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  Talk Elections
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  Political Debate (Moderator: Uncle Ruckus, No Relation.)
  How would you fix American policing
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Author Topic: How would you fix American policing  (Read 1442 times)
dead0man
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« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2020, 02:36:33 pm »

1) Give the individual officer benefit of the doubt. They personally are influenced by their training and the amount of stress on their job.
-Brings another debate if cops should really be trained to shoot to kill?
American (and most other places) train their cops to "shoot to stop the threat", not "shoot to kill"...though it is often the same thing in practice.  "shooting to wound" is Hollywood nonsense.  Guns should only be used in life threatening situations, shooting a leg is not going to stop a determined human with a weapon from using that weapon.

Quote
2) Destroy small municipalities that depend on fines for revenue. Gives bad imagine to police officers.
-Brings another debate of restructuring fine systems. The current system obviously hurts poor and minorities far greater than most whites and higher income persons.
yes, that would be a huge help to our nations poor who often get caught in a loop of fines and late fees.  Our courts should not act like shady credit agencies.
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Fuzzy Bear
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« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2020, 11:06:31 am »

The way to fix problems with American policing begins with dialing back over-criminalization of our statutes.

Crimes should reflect someone having being deprived of a right (life, liberty, property).

Penalties should be proportionate and not never-ending.  Criminal records (in many cases) ought to automatically expire as bankruptcies do if a person is out of custody and commits no new offenses.

Many crimes ought to be civil matters.  Many felonies ought to be misdemeanors.

And, above all, end the War on Drugs.
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peenie_weenie
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« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2020, 12:01:14 pm »

The way to fix problems with American policing begins with dialing back over-criminalization of our statutes.

Crimes should reflect someone having being deprived of a right (life, liberty, property).

Penalties should be proportionate and not never-ending.  Criminal records (in many cases) ought to automatically expire as bankruptcies do if a person is out of custody and commits no new offenses.

Many crimes ought to be civil matters.  Many felonies ought to be misdemeanors.

And, above all, end the War on Drugs.


I don't disagree with any of these but can you give some examples of over-criminalized statutes?
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Antifacist Ghost of Ruin
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« Reply #28 on: May 26, 2020, 09:04:43 am »

1) Give the individual officer benefit of the doubt. They personally are influenced by their training and the amount of stress on their job.
-Brings another debate if cops should really be trained to shoot to kill?
American (and most other places) train their cops to "shoot to stop the threat", not "shoot to kill"...though it is often the same thing in practice.  "shooting to wound" is Hollywood nonsense.  Guns should only be used in life threatening situations, shooting a leg is not going to stop a determined human with a weapon from using that weapon.

Not to mention, any accurate use of firearms in self defense requires constant practice. Maintaining profiency typically takes at least two range sessions every week, with additional body/awareness/motion practice outside of that. Most police officers train with their weapon twice a year.

Cops with guns make me personally nervous, more than anything else because I don't trust them to have the training to use them responsibly.
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bronz4141
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« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2020, 04:36:14 pm »

If there is no police, you get George Zimmermans and Amy Coopers.
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Grassr00ts
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« Reply #30 on: May 28, 2020, 02:22:59 pm »

I wouldn't. In fact, I would give them more opportunities to enforce the law without intervention.
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bronz4141
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« Reply #31 on: May 28, 2020, 06:10:26 pm »

I wouldn't. In fact, I would give them more opportunities to enforce the law without intervention.

You don't understand that there is a current problem with the way how policing operates.....
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Grassr00ts
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« Reply #32 on: May 28, 2020, 06:19:29 pm »

I wouldn't. In fact, I would give them more opportunities to enforce the law without intervention.

You don't understand that there is a current problem with the way how policing operates.....

I see no problem at all.
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bronz4141
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« Reply #33 on: May 28, 2020, 06:40:42 pm »

On Staten Island, it is suicide not to be a politician and not receive an endorsement from police unions. You can't win on SI without it.

Some areas that produce Max Rose, Eric Vitaliano, Michael McMahon require it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/19/nyregion/michael-mcmahon-staten-island-district-attorney.html
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RINO Tom
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« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2020, 10:48:00 pm »

Pretty broad, I guess (i.e., I am not qualified to "fix" this), but it seems that it would be in everyone's best interest to have the national narrative be VERY clear about two things:

1) Officers who abuse their power (and, provided there is evidence to show that they did, like in Minneapolis) WILL be prosecuted to the fullest extent and punished severely.

2) Police officers, AS A WHOLE, are respected by society, and we are thankful for their service.

This sends the clear message that we will not let the worst officers be unaccountable for their atrocities, and we will not let mob hysteria tarnish the reputation of a much needed and valued arm of our many local governments.  The narrative should, of course, socially outcast the loony tunes who can't see how obviously non-controversial both points should be to accept.
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bronz4141
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« Reply #35 on: May 28, 2020, 11:57:56 pm »

1. Fire any police officer who kills anyone, anyone, regardless of race, unarmed.

2. Charge the police officer to a maximum death penalty.

3. Prevent police unions from making political endorsements. POLICE WORK FOR ALL AMERICANS, NOT JUST RIGHT LEANING AMERICANS. ACT LIKE IT.

4. Police officers: DROP THE ATTITUDE DURING ENCOUNTERS. You work for the people. Don't have an attitude with a citizen and vice versa with a citizen and a cop.

5. ANY POLICE OFFICER WHO MAKES RACIST/HOMOPHOBIC COMMENTS ON FACEBOOK OR OTHER ONLINE SOCIAL MEDIA SHOULD BE FIRED AND CONTAINED

6. DE-ESCALATION. USE FORCE UNLESS ABSOLUTELY NEEDED. YOU DO NOT NEED TO BRANDISH GUN ON SUSPECT UNLESS NECESSARY

7. AMERICA NEEDS TO REALIZE THAT WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO WITH RACE. WE HAVE OVERCAME, BUT WE HAVE A FAR WAY TO GO

8. POLICE OFFICERS NEED TO REALIZE THEY ARE BAD APPLES AND ROOT IT OUT. KEEP YOUR POLITICAL VIEWS OUT OF MIND AT WORK.
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Orwell
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« Reply #36 on: May 30, 2020, 04:54:35 pm »

1. Fire any police officer who kills anyone, anyone, regardless of race, unarmed.

2. Charge the police officer to a maximum death penalty.

3. Prevent police unions from making political endorsements. POLICE WORK FOR ALL AMERICANS, NOT JUST RIGHT LEANING AMERICANS. ACT LIKE IT.

4. Police officers: DROP THE ATTITUDE DURING ENCOUNTERS. You work for the people. Don't have an attitude with a citizen and vice versa with a citizen and a cop.

5. ANY POLICE OFFICER WHO MAKES RACIST/HOMOPHOBIC COMMENTS ON FACEBOOK OR OTHER ONLINE SOCIAL MEDIA SHOULD BE FIRED AND CONTAINED

6. DE-ESCALATION. USE FORCE UNLESS ABSOLUTELY NEEDED. YOU DO NOT NEED TO BRANDISH GUN ON SUSPECT UNLESS NECESSARY

7. AMERICA NEEDS TO REALIZE THAT WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO WITH RACE. WE HAVE OVERCAME, BUT WE HAVE A FAR WAY TO GO

8. POLICE OFFICERS NEED TO REALIZE THEY ARE BAD APPLES AND ROOT IT OUT. KEEP YOUR POLITICAL VIEWS OUT OF MIND AT WORK.


1. Not gonna work

2. These are state cases most states have abolished the death penalty if someone murders a cop they won't get the death penalty but if a cop kills someone they get the death penalty/

3. Suppression of Free Speech & the freedom of association violation of the 1st amendment

4. How would you even enforce this?

5. Freedom of Speech, this could be easily abused to silence dissent. Violation of the 1st amendment, in both the idea of freedom of speech and freedom of association, along with the privileges and immunities clause of the 14th amendment.

6. Again Bronz I'm pretty sure you don't know how the police work, in many police department officers, are required to report when they brandish their sidearm. Instances, where officers brandish their firearm, are much rarer than you're trying to make out.

7. How does this solve anything?

8. Again you can't enforce punishments thought crimes.
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bronz4141
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« Reply #37 on: May 30, 2020, 05:34:18 pm »

1. Fire any police officer who kills anyone, anyone, regardless of race, unarmed.

2. Charge the police officer to a maximum death penalty.

3. Prevent police unions from making political endorsements. POLICE WORK FOR ALL AMERICANS, NOT JUST RIGHT LEANING AMERICANS. ACT LIKE IT.

4. Police officers: DROP THE ATTITUDE DURING ENCOUNTERS. You work for the people. Don't have an attitude with a citizen and vice versa with a citizen and a cop.

5. ANY POLICE OFFICER WHO MAKES RACIST/HOMOPHOBIC COMMENTS ON FACEBOOK OR OTHER ONLINE SOCIAL MEDIA SHOULD BE FIRED AND CONTAINED

6. DE-ESCALATION. USE FORCE UNLESS ABSOLUTELY NEEDED. YOU DO NOT NEED TO BRANDISH GUN ON SUSPECT UNLESS NECESSARY

7. AMERICA NEEDS TO REALIZE THAT WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO WITH RACE. WE HAVE OVERCAME, BUT WE HAVE A FAR WAY TO GO

8. POLICE OFFICERS NEED TO REALIZE THEY ARE BAD APPLES AND ROOT IT OUT. KEEP YOUR POLITICAL VIEWS OUT OF MIND AT WORK.


1. Not gonna work

2. These are state cases most states have abolished the death penalty if someone murders a cop they won't get the death penalty but if a cop kills someone they get the death penalty/

3. Suppression of Free Speech & the freedom of association violation of the 1st amendment

4. How would you even enforce this?

5. Freedom of Speech, this could be easily abused to silence dissent. Violation of the 1st amendment, in both the idea of freedom of speech and freedom of association, along with the privileges and immunities clause of the 14th amendment.

6. Again Bronz I'm pretty sure you don't know how the police work, in many police department officers, are required to report when they brandish their sidearm. Instances, where officers brandish their firearm, are much rarer than you're trying to make out.

7. How does this solve anything?

8. Again you can't enforce punishments thought crimes.

What are your solutions?
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Santander
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« Reply #38 on: May 30, 2020, 07:11:43 pm »

Privatize the police. (already exist in the form of rail police)
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whitesox130
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« Reply #39 on: May 30, 2020, 11:05:06 pm »

As this is a national problem, all these recommendations are at the federal level.

1. Break down the blue wall of silence. Teachers are mandatory reporters for child abuse. If they even have a suspicion that a child has been abused, they are held criminally liable if they do not report it. Certainly they would be legally compelled to report violence against a child by another teacher that they saw with their own eyes.

Police officers should carry the same burden; an officer who sees another officer use unnecessary force or any other form of misconduct should be held criminally liable if they do not report it, with the penalty being a high-level misdemeanor including fines and possible imprisonment and the immediate, mandatory, and permanent surrender of the badge; i.e. the person may never serve as a police officer again. This level of penalty is necessary to match the current penalties cops face if they DO report misconduct in order to force police culture to accept whistleblowing.

2. Decriminalization of nonviolent and minor drug offenses and many other offenses as well. Also legalization of marijuana. A ton of excessive/asymmetric responses by cops have to do with drug offenses. They also turn to a of otherwise-law-abiding Americans into felons, often forcing them back into a life of crime due to how hard it is for a felon to find a job.

3. Fund police departments entirely with tax money. Money from fines, etc. stemming from tickets and arrests should go to the state, where local authorities won’t see the “rewards”. Cars impounded and property seized should also become state property, as should any money derived from the subsequent sale of said property.

4. Any officer who trains other officers and teaches inappropriate/illegal behaviors such as kneeling on an offender’s neck will be immediately dismissed and may never serve as a police officer again.

5. Decrease the penalties for most nonviolent offenses (including traffic tickets, etc.), but legally compel officers to file the highest possible charge. Currently officers have some discretion which forces people to “play nice” with them in order to avoid a ticket or get a smaller one. This often results in searches of vehicles without a warrant which violate the 4th amendment.

6. End civil asset forfeiture.

7. Mandatory dash and body cameras for every officer the entire time the officer is on duty. If any camera stops working, the officer must return to the station and get a replacement. Officers may have the option to keep a spare camera in the car in case this happens depending on funding. This is not only for protection of citizens in case of police misconduct but also to protect officers from false accusations of the same.
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jaymichaud
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« Reply #40 on: May 31, 2020, 11:09:45 am »

Community policing, kinda like the shomrim in Haredi areas of Brooklyn.
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Meclazine
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« Reply #41 on: June 08, 2020, 11:35:46 pm »

You did what Australia did.

You have an independent Royal Commission into "Deaths in Custody" of black citizens.

Then you implement the recommendations of that investigation into the Police Force.

Western Australia did it back in 1991.
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MB
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« Reply #42 on: June 09, 2020, 01:29:59 am »

You have an independent Royal Commission
sorry but I thought we got rid of those back in 1776
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amanda dermichknutscht
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« Reply #43 on: June 09, 2020, 07:01:25 am »

Police officers in America shoot too often. In 2018, American police officers fatally shot 1,000 people comparted to 11 people in Germany. That is absurd, considering that the US population is only four times as large as Germany's.

Above all, training is insufficient. Compared with other developed nations, police training in the US takes a ridiculously short time. Police recruits in other countries learn how to solve disputes with the least amount of violence. I do not know the specifics of American police recruitment, but if the US is not nearly 100-times more dangerous than Germany, then American police officers tend to be more trigger-happy. Which is horrible.
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Senator tack50 (Lab-Lincoln)
tack50
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« Reply #44 on: June 12, 2020, 06:09:25 am »

Police officers in America shoot too often. In 2018, American police officers fatally shot 1,000 people comparted to 11 people in Germany. That is absurd, considering that the US population is only four times as large as Germany's.

Above all, training is insufficient. Compared with other developed nations, police training in the US takes a ridiculously short time. Police recruits in other countries learn how to solve disputes with the least amount of violence. I do not know the specifics of American police recruitment, but if the US is not nearly 100-times more dangerous than Germany, then American police officers tend to be more trigger-happy. Which is horrible.

To be fair, I guess part of it is the fact that the US has a ton more guns. When everyone can have a gun, it is much riskier to arrest someone and I can see why American policemen are more trigger happy.

Of course that probably does not explain the entire gap or even a majority of it, but it is still a factor.
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badger
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« Reply #45 on: June 29, 2020, 09:04:10 pm »

More cops.  More cops with guns.  More cops in high-crime neighborhoods.  More cops in schools.  Harsher sentences for small-time gang-bangers and drug peddlers.

This seems like it will accomplish the opposite
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badger
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« Reply #46 on: June 29, 2020, 09:09:11 pm »

Neuter Place unions. Institute wrong civilian review boards with oversight, actual teeth, and subpoena power. Make body cams damn near mandatory Prosser's to have, including funding for those few small police departments that still don't have it, and remove sovereign immunity for any wrongdoing surpassing negligence.

Oh, and engage in the most aggressive affirmative action program the country has seen. I'm generally ambivalent too mildly supportive of affirmative action programs but by and large the outcome of such programs merely determines who gets hired or promoted. Having such lily-white major city police department's policing largely manure diarias - - Columbus and Cincy PD both come to mine- - it is a proven recipe for disaster. I'm not saying we can't have crappy Black and Hispanic cops. We do. But a chronic problem with white cops brutalizing black people when you've got a 90 + percent White Law Enforcement body with its own distinct culture that tends to view black males without badges as the enemy oh, it's just messed up.
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Misesian
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« Reply #47 on: June 29, 2020, 11:30:32 pm »

The way to fix problems with American policing begins with dialing back over-criminalization of our statutes.

Crimes should reflect someone having being deprived of a right (life, liberty, property).

Penalties should be proportionate and not never-ending.  Criminal records (in many cases) ought to automatically expire as bankruptcies do if a person is out of custody and commits no new offenses.

Many crimes ought to be civil matters.  Many felonies ought to be misdemeanors.

And, above all, end the War on Drugs.


and they called this good man right here a racist on atlas. sickening.
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Buffywawa
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« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2020, 10:35:27 pm »

Maybe start with not hiring people who don’t even have GEDs
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Fuzzy Bear
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« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2020, 05:26:09 pm »

The way to fix problems with American policing begins with dialing back over-criminalization of our statutes.

Crimes should reflect someone having being deprived of a right (life, liberty, property).

Penalties should be proportionate and not never-ending.  Criminal records (in many cases) ought to automatically expire as bankruptcies do if a person is out of custody and commits no new offenses.

Many crimes ought to be civil matters.  Many felonies ought to be misdemeanors.

And, above all, end the War on Drugs.


I don't disagree with any of these but can you give some examples of over-criminalized statutes?

"Overcriminalization" is the main feeder of large numbers of people in prison and on probation, saddled with criminal records for life (and, often, FELONY criminal records for life).  

Some examples are:

^^^Making a 3rd Petty Theft and all subsequent Petty Thefts felonies

^^^Making a third Driving While License Suspended a felony (up from a misdemeanor)

^^^Making it a criminal offense (even a felony) to be delinquent in child support

^^^Hate Crimes (increasing penalties for acts that are already illegal)

^^^Defining persons who participate in a lesser crime (e. g. Purchase of Cocaine) as parties to a
       more serious crime  (e. g. Felony Murder when one of your partners in the drug buy decides to
       jack the drug dealer when you didn't plan it and the deal "goes bad")

^^^Making a felony of possession of small amounts of narcotics

^^^Making a felony of cultivation of marijuana, even when it's clearly for personal use

^^^Felonizing child abuse and neglect, even when child protective services and Dependency Courts
       with the authority to remove children is operative.  By child abuse and neglect, I am not talking  
       about extreme physical abuse, egregious neglect, or any sort of improper sexual behavior; I am
       talking about improper corporal punishment, leaving a child home for a short time when there is
       no caregiver which were once misdemeanors under Florida law and in many states as well.  (This
       example of overcriminalization involves situations where the Courts ARE involved and DO act in
       an affirmative manner to remove children and protect them.

The other acts of overcriminalization generally involve "hitting people in the driver license".  Clerks of Court in most states have the ability to suspend driver licenses for unpaid fines and fees, even for non-traffic cases.  This should not be, and there should be always be a pathway for people to get their driver license.  Having a driver license may be a privilege, and not a right (as many people sanctimoniously point out), but for most Americans, it is a practical necessity.

The issue of fines and fees levied on poor defendants is also another issue. There have been many lies about the shooting of Michael Brown in Ferguson, MO.  "Hands up!  Don't shoot!" was a lie, and this has been demonstrated.  But the complaints of the citizens of Ferguson, MO, of a financially oppressive system of fines and fees aimed at poor defendants (often for misdemeanors) is a very legitimate claim of oppression.  Draconian court fees are often imposed, and often fall on poorer defendants (with penalties if they don't pay) because municipalities don't want to raise taxes, or their tax base has been decimated.  This part is not acceptable.  Going forward, our criminal justice system ought to factor in the reality that (A) poor people always have, and always will commit a higher proportion of criminal offenses, but (B) the financial penalties hit them harder.  What is needed is for society to come to grips with the fact that it is not humane to expect people to pay for their own punishment.  The cost of punishment should be borne by taxpayers.  And politicians need to be honest with people about this. This reform, in Ferguson, MO, and in other locales, is a badly needed reform.
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