversation is rare, even among people with close ideologies.

What if, stay with me now, Atlas is a microcosm of the wider world. Remember how bored the R congresspersons were during impeachment, or when the Oregon conservative state rep delegation decided to bail on voting for legislation? Perhaps I need to make this bipartisan so as to not seem biased. What about when liberals just flat out ignore the plight of homeless people, or the lack of care on explaining how and why Trump got into office? I’m not trying to say I’m right or people who think like me are right, I’ve demonstrated before that I accept and wholeheartedly admit when I’m wrong when it does occur. But in a political forum operating during the worst polarization and political crisis in this nations history for a while, the fact that conversation is rare, much less good conversation, is telling.

What are your thoughts on this? Please, I’d like to open the floor to all posters to share their thoughts.

Bruh, every time I try to have a serious conversation with you, you tell me that I'm a "white resentment poster" or that my views "overlap" with neo-Nazis. I'm happy to engage in constructive discourse but that's not easy when half the posters on here are constantly trying to read malicious intent into everything I say.

[PSOL]

Lmao, that just isn’t true.

[John Dule]

Lmao, that just isn’t true.

I love the search feature on this site. Wish I could do this sort of thing in real life.

Well the white resentment posters are out in the limelight tonight!

Don't be shy. Name names.

Fine; you, Fuzzy. Yellowhammer, and Averroes.

I am routinely saddened by how close-minded this site is. Everyone is capable of redemption and changing their beliefs, but you have to give them the chance to do so first. The number of people who aren't interested in starting that dialogue on a political discussion forum is a testament to how we're socialized to not listen to one another.

Be honest my man, you support what you support for your own interests since you clearly may intersect in the eyes of some here on these categories. We all may intersect, and those against such a decision may have skin in this game as well, but come out and admit it.

[PSOL]

Lmao, that just isn’t true.

I love the search feature on this site. Wish I could do this sort of thing in real life.

Well the white resentment posters are out in the limelight tonight!

Don't be shy. Name names.

Fine; you, Fuzzy. Yellowhammer, and Averroes.

I am routinely saddened by how close-minded this site is. Everyone is capable of redemption and changing their beliefs, but you have to give them the chance to do so first. The number of people who aren't interested in starting that dialogue on a political discussion forum is a testament to how we're socialized to not listen to one another.

Be honest my man, you support what you support for your own interests since you clearly may intersect in the eyes of some here on these categories. We all may intersect, and those against such a decision may have skin in this game as well, but come out and admit it.

I admit that I at times make mistakes and don’t practice what I preach most of the time, yet a few cherry-picked examples is unfair of my wider time here.

[John Dule]

I admit that I at times make mistakes and don’t practice what I preach most of the time, yet a few cherry-picked examples is unfair of my wider time here.

Fair enough. I just wanted to note that the "Come on right-winger, tell me what you really think" attitude among some leftists on here (not just you) is a big contributor to the lack of positive discourse on this site. It puts libertarians and center-right people on the defensive.