China to enact Article 23 National Security Law in Hong Kong
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Author Topic: China to enact Article 23 National Security Law in Hong Kong  (Read 2881 times)
urutzizu
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« on: May 21, 2020, 09:58:00 AM »

BBC: "China proposes controversial Hong Kong security law"

This is a significant development. To explain: Article 23 is a part of Hong Kongs basic law, that requires Hong Kong to pass a law that illegalizes treason, sedition, secession, spreading classified information and a host of other national security related offenses against the Chinese central government. All Attempts by the Hong Kong Government to introduce such a law through Hong Kongs own legal structure have failed, the last in 2003, when it was met with the largest protests until last year's Extradition protests, due to fears in Hong Kong that the Laws would be used against opponents of the Chinese Government.

Today, the Chinese government has announced it will bypass the Hong Kong legislative process, and pass the law through the National People's Congress beginning on Friday. The NPC is then expected to vote on the law at the end of the annual session, likely to be on May 28.

Until now, the Chinese Government held off from this step, and considered it a responsibility of the Hong Kong Government. However both the political situation in the City, and the geopolitical situation have changed things. This could cause even more turmoil in Hong Kong (how protests are affected by Covid-19 is an unknown), and it could significantly impact the imminent review of the US of Hong Kong's economic special status under HKHRDA. It is also yet another shift by the CCP towards a nationalist course as opposed to an economically-focused one.
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Joseph Cao
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« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2020, 10:50:36 AM »

There isn't much else to add that hasn't already been said here, at least for the moment. A Beijing source has said the new law will specifically aim to ban all "seditious activities aimed at toppling the central government" as well as "external interference" (as interpreted by the authorities), which together would formally criminalise basically every form of protest seen during the past year.

And to be more precise, the actual legislation would be written after the NPC votes on what would technically be a resolution to introduce a new national-security law, which gives the NPC's Standing Committee plenty of time to hammer out its details. Unfortunately and ironically, the Chinese government has learned from the 2003 protests and used the unrest arising from their previous attempt to push through an overreaching law in 2019 as a pretext to pass an even more overreaching law by fiat. Definitely not a good place for Hong Kong's pro-democracy movement to find itself in, though the extent to which this will affect the protest movement or the September legislative elections remains to be seen.
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Santander
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« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2020, 01:38:48 PM »

One country, two systems. (1997-2020)
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dead0man
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« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2020, 02:08:33 PM »

Bad guys are going to do bad guy stuff.

How will our PRC apologists handle this?  my guess is ignore.
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Dereich
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« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2020, 02:14:16 PM »
« Edited: May 21, 2020, 02:54:03 PM by Dereich »

I wonder if this would be sufficient to get Hong Kong's special trade status in the US revoked. It is supposed to be once HK no longer enjoys "sufficient autonomy" from the PRC. As I recall, the previous report found that autonomy was "sufficient but diminished."
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jaymichaud
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« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2020, 02:15:23 PM »

China is asshole.
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brucejoel99
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« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2020, 02:31:30 PM »

This title should be "China to annex Hong Kong & eliminate democracy 27 years earlier than promised."
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It’s so Joever
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« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2020, 02:50:49 PM »

Bad guys are going to do bad guy stuff.

How will our PRC apologists handle this?  my guess is ignore.
Hey, you called me a PRC apologist once because I said their Covid-19 response was better than ours. By your definition, most of the World outside of the US is full of “PRC apologists” (never mind the fact that I hate the PRC and think Taiwan is a real country and that the Uyger genocide is grounds for more sanctions...etc because China always bad and anyone who says otherwise is paid by Xi)
Anyways, not much to say about this, other than China trying to take as much control of HK as possible.
As someone who supports free speech when it doesn’t harm other people (it’s clear PRC will enforce national security as anything that even slightly disagrees with the government) , I am dismayed and condemn these actions.
I guess they thought that while the US screws up its Covid response, they could pull this s**t off without people noticing.
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Atlas Has Shrugged
ChairmanSanchez
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« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2020, 03:15:06 PM »

Bad guys are going to do bad guy stuff.

How will our PRC apologists handle this?  my guess is ignore.
Hey, you called me a PRC apologist once because I said their Covid-19 response was better than ours. By your definition, most of the World outside of the US is full of “PRC apologists” (never mind the fact that I hate the PRC and think Taiwan is a real country and that the Uyger genocide is grounds for more sanctions...etc because China always bad and anyone who says otherwise is paid by Xi)
Anyways, not much to say about this, other than China trying to take as much control of HK as possible.
As someone who supports free speech when it doesn’t harm other people (it’s clear PRC will enforce national security as anything that even slightly disagrees with the government) , I am dismayed and condemn these actions.
I guess they thought that while the US screws up its Covid response, they could pull this s**t off without people noticing.

People were padlocked into their apartments and starved to death. Is that what you want?
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It’s so Joever
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« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2020, 04:45:15 PM »

Bad guys are going to do bad guy stuff.

How will our PRC apologists handle this?  my guess is ignore.
Hey, you called me a PRC apologist once because I said their Covid-19 response was better than ours. By your definition, most of the World outside of the US is full of “PRC apologists” (never mind the fact that I hate the PRC and think Taiwan is a real country and that the Uyger genocide is grounds for more sanctions...etc because China always bad and anyone who says otherwise is paid by Xi)
Anyways, not much to say about this, other than China trying to take as much control of HK as possible.
As someone who supports free speech when it doesn’t harm other people (it’s clear PRC will enforce national security as anything that even slightly disagrees with the government) , I am dismayed and condemn these actions.
I guess they thought that while the US screws up its Covid response, they could pull this s**t off without people noticing.

People were padlocked into their apartments and starved to death. Is that what you want?
Honestly, had we done such in March in only New York (the epicenter) and Washington, we would be better off today than our horrid excuse of a response.
But that’s a loaded question, it’s like me asking you and Dead0 if you want hundreds of thousands of Americans dead, overwhelmed hospital systems, and children/young adults developing long term complications which will be a burden upon our healthcare system for life.
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Atlas Has Shrugged
ChairmanSanchez
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« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2020, 04:46:45 PM »

Bad guys are going to do bad guy stuff.

How will our PRC apologists handle this?  my guess is ignore.
Hey, you called me a PRC apologist once because I said their Covid-19 response was better than ours. By your definition, most of the World outside of the US is full of “PRC apologists” (never mind the fact that I hate the PRC and think Taiwan is a real country and that the Uyger genocide is grounds for more sanctions...etc because China always bad and anyone who says otherwise is paid by Xi)
Anyways, not much to say about this, other than China trying to take as much control of HK as possible.
As someone who supports free speech when it doesn’t harm other people (it’s clear PRC will enforce national security as anything that even slightly disagrees with the government) , I am dismayed and condemn these actions.
I guess they thought that while the US screws up its Covid response, they could pull this s**t off without people noticing.

People were padlocked into their apartments and starved to death. Is that what you want?
Honestly, had we taken such measures in March, we would be better off today. But that’s a loaded question, it’s like me asking you and Dead0 if you want hundreds of thousands of Americans dead, overwhelmed hospital systems, and children/young adults developing long term complications which will be a burden upon our healthcare system for life.
So...you do agree with the CCP padlocking grandmothers in their homes?
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It’s so Joever
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« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2020, 04:47:52 PM »

Bad guys are going to do bad guy stuff.

How will our PRC apologists handle this?  my guess is ignore.
Hey, you called me a PRC apologist once because I said their Covid-19 response was better than ours. By your definition, most of the World outside of the US is full of “PRC apologists” (never mind the fact that I hate the PRC and think Taiwan is a real country and that the Uyger genocide is grounds for more sanctions...etc because China always bad and anyone who says otherwise is paid by Xi)
Anyways, not much to say about this, other than China trying to take as much control of HK as possible.
As someone who supports free speech when it doesn’t harm other people (it’s clear PRC will enforce national security as anything that even slightly disagrees with the government) , I am dismayed and condemn these actions.
I guess they thought that while the US screws up its Covid response, they could pull this s**t off without people noticing.

People were padlocked into their apartments and starved to death. Is that what you want?
Honestly, had we taken such measures in March, we would be better off today. But that’s a loaded question, it’s like me asking you and Dead0 if you want hundreds of thousands of Americans dead, overwhelmed hospital systems, and children/young adults developing long term complications which will be a burden upon our healthcare system for life.
So...you do agree with the CCP padlocking grandmothers in their homes?
So...you do agree with letting thousands of grandmothers choke to death on their own bodily fluids?

(Here is a tip for next time, don’t bring grandma into the conversation when you want to reopen too quickly and let Covid spread, it won’t help you!)
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Atlas Has Shrugged
ChairmanSanchez
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« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2020, 04:50:20 PM »

Bad guys are going to do bad guy stuff.

How will our PRC apologists handle this?  my guess is ignore.
Hey, you called me a PRC apologist once because I said their Covid-19 response was better than ours. By your definition, most of the World outside of the US is full of “PRC apologists” (never mind the fact that I hate the PRC and think Taiwan is a real country and that the Uyger genocide is grounds for more sanctions...etc because China always bad and anyone who says otherwise is paid by Xi)
Anyways, not much to say about this, other than China trying to take as much control of HK as possible.
As someone who supports free speech when it doesn’t harm other people (it’s clear PRC will enforce national security as anything that even slightly disagrees with the government) , I am dismayed and condemn these actions.
I guess they thought that while the US screws up its Covid response, they could pull this s**t off without people noticing.

People were padlocked into their apartments and starved to death. Is that what you want?
Honestly, had we taken such measures in March, we would be better off today. But that’s a loaded question, it’s like me asking you and Dead0 if you want hundreds of thousands of Americans dead, overwhelmed hospital systems, and children/young adults developing long term complications which will be a burden upon our healthcare system for life.
So...you do agree with the CCP padlocking grandmothers in their homes?
So...do you agree with letting thousands of grandmothers choke to death on their own bodily fluids?
Ok dude now you’re just embarrassing yourself. What else makes you piss the bed? I’m curious now.
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It’s so Joever
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« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2020, 04:54:33 PM »

When all else fails, go for a personal attack and hope nobody notices you have no good response.
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Atlas Has Shrugged
ChairmanSanchez
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« Reply #14 on: May 21, 2020, 07:31:37 PM »

When all else fails, go for a personal attack and hope nobody notices you have no good response.
I don’t think I owe you one, because you have demonstrated support for policies implemented in China that are frankly flat out sociopathic.
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It’s so Joever
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« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2020, 07:39:59 PM »

When all else fails, go for a personal attack and hope nobody notices you have no good response.
I don’t think I owe you one, because you have demonstrated support for policies implemented in China that are frankly flat out sociopathic.
The “let’s kill grandma for the Dow” guy really doesn’t get to talk about sociopathy.
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PSOL
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« Reply #16 on: May 21, 2020, 07:40:38 PM »

When all else fails, go for a personal attack and hope nobody notices you have no good response.
I don’t think I owe you one, because you have demonstrated support for policies implemented in China that are frankly flat out sociopathic.
That’s a bit hyperbolic.
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ChairmanSanchez
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« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2020, 07:46:16 PM »

When all else fails, go for a personal attack and hope nobody notices you have no good response.
I don’t think I owe you one, because you have demonstrated support for policies implemented in China that are frankly flat out sociopathic.
The “let’s kill grandma for the Dow” guy really doesn’t get to talk about sociopathy.
What are you going to do about it?

When all else fails, go for a personal attack and hope nobody notices you have no good response.
I don’t think I owe you one, because you have demonstrated support for policies implemented in China that are frankly flat out sociopathic.
That’s a bit hyperbolic.
His whole act is hyperbolic, it's the only thing he's apparently able to understand..
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MustCrushCapitalism
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« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2020, 11:20:02 PM »

Bad guys are going to do bad guy stuff.

How will our PRC apologists handle this?  my guess is ignore.

Why? Is this a super bad thing? HK is failing its constitutional duties. They had a chance to do it themselves. Without a law like this, HK citizens could get away with some grave offenses against the central government. With the presence of foreign intelligence operations in HK I don't think anyone with a brain would want to take that risk.

So...you do agree with the CCP padlocking grandmothers in their homes?

If a dude tripped on a set of stairs and fell on his nuts, some folks would be out here writing: "So... do you agree with the CCP forcibly sterilizing dissidents?"

Yeah, bad stuff happened sometimes with the lockdowns, obviously not coming from the central government. Hubei natives faced discrimination in some residential communities, the government spoke out against it, people on social media spoke out against it. I'm sure that there was some ayi somewhere who wouldn't comply with the lockdown so the other people at the residential complex locked the door on her from the outside instead of just sending her to jail. It's a huge country. The national government isn't the same thing as "the CCP" either - CCP members are normal members of society driving your Didi, your civically inclined coworkers, the small shop owner, one of the guys you eat hot pot with on weekends. Some local party branches definitely do some stupid sh**t with the autonomy they have, and the residential communities - functioning similarly to American homeowners' associations in a more urban context - had some of the dumbest policies. I am lucky mine handled everything really well, though.
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« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2020, 11:51:18 PM »
« Edited: May 21, 2020, 11:54:26 PM by The scissors of false economy »

Without a law like this, HK citizens could get away with some grave offenses against the central government.

Oh no, what a nightmare.
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GlobeSoc
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« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2020, 11:53:01 PM »

Bad guys are going to do bad guy stuff.

How will our PRC apologists handle this?  my guess is ignore.

Why? Is this a super bad thing? HK is failing its constitutional duties. They had a chance to do it themselves. Without a law like this, HK citizens could get away with some grave offenses against the central government. With the presence of foreign intelligence operations in HK I don't think anyone with a brain would want to take that risk.

Grave offenses like what?
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MustCrushCapitalism
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« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2020, 12:02:19 AM »


This is what I hate about talking about this kind of thing with Americans. The same principles applied to the United States would be entirely uncontroversial - look at how crazy Americans went over Maria Butina allegedly spying for Russia. There's a risk of spying, of terrorism, of doing things to harm the country. You've got people parading in the streets of Hong Kong committing racist attacks against people speaking Putonghua and holding up banners asking for Trump to send in the troops. Imagine if people in Texas were getting beaten for speaking English by rallies of people holding Mexican flags and asking for AMLO to invade. That wouldn't even be an issue... because Texas State doesn't lack laws against treason.
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Nathan
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« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2020, 12:06:40 AM »

The same principles applied to the United States would be entirely uncontroversial

And why is that, do you think?

Quote
Imagine if people in Texas were getting beaten for speaking English by rallies of people holding Mexican flags and asking for AMLO to invade.

Why would I imagine that? I'm trying to masturbate less, not more.
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GlobeSoc
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« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2020, 12:14:49 AM »


This is what I hate about talking about this kind of thing with Americans. The same principles applied to the United States would be entirely uncontroversial - look at how crazy Americans went over Maria Butina allegedly spying for Russia. There's a risk of spying, of terrorism, of doing things to harm the country. You've got people parading in the streets of Hong Kong committing racist attacks against people speaking Putonghua and holding up banners asking for Trump to send in the troops. Imagine if people in Texas were getting beaten for speaking English by rallies of people holding Mexican flags and asking for AMLO to invade. That wouldn't even be an issue... because Texas State doesn't lack laws against treason.

imagine supporting high rents and human rights violations over such things as t e r r i t o r i a l i n t e g r i t y
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Joseph Cao
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« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2020, 12:50:34 AM »

I wonder if this would be sufficient to get Hong Kong's special trade status in the US revoked. It is supposed to be once HK no longer enjoys "sufficient autonomy" from the PRC. As I recall, the previous report found that autonomy was "sufficient but diminished."

I believe it would; I haven't looked over the finalised legislation that was passed last year, but my recollection of the law is that it would take effect at most six months after the special panel determined that Hong Kong has lost "sufficient autonomy", which it might well do if the national-security law is as draconian as some in Hong Kong are expecting – conditional upon that being true, it would therefore take effect no later than the end of this year.

This is what I hate about talking about this kind of thing with Americans. The same principles applied to the United States would be entirely uncontroversial - look at how crazy Americans went over Maria Butina allegedly spying for Russia. There's a risk of spying, of terrorism, of doing things to harm the country. You've got people parading in the streets of Hong Kong committing racist attacks against people speaking Putonghua and holding up banners asking for Trump to send in the troops. Imagine if people in Texas were getting beaten for speaking English by rallies of people holding Mexican flags and asking for AMLO to invade. That wouldn't even be an issue... because Texas State doesn't lack laws against treason.

While that is an otherwise reasonable analogy, I'm going to be pedantic for a moment and point out that that would not be treason as defined by the U.S. Constitution. I am fully aware that China and most of the Hong Kong Executive Council feel differently about that, and that the protestors are within their legal jurisdiction. Doesn't stop people on here from having an opinion about this that's consistent with their interpretation of the First Amendment as it applies to their own country.

Why? Is this a super bad thing? HK is failing its constitutional duties. They had a chance to do it themselves. Without a law like this, HK citizens could get away with some grave offenses against the central government. With the presence of foreign intelligence operations in HK I don't think anyone with a brain would want to take that risk.

There's nothing particularly wrong with a country enacting its own national security laws, per se, but the argument for Hong Kong – as a special administrative region – "failing its constitutional duties" leans quite heavily on the unwritten premise that the 2003 proposal and subsequent ones failed precisely because Hong Kong citizens and the opposition expressed a strong opinion against the idea of overreaching national rule through protest, which up till last November was the only political means available to them. The concern over this legislation, from within Hong Kong, is that too much latitude will be given to law enforcement and the central government to interpret "acts of treason, secession, sedition, subversion against the central people’s government, or theft of state secrets" as they see fit (not an unreasonable viewpoint, given the events of the past year), which – if applied to even the most benign protests of last June against an unpopular extradition bill that the Council at the time fully intended to implement – would curb individual rights as enshrined in the Basic Law to the point of absorbing Hong Kong into the wider national legal structure, in contradiction to "one country, two systems". This also does not begin to cover the very clear signals from the National People's Congress, including today's opening speech, that it apparently has no intention of following the other parts of the Basic Law while implementing Article 23.
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