Super Tuesday if Warren dropped out.

[Chester County Anti-populist]

How would Super Tuesday have turned out if Warren dropped out?

My guess is Bernie would have definitely won Maine and Massachusetts, probably narrowly won Minnesota, and maybe edged it out in Texas.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

This probably belongs in the 'What ifs' board.

Assuming it was after SC, it would depend on the manner in which she dropped out. If she endorsed him, that would help the most with driving a positive news cycle for Sanders (an absolute must at that point), but even if she dropped out in a relatively non-hostile manner, it could trigger a wave of endorsements of Sanders from progressives who held out while two of their favourites were in the race. Then, the media narrative could have been 'factions pick their champions' as opposed to 'the gang unites to stop Bernie [while progressives awkwardly flail in the background]'.

[EJ24]

It wouldn't have made as much of a difference as some think. Warren's base would've split between Biden and Bernie. A lot of them were very bitter towards the Sanders camp - at least the ones who still supported Warren by Super Tuesday.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

It wouldn't have made as much of a difference as some think. Warren's base would've split between Biden and Bernie. A lot of them were very bitter towards the Sanders camp - at least the ones who still supported Warren by Super Tuesday.

Without an endorsement, absolutely, but Buttigieg's and Klobuchar's only broke so hard for Biden because of their endorsements and an overwhelmingly positive news cycle for Biden, among other factors (the latter also shifted non-Klobuchar/Buttigieg voters to Biden's camp). If the withdrawal from the race was at least non-hostile and led to a tranche of fresh Sanders endorsements, that could trigger a positive news cycle for Sanders, shifting some floating voters both inside and outside the Warren camp. There were Bloomberg to Sanders to Biden voters out there, and I find it hard to imagine that they were inevitably going to be Biden voters given how far and often they drifted.

[Ferguson97]

Biden still wins, but Sanders might take longer to drop out. IDK how their campaigning or the primaries would be impacted by covid-19 - the pandemic is way too much of a wildcard to really say anything for certainty.

Maybe people would've flocked to Bernie because M4A.

Maybe people would've flocked to Biden harder because he represents safety and normalcy.

Who knows?

[Rookie Yinzer]

More delegates for Uncle Joe.

Nobody wanted Bernie outside of his little 30-35 percent.

[brucejoel99]

Bernie would've still lost to Biden hands down. Every poll on the subject showed Warren supporters basically split 50/50 between Biden & Bernie. Her dropping out wouldn't have changed anything.

If I've said it once, I'll say it a thousand times: Bernie & his surrogates' divisive rhetoric & holier-than-thou attitude were the reasons he lost. His campaign doubled down on them & basically spent all of its time courting voters that were already his instead of trying to actually build a coalition.

Nobody wanted Bernie outside of his little 30-35 percent.

Yeah, this. Bernie's core demographic (young voters between the ages of 18-39) had turnouts between 5-19% on Super Tuesday. That's just pathetic.

[Lief 🗽]

Sanders might win Maine and Massachusetts, but it really looks like Warren supporters mostly split 50-50 after she dropped out.

[Alben Barkley]

Warren's base was about evenly split between Biden and Bernie according to polls.

Bloomberg's base, however, was not, with the vast majority preferring Biden over Bernie. The more interesting question then is what if BLOOMBERG dropped out? In that case Biden might have dominated even more than he actually did.

[Rookie Yinzer]

Bloomberg's base, however, was not, with the vast majority preferring Biden over Bernie. The more interesting question then is what if BLOOMBERG dropped out? In that case Biden might have dominated even more than he actually did.

Bloomberg did best in Black counties so yeah Biden would have just had a bigger lead. LOL.

[Alben Barkley]

There were Bloomberg to Sanders to Biden voters out there, and I find it hard to imagine that they were inevitably going to be Biden voters given how far and often they drifted.

Maybe there were like 10 people that fit that pattern in the entire country. But the vast, VAST majority of Bloomberg supporters (who were more of the vote in most Super Tuesday states than Warren supporters) had Biden as their second choice, FAR above Bernie. There is no scenario in which Bloomberg dropping out somehow benefits Bernie rather than Biden. Absolutely fantastical thinking. But all along, Warren's people were not nearly as positive about Sanders. After all, her coalition was essentially a blend of progressives and people loyal to the Democratic establishment (including a lot of Hillary voters still bitter over 2016). So it made sense her people would not be in lockstep behind Bernie if she dropped out, and the polls showing them about evenly split between him and Biden did not surprise me in the least.

Meanwhile, Bloomberg supporters were again overwhelmingly behind Biden over Bernie, which makes sense because Bloomberg and Bernie were basically total opposites. So if you take like 90% of Bloomberg supporters and 50% of Warren supporters and give them to Biden on Super Tuesday, it's just more of a bloodbath than it actually was. If only Warren drops out, Bernie might get a slight boost but overall the effect is negligible. If just Bloomberg drops out, still a Biden bloodbath. There is no scenario in which the tide actually turns in Sanders's favor.

Sorry, but this latest, desperate attempt at Bernie Math is just as BS as all previous attempts at Bernie Math always have been. The numbers simply were NOT on his side.

Also, Warren didn't endorse Bernie when she did drop out and she never was going to. Like in 2016, she was gonna endorse the nominee whoever that would be. Probably didn't help that Bernie's people called her a "snake" constantly, Bernie himself did nothing to temper the rhetoric of his supporters, and he apparently decided to run against her because he didn't think a woman could win. He sealed his own fate. If his ego wasn't so big and he had decided to throw his weight behind Warren all along, good chance she would be the nominee right now.

[Fmr. Gov. NickG]

The -really- more interesting question is what would have happened if the panic over the virus had hit two weeks earlier and most of the Super Tuesday primaries had to be postponed.

[Epaminondas]

Bernie would have definitely won Maine and Massachusetts, probably narrowly won Minnesota, and maybe edged it out in Texas.

That sounds right. Though it may not have mattered much ultimately, nothing was changing the minds of Black voters about Uncle Joe.

If Bernie's ego wasn't so big and he had decided to throw his weight behind Warren all along, good chance she would be the nominee right now.

Bernie & his surrogates' divisive rhetoric & holier-than-thou attitude were the reasons he lost.

Your bitterness must be hard to carry, you should breathe some fresh air outside the forum.

In 2016, Clinton supporters spoke in the same condescending manner towards the new Democrats Bernie would have brought in the fold. Instead, you turned them off and enabled Trump.
I hope it was worth it.

[brucejoel99]

Bernie & his surrogates' divisive rhetoric & holier-than-thou attitude were the reasons he lost.

Your bitterness must be hard to carry, you should breathe some fresh air outside the forum.

In 2016, Clinton supporters spoke in the same condescending manner towards the new Democrats Bernie would have brought in the fold. Instead, you turned them off and enabled Trump.
I hope it was worth it.

"I'm not comfortable hearing the truth so I'll just attack in response to it."

[Alben Barkley]

Bernie would have definitely won Maine and Massachusetts, probably narrowly won Minnesota, and maybe edged it out in Texas.

That sounds right. Though it may not have mattered much ultimately, nothing was changing the minds of Black voters about Uncle Joe.

If Bernie's ego wasn't so big and he had decided to throw his weight behind Warren all along, good chance she would be the nominee right now.

Bernie & his surrogates' divisive rhetoric & holier-than-thou attitude were the reasons he lost.

Your bitterness must be hard to carry, you should breathe some fresh air outside the forum.

In 2016, Clinton supporters spoke in the same condescending manner towards the new Democrats Bernie would have brought in the fold. Instead, you turned them off and enabled Trump.
I hope it was worth it.

Anybody who voted for Trump because their feelings were hurt by somebody who dared not to worship their cult leader (literally all I said was that his ego was too big and the best thing for his own movement would have been to get behind the less divisive Warren rather than split the progressive vote with her and allow his surrogates to bitterly attack her and alienate all her supporters) was never an ally in the first place. They were probably never going to vote for Hillary or Biden and were just looking for an excuse to vote for Trump. Definitely isn't the kind of person whose vote is worth pursuing. I'd rather look for moderate ex-Republicans in the suburbs any day now. In no small part because they're pragmatic and best of all, they actually vote. The Lincoln Project has already done 1000 times more of substance than Bernie ever has in terms of helping Democrats win a general election campaign.

As for your comment about black voters, talk about "bitter" with maybe just a hint of racism on the side. WHITE voters turned on Bernie on Super Tuesday. That's why he did lose states like MA, ME, and MN. That's why his performance was underwhelming relative to 2016 and expectations in IA, NH, and even VT! This time it wasn't just black voters who sunk Bernie, but also white voters (indeed, the rural white working class who Bernie and his groupies loved to go on about for four years) who were rightly skeptical about a Castro lover's prospects in a general election. Even if Bernie did edge out MA and ME, it wouldn't have helped him much in the overall narrative. That day was supposed to be Bernie's big day, remember? And those states were supposed to be the easiest of all for him to win. Oh, how you all gloated about "Vote Blue No Matter Who, Right?" only to eat crow.

[Epaminondas]

I see, you guys are probably Black. That's cool, but social & cultural heuristics are just too deep-seated to agree on this issue.

Like the vast majority of Bernie supporters, now that Biden is the nominee I too hope he wins big.

[free my dawg]

Also, Warren didn't endorse Bernie when she did drop out and she never was going to. Like in 2016, she was gonna endorse the nominee whoever that would be. Probably didn't help that Bernie's people called her a "snake" constantly, Bernie himself did nothing to temper the rhetoric of his supporters, and he apparently decided to run against her because he didn't think a woman could win. He sealed his own fate. If his ego wasn't so big and he had decided to throw his weight behind Warren all along, good chance she would be the nominee right now.

A lot to unpack here:

* Nobody was beating Biden's coalition of black voters, "normalcy voters", and working-class whites. Not Bernie, not Warren, not Pete. Hell, I'd argue that Bernie's remaining supporter base would be more split between Biden and Warren than you'd think. Maybe not a 50-50 split, but closer to a 60-40 one. The gap between Bernie-to-Biden supporters and Bernie-to-Warren supporters isn't enough to push her over the top.

* Sure, Warren being the progressive flagbearer might stop Klobuchar's endorsement, but it doesn't stop Buttigieg's and I don't think it stops Beto's. In fact, I'd argue that Bernie was the better one-on-one candidate because of his performance among Latino voters, and that there would be a more even split of supporters. Quite frankly, this reads more like someone trying who thinks Bernie should be outcasted for daring to challenge Hillary in 2016.

Anybody who voted for Trump because their feelings were hurt by somebody who dared not to worship their cult leader (literally all I said was that his ego was too big and the best thing for his own movement would have been to get behind the less divisive Warren rather than split the progressive vote with her and allow his surrogates to bitterly attack her and alienate all her supporters) was never an ally in the first place. They were probably never going to vote for Hillary or Biden and were just looking for an excuse to vote for Trump. Definitely isn't the kind of person whose vote is worth pursuing. I'd rather look for moderate ex-Republicans in the suburbs any day now. In no small part because they're pragmatic and best of all, they actually vote. The Lincoln Project has already done 1000 times more of substance than Bernie ever has in terms of helping Democrats win a general election campaign.

As for your comment about black voters, talk about "bitter" with maybe just a hint of racism on the side. WHITE voters turned on Bernie on Super Tuesday. That's why he did lose states like MA, ME, and MN. That's why his performance was underwhelming relative to 2016 and expectations in IA, NH, and even VT! This time it wasn't just black voters who sunk Bernie, but also white voters (indeed, the rural white working class who Bernie and his groupies loved to go on about for four years) who were rightly skeptical about a Castro lover's prospects in a general election. Even if Bernie did edge out MA and ME, it wouldn't have helped him much in the overall narrative. That day was supposed to be Bernie's big day, remember? And those states were supposed to be the easiest of all for him to win. Oh, how you all gloated about "Vote Blue No Matter Who, Right?" only to eat crow.

Yes, please tell me about how my state's former Republican Party chair is more of a Democrat than I am. Because I'm absolutely dying to know how she's more of an ideal comrade to you than someone who's given his lifeblood for the party for years.

I wouldn't personally argue you stating accurate facts about the Bernie campaign is bitter and divisive. You gloating about their loss is, though.

[Alben Barkley]

Also, Warren didn't endorse Bernie when she did drop out and she never was going to. Like in 2016, she was gonna endorse the nominee whoever that would be. Probably didn't help that Bernie's people called her a "snake" constantly, Bernie himself did nothing to temper the rhetoric of his supporters, and he apparently decided to run against her because he didn't think a woman could win. He sealed his own fate. If his ego wasn't so big and he had decided to throw his weight behind Warren all along, good chance she would be the nominee right now.

A lot to unpack here:

* Nobody was beating Biden's coalition of black voters, "normalcy voters", and working-class whites. Not Bernie, not Warren, not Pete. Hell, I'd argue that Bernie's remaining supporter base would be more split between Biden and Warren than you'd think. Maybe not a 50-50 split, but closer to a 60-40 one. The gap between Bernie-to-Biden supporters and Bernie-to-Warren supporters isn't enough to push her over the top.

What's your model?

Where's your polling data to support that?

Everything I saw showed that the Warren base was indeed pretty evenly split between Bernie and Biden, but not that the Bernie base was equally evenly split between Biden and Warren. And in any case, my point was that if the man truly wanted what was best for his progressive movement, HE SHOULD NOT HAVE RUN IN THE FIRST PLACE. If he did that, if he was behind her the entire time, if he didn't incite his angry online mob to go full blast against the "snake" Warren, she at least would have had a better chance. It was only when Bernie entered the race a full month or two after Warren that I knew both were doomed. Bernie kamikazed her. How easily we forget that Warren was AHEAD of the entire field, Biden included, for some time. Without Bernie in the mix at all, it would have been MUCH easier for her to build off that.

* Sure, Warren being the progressive flagbearer might stop Klobuchar's endorsement, but it doesn't stop Buttigieg's and I don't think it stops Beto's. In fact, I'd argue that Bernie was the better one-on-one candidate because of his performance among Latino voters, and that there would be a more even split of supporters. Quite frankly, this reads more like someone trying who thinks Bernie should be outcasted for daring to challenge Hillary in 2016.

Oh, what gave it away?

Let me put it to you this way: I am someone who thinks Bernie should never have even been ALLOWED to challenge Hillary in 2016. I think that if you have not been a member of the party for several years, let alone literally never in your lifetime (which as far as I can tell Bernie has not been), you should not be allowed to hijack its primaries or participate in them at all. I also personally blame Bernie for the fact that Trump is president right now; I am 100% convinced that had he never run (which again I don't think he even should have been allowed to do), Hillary would have won in 2016.

That said, I disagree with your assertion that Bernie was a better one-on-one candidate against Biden. His supposed strength with Latinos is laughably overstated here to the point I physically roll my eyes every time I see anyone bring it up. He and Biden got statistically indistinguishable approval ratings in the last Latino Decisions poll. Biden crushed him with Latinos in Florida and tied him with Latinos in Arizona.

No, the reason Warren would have been a stronger candidate is that she had genuine appeal to Hillary 2016 voters that Bernie did not have, and that she was an actual Democrat who actually showed she eagerly wanted to participate in the party and had pragmatic proposals to improve its platform to make it more appealing rather than act like she was embarrassed to be associated with the party the way you and Bernie do. "InDePeNdEnT" my ass. That's just another way to spell "Republican." Warren could have bridged the gap between Bernie and Hillary 2016 and united the party's ideological and cultural divides; instead you decided you'd rather aggravate those divides. And you got rewarded with Biden. Congratulations!

Anybody who voted for Trump because their feelings were hurt by somebody who dared not to worship their cult leader (literally all I said was that his ego was too big and the best thing for his own movement would have been to get behind the less divisive Warren rather than split the progressive vote with her and allow his surrogates to bitterly attack her and alienate all her supporters) was never an ally in the first place. They were probably never going to vote for Hillary or Biden and were just looking for an excuse to vote for Trump. Definitely isn't the kind of person whose vote is worth pursuing. I'd rather look for moderate ex-Republicans in the suburbs any day now. In no small part because they're pragmatic and best of all, they actually vote. The Lincoln Project has already done 1000 times more of substance than Bernie ever has in terms of helping Democrats win a general election campaign.

As for your comment about black voters, talk about "bitter" with maybe just a hint of racism on the side. WHITE voters turned on Bernie on Super Tuesday. That's why he did lose states like MA, ME, and MN. That's why his performance was underwhelming relative to 2016 and expectations in IA, NH, and even VT! This time it wasn't just black voters who sunk Bernie, but also white voters (indeed, the rural white working class who Bernie and his groupies loved to go on about for four years) who were rightly skeptical about a Castro lover's prospects in a general election. Even if Bernie did edge out MA and ME, it wouldn't have helped him much in the overall narrative. That day was supposed to be Bernie's big day, remember? And those states were supposed to be the easiest of all for him to win. Oh, how you all gloated about "Vote Blue No Matter Who, Right?" only to eat crow.

Yes, please tell me about how my state's former Republican Party chair is more of a Democrat than I am. Because I'm absolutely dying to know how she's more of an ideal comrade to you than someone who's given his lifeblood for the party for years.

I wouldn't personally argue you stating accurate facts about the Bernie campaign is bitter and divisive. You gloating about their loss is, though.

OK: Your state's former Republican Party chairman is absolutely more of a Democrat than you are IF he/she is actively supporting the Biden campaign and doing everything they can to stop Trump while you continue to fight dead primary battles online while declaring yourself an "independent."

That's really not that complicated.

Anyone too embarrassed to proudly call themselves a Democrat is part of the problem, you see. You are directly playing to the Republican idea that Democrats are weak and divided and can't even bring themselves to proudly identify with their own party. That is a huge part of the reason I detest Bernie and don't think much more kindly of you.

I would never use the word "comrade," by the way, and would STRONGLY advise anyone claiming to represent the Democratic Party against that. It's part of the reason Bernie lost, you see. No one is asking you to give you your "lifeblood" either -- Jesus, why do commies have to be so dramatic about absolutely everything? -- just that you do your part to stop the most destructive administration in recent American history without whining about it the whole way. Should be a nobrainer.

As for my so-called "gloating," well indulge me a little. I got a LOT of gloating from Bernie people who were SO SURE he was going to win before Super Tuesday, and I STILL have not totally come down from the high that came when he lost badly and then was beaten to a pulp in several states he beat Hillary in. I'm trying to be the better man here, but my god it feels good to get a win and be proven totally right for a change. Especially after everyone thought you'd be wrong -- everyone here (who also mocked me for correctly predicting the KY 2019 governor race), people I know personally, even people in other forums who thought Bernie was the surefire nominee after New Hampshire. I stood alone saying "the guy tied there and got like 30% less than he did in 2016 -- are we sure we should be so quick to abandon Joe?" And I guess you could say I was rewarded for my faith. I ain't about to give it up now.

By the way, it takes a lot of guts to be a proud Democrat in Kentucky. Pretty easy I imagine by comparison to be an "independent" in New Hampshire. You're in a state where, for instance, simply saying that you believe LGBT people should have equal rights won't get you ostracized. You have the PRIVILEGE to be "independent." Meanwhile, out here in the real world, people are fighting for everything they can get. So forgive me if I find your "independent" party identification to be pretentious, obnoxious, and ignorant at best. Cowardly at worst. I frankly don't give two s--ts what you think about the Democratic Party or its nominee; you have voluntarily waived your right to have an opinion by refusing to join the party. That's your choice to do so, but don't think for a moment it won't cause people who ACTUALLY give everything they've got to helping this party in much more hostile states than New Hampshire to be a bit resentful of you.

[Alben Barkley]

Let me put it this way: Bernie supporters VASTLY underestimated the visceral hatred and resentment that the people who contribute all the blood, sweat, and tears to the Democratic Party felt towards an angry, holier-than-thou, finger-wagging white man from the middle of bumf--k nowhere Vermont who has never accomplished anything in his life, or even had to try hard to get anywhere, yet was daring to preach to us all about how he had all the answers and was so much better than us and our measly little party.  

It would have been the smallest possible of goodwill gestures to simply join the party after 2016, but he couldn’t even do that even though F--KING BLOOMBERG could! Now to this day he STILL won’t do it! He won’t even show up now to do his job for critical votes like the one to revoke the Patriot Act’s ability to spy on all our internet history without a warrant. He would have been the decisive vote! He can’t even do that, so how in the hell am I supposed to believe he could have been a good president? Can't do the job he's elected to do, can’t even make any good connections with the party closest to him in Congress (Hillary was right when she said nobody likes him), yet I’m supposed to believe for a second that he could have ever accomplished f--king ANYTHING?

WHY???

I’d have to be either willfully blind to reality or a f—king imbecile or both to believe this madman could ever accomplish anything but whine loud enough to derail our party’s chances in the most important election of our lifetime, destroying one of the most qualified presidential candidates in history in the process.

I will NEVER forgive him for that. And he absolutely deserves to go down in history as one of Trump’s top enablers. His name should be dragged through the mud for posterity just like Trump’s. He was just another symptom of the populist madness this country went through in the late 2010s that I can now only hope and pray won’t turn out to be fatal to us all.

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

There were Bloomberg to Sanders to Biden voters out there, and I find it hard to imagine that they were inevitably going to be Biden voters given how far and often they drifted.

Maybe there were like 10 people that fit that pattern in the entire country. But the vast, VAST majority of Bloomberg supporters (who were more of the vote in most Super Tuesday states than Warren supporters) had Biden as their second choice, FAR above Bernie. There is no scenario in which Bloomberg dropping out somehow benefits Bernie rather than Biden. Absolutely fantastical thinking. But all along, Warren's people were not nearly as positive about Sanders. After all, her coalition was essentially a blend of progressives and people loyal to the Democratic establishment (including a lot of Hillary voters still bitter over 2016). So it made sense her people would not be in lockstep behind Bernie if she dropped out, and the polls showing them about evenly split between him and Biden did not surprise me in the least.

Meanwhile, Bloomberg supporters were again overwhelmingly behind Biden over Bernie, which makes sense because Bloomberg and Bernie were basically total opposites. So if you take like 90% of Bloomberg supporters and 50% of Warren supporters and give them to Biden on Super Tuesday, it's just more of a bloodbath than it actually was. If only Warren drops out, Bernie might get a slight boost but overall the effect is negligible. If just Bloomberg drops out, still a Biden bloodbath. There is no scenario in which the tide actually turns in Sanders's favor.

Sorry, but this latest, desperate attempt at Bernie Math is just as BS as all previous attempts at Bernie Math always have been. The numbers simply were NOT on his side.

Also, Warren didn't endorse Bernie when she did drop out and she never was going to. Like in 2016, she was gonna endorse the nominee whoever that would be. Probably didn't help that Bernie's people called her a "snake" constantly, Bernie himself did nothing to temper the rhetoric of his supporters, and he apparently decided to run against her because he didn't think a woman could win. He sealed his own fate. If his ego wasn't so big and he had decided to throw his weight behind Warren all along, good chance she would be the nominee right now.

I had started off thinking this deserved a serious response, but the more this thread has gone on, the more it's clear your analysis - which I've found decent in other places - has been stunted, rather than just coloured, by jade-tinted glasses. This was supposed to be a thread to discuss 2020 hypotheticals, not dismiss them all as desperate and then relitigate It Was Her Turn in 2016.

Just going with Warren's accusation is particularly risible given it's been barely days after the Reade story emerged for (hopefully) the last time.

[free my dawg]

I guess I'll take a crack at this foaming-at-the-mouth rant:

What's your model?

Where's your polling data to support that?

Everything I saw showed that the Warren base was indeed pretty evenly split between Bernie and Biden, but not that the Bernie base was equally evenly split between Biden and Warren. And in any case, my point was that if the man truly wanted what was best for his progressive movement, HE SHOULD NOT HAVE RUN IN THE FIRST PLACE. If he did that, if he was behind her the entire time, if he didn't incite his angry online mob to go full blast against the "snake" Warren, she at least would have had a better chance. It was only when Bernie entered the race a full month or two after Warren that I knew both were doomed. Bernie kamikazed her. How easily we forget that Warren was AHEAD of the entire field, Biden included, for some time. Without Bernie in the mix at all, it would have been MUCH easier for her to build off that.

Bernie and Warren appeal to two different types of voters. Warren appeals to higher-information, educated wonk-types who are fine with the system. Sanders is an old-school, FDR left ideologue who wants to tear down the system. I'd argue he was competing as much with Biden for the old-school working class voters as he was with Warren. Bernie and Warren both have drastic stylistic differences that you're willfully ignoring. I'd argue that Buttigieg's ascension as the educated centrist alternative hurt Warren more than Bernie's campaign did.

I've always found the "X Progressive should drop out and endorse Y Progressive" to be lazy political analysis. Hell, I'd argue that Bernie only won NH because Warren ran. Her not running would have helped Buttigieg as much as it did Bernie.

Oh, what gave it away?

Let me put it to you this way: I am someone who thinks Bernie should never have even been ALLOWED to challenge Hillary in 2016. I think that if you have not been a member of the party for several years, let alone literally never in your lifetime (which as far as I can tell Bernie has not been), you should not be allowed to hijack its primaries or participate in them at all. I also personally blame Bernie for the fact that Trump is president right now; I am 100% convinced that had he never run (which again I don't think he even should have been allowed to do), Hillary would have won in 2016.

Kudos for you for at least admitting you believe Hillary was entitled to the nominee.

We never caused Trump. People like you did a far better job of that than we ever could.

That said, I disagree with your assertion that Bernie was a better one-on-one candidate against Biden. His supposed strength with Latinos is laughably overstated here to the point I physically roll my eyes every time I see anyone bring it up. He and Biden got statistically indistinguishable approval ratings in the last Latino Decisions poll. Biden crushed him with Latinos in Florida and tied him with Latinos in Arizona.

Right. I'll concede that he got crushed with Latinos in Florida. It's almost like most Latinos in Florida are different from Latinos in other states!

Never mind the obvious mitigating factors to his FL performance that you've already acknowledged exist. We can extrapolate that across every Latino. I'd also argue that the primary was already decided by the time AZ/FL rolled around.

No, the reason Warren would have been a stronger candidate is that she had genuine appeal to Hillary 2016 voters that Bernie did not have, and that she was an actual Democrat who actually showed she eagerly wanted to participate in the party and had pragmatic proposals to improve its platform to make it more appealing rather than act like she was embarrassed to be associated with the party the way you and Bernie do. "InDePeNdEnT" my ass. That's just another way to spell "Republican." Warren could have bridged the gap between Bernie and Hillary 2016 and united the party's ideological and cultural divides; instead you decided you'd rather aggravate those divides. And you got rewarded with Biden. Congratulations!

Because my avatar on a small political forum trumps my offline registration and my 8 years of working for Democratic candidates. I was originally a D until House leadership started taking shots at the left - even after Pelosi demanded a ceasefire.

As for the whole Biden thing, he's a solid consolation prize.

OK: Your state's former Republican Party chairman is absolutely more of a Democrat than you are IF he/she is actively supporting the Biden campaign and doing everything they can to stop Trump while you continue to fight dead primary battles online while declaring yourself an "independent."

That's really not that complicated.

Anyone too embarrassed to proudly call themselves a Democrat is part of the problem, you see. You are directly playing to the Republican idea that Democrats are weak and divided and can't even bring themselves to proudly identify with their own party. That is a huge part of the reason I detest Bernie and don't think much more kindly of you.

I would never use the word "comrade," by the way, and would STRONGLY advise anyone claiming to represent the Democratic Party against that. It's part of the reason Bernie lost, you see. No one is asking you to give you your "lifeblood" either -- Jesus, why do commies have to be so dramatic about absolutely everything? -- just that you do your part to stop the most destructive administration in recent American history without whining about it the whole way. Should be a nobrainer.

 

He says all this like I haven't been vocally backing Biden for the past 3 months. In fact, I've probably been harsher on Bernie since then than I have our nominee! You'll generally find my takes to be reasoned - my takes on Bernie vs. Warren have actually earned praise from the Warren hacks, and I'm generally on good terms with the more reasonable members of the anti-Bernie clique.

But never mind all that. I must be a communist #BernieOrBuster all because I said Bernie was a stronger candidate than Warren. I'm not sure what drugs you have to be on to draw that conclusion, but I want some.

As for my so-called "gloating," well indulge me a little. I got a LOT of gloating from Bernie people who were SO SURE he was going to win before Super Tuesday, and I STILL have not totally come down from the high that came when he lost badly and then was beaten to a pulp in several states he beat Hillary in. I'm trying to be the better man here, but my god it feels good to get a win and be proven totally right for a change. Especially after everyone thought you'd be wrong -- everyone here (who also mocked me for correctly predicting the KY 2019 governor race), people I know personally, even people in other forums who thought Bernie was the surefire nominee after New Hampshire. I stood alone saying "the guy tied there and got like 30% less than he did in 2016 -- are we sure we should be so quick to abandon Joe?" And I guess you could say I was rewarded for my faith. I ain't about to give it up now.

By the way, it takes a lot of guts to be a proud Democrat in Kentucky. Pretty easy I imagine by comparison to be an "independent" in New Hampshire. You're in a state where, for instance, simply saying that you believe LGBT people should have equal rights won't get you ostracized. You have the PRIVILEGE to be "independent." Meanwhile, out here in the real world, people are fighting for everything they can get. So forgive me if I find your "independent" party identification to be pretentious, obnoxious, and ignorant at best. Cowardly at worst. I frankly don't give two s--ts what you think about the Democratic Party or its nominee; you have voluntarily waived your right to have an opinion by refusing to join the party. That's your choice to do so, but don't think for a moment it won't cause people who ACTUALLY give everything they've got to helping this party in much more hostile states than New Hampshire to be a bit resentful of you.

Nah. We aren't indulging you for ****. The primary's over. You can keep dredging up the primary, rub your win in peoples' faces, alienate people, and lose. Alternatively, you can rally behind our nominee, work to beat the campaign that you claim to want to beat, win. Unlike you or Hillary, Joe Biden understands that "boo hoo, it's either me or Trump" doesn't work. You want to talk about building coalitions and working with people? That goes both ways, and you need us as much as we need you.

It's entitled children like you who made me ashamed to be a Democrat.

[MIKESOWELL]

Sanders might still be the front runner right now.